There was no Britain till 1707! also about redcoats

[Didz]

Also, any idea what book that was?

I've had a scan of my bookshelves but I think its long gone and I can't be sure about the title or author. It was just a paperback I picked up in a second hand book shop for some holiday reading. As I recall it was set in the area around Table Top Mountain and was the story written from the natives viewpoint of the ('for want of a better word') geopolitical/diplomatic situation of the tribe that occupied the summit.

It was very well written and showed how the differences in cultural values made any sort of peaceful settlement virtually impossible. What was most noticeable was that the Boers seeking to avoid bloodshed actually tried very hard to negotiate with the chief of the tribe on the mountain, but completely failed to understand the problems he had in maintaining his position as head of the tribe.

For example, the Boar farmers were settling the land between the mountain and the river but were constantly having their cattle stolen by natives which had led to numerous violent confrontations. They went to the chief to get him to stop his tribe raiding the farms, and he accepted gifts etc. in return for agreeing to try. But he was completely powerless to stop the young men of the tribe raiding the farms as they needed the cattle to prove their manhood and win themselves warrior status and the right to marry. Had he tried to stop them he would have been challenged and probably killed, or exiled, but the Dutch couldn't understand that and so kept coming back complaining that he hadn't done anything.

One soon felt considerable respect and sympathy for the old chief who did try as best he could within the limits of his power to minimise the conflict between the white settlers and his warriors but the lack of any common ground made it virtually impossible, made worse by the fact that he didn't really understand why the Dutch farmers limited themselves to one spot anyway as it merely made their cattle easier to find and steal. His own were always well hidden and protected and he rarely had any problems.

Been trying to track it down for you on the internet without much success, all I recall is that the paperback had a picture of what looked like a Zule Warrior on the front cover. Which was actually why I first picked it up, I was expecting a light read about Rorkes Drift or something, but the preface was intriguing as it claimed to be the true story of the settlement of the area around Table Mountain.

[miotas]

I've had a scan of my bookshelves but I think its long gone and I can't be sure about the title or author. It was just a paperback I picked up in a second hand book shop for some holiday reading. As I recall it was set in the area around Table Top Mountain and was the story written from the natives viewpoint of the ('for want of a better word') geopolitical/diplomatic situation of the tribe that occupied the summit.

It was very well written and showed how the differences in cultural values made any sort of peaceful settlement virtually impossible. What was most noticeable was that the Boers seeking to avoid bloodshed actually tried very hard to negotiate with the chief of the tribe on the mountain, but completely failed to understand the problems he had in maintaining his position as head of the tribe.

For example, the Boar farmers were settling the land between the mountain and the river but were constantly having their cattle stolen by natives which had led to numerous violent confrontations. They went to the chief to get him to stop his tribe raiding the farms, and he accepted gifts etc. in return for agreeing to try. But he was completely powerless to stop the young men of the tribe raiding the farms as they needed the cattle to prove their manhood and win themselves warrior status and the right to marry. Had he tried to stop them he would have been challenged and probably killed, or exiled, but the Dutch couldn't understand that and so kept coming back complaining that he hadn't done anything.

One soon felt considerable respect and sympathy for the old chief who did try as best he could within the limits of his power to minimise the conflict between the white settlers and his warriors but the lack of any common ground made it virtually impossible, made worse by the fact that he didn't really understand why the Dutch farmers limited themselves to one spot anyway as it merely made their cattle easier to find and steal. His own were always well hidden and protected and he rarely had any problems.

Been trying to track it down for you on the internet without much success, all I recall is that the paperback had a picture of what looked like a Zule Warrior on the front cover. Which was actually why I first picked it up, I was expecting a light read about Rorkes Drift or something, but the preface was intriguing as it claimed to be the true story of the settlement of the area around Table Mountain.

Sounds similar to the situation in australia. The aboriginal peoples were mostly nomadic, so they would live off the land for a while unitl they had taken so much, and then move on to another area. Of course when the english showed up they bought their livestock with them and all of a sudden there were all these animals just standing around waiting to be eaten. So the aboriginals would just take them as they had no concept of ownership of animals, the animals were a part of the land, and they only "belonged" to those who caught them. Of course the english had a very different veiw of the matter and they would kill the "thief", and then the aboriginals would get very upset that their family member had been killed for no reason and things just went downhill from there.

Cultural differences made peaceful colonisation all but impossible.

I would have quite liked australia to be included, but an accurate portrayal would be all but impossible as there were hundreds of different tribes all over australia, but then again look at the mighty army of the inuit!

[Cheetah]

Very interesting discussion. Keep it up!

[Didz]

Very interesting discussion. Keep it up!

I think we've run out of things to discuss, anything you'd like to suggest?

[alpaca]

On that matter: I think Paradox found the perfect solution by including a history line in their game. You can play as England while Scotland was still independent and you can play as Britain afterwards. Simple and effective but probably too much historical research to ask of a company like CA who make mainstream games.

They also included all of the more important wars so you can have a Spanish War of Succession scenario, an American Revolt, a French Revolt, etc. (some of these are actually done using bookmarks for certain dates)

[Didz]

I'm actually having quite an interesting discussion on YouTube of all places, about the War of 1812. Bit outside the timeline for ETW, but its just amusing how skewed the average American's view is of this minor and rather pointless conflict during the Napoleonic Wars.