There was no Britain till 1707! also about redcoats

[alpaca]

On that matter: I think Paradox found the perfect solution by including a history line in their game. You can play as England while Scotland was still independent and you can play as Britain afterwards. Simple and effective but probably too much historical research to ask of a company like CA who make mainstream games.

They also included all of the more important wars so you can have a Spanish War of Succession scenario, an American Revolt, a French Revolt, etc. (some of these are actually done using bookmarks for certain dates)

[Didz]

I'm actually having quite an interesting discussion on YouTube of all places, about the War of 1812. Bit outside the timeline for ETW, but its just amusing how skewed the average American's view is of this minor and rather pointless conflict during the Napoleonic Wars.

[Calmarac]

There was no Britain till 1707!

Well, many of my fellow 'Brits' get confused over this, let alone the rest of the world. I think you mean there was no United Kingdom until 1707. The term "Britain" has been used since Roman times...

GREAT BRITAIN. Used by cartographers to denote the biggest of the British Isles, containing most but not all of England, Wales and Scotland. The usage goes back to Roman times ("Britannia Major", distinguished from "Britannia Minor", ie Brittany in France).

http://alt-usage-english.org/english...uk_et_al.shtml

“Great Britain” is a purely geographical expression, and has nothing to do with perceived national achievement - i.e. it doesn't mean we think we're "great" (Rule Britannia notwithstanding)

The official use of the word Great Britain dates from 1603 when James 1 united the crowns of England and Scotland and he called himself King of Great Britain

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle4271817.ece

From the OED -

"After the Old English period, Britain was used only as a historical term, until about the time of Henry VIII and Edward VI, when it came again into practical politics in connexion with the efforts made to unite England and Scotland; in 1604 James I was proclaimed 'King of Great Britain'; and this name was adopted for the United Kingdom, at the Union in 1707."

The United Kingdom of Great Britain was used after 1707.

The passing of Acts of Union by both the English and Scottish Parliaments led to the creation on 1 May 1707 of the United Kingdom of Great Britain.

http://www.parliament.uk/actofunion/

In 1801 a second Act of Union was passed, creating yet another new country, the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland'

The Anglo-Irish treaty of 1921 removed mainland Ireland from the UK. Six northern Irish counties (Northern Ireland) remained part of the UK.

The current name of the country, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, was adopted in 1927

Complicated isn't it ? :o)

[Prodigal]

“Great Britain” is a purely geographical expression, and has nothing to do with perceived national achievement - i.e. it doesn't mean we think we're "great" (Rule Britannia notwithstanding)

d00d say it ain't so!!!


Bit off topic but seems to fit with this gen. discussion.

In an effort to reinvigorate my game interest started reading a book I got many moons ago, Age of Battles by Russel F. Weigley, it covers many major battles from Brientenfeld to Waterloo, the emphasis being on tech. advances, army structure, weapon types and of course the battles themselves.

Its a bit dry, but very interesting as its core is how people have worked to achieve decisive warfare.

[InsaneApache]

Not specifically.

The terms 'Lobster' and or 'Bullocks' were apparently rather unflattering naval expressions used to refer to the Marines that served on their ships. Some of these marines would have been drawn from regular army regiments at times and so I'm pretty sure the two terms would have been used to refer to any soldier, who the seaman considered rather 'dumb', 'docile' and 'uninteliigent'. The relationship was not helped by the fact that the Marines were there as much to protect the Captain and Officers from the crew as to form a valuable contribution to the fighting of the ship.

However, neither term caught on outside the navy and the only real reason I know about them is through reading books by Cornwell and Kent.

Incidently, I had a look at the official British Army record of what nicknames were used for British Soliders and found a few more interesting ones.

1. 'Tommy Atkins' or 'Tommy' for short. The origins are obscure but most probably derive from a specimen army form circulated by the Adjutant-General Sir Harry Calvert to all units in 1815 where the blanks had been filled in with the particulars of a Private Thomas Atkins, No 6 Company, 23rd Regiment of Foot. Present day British soldiers are often referred to as 'Toms' or just 'Tom'.

2. 'Squaddies'. Outside the services soldiers are generally known as 'Squaddies' by the British popular press. Urban Dictionary: A member of the Army. They hang about in squads for safety (even when off duty), hence squaddie. Often found wearing an unofficial style of uniform while in town drinking consisting of: - A pair of faded blue jeans, - Desert boots (or Rockports, CAT's etc) and a fleece style top.

3. 'Jocks' Another nickname which applies only to soldiers in Scottish regiments is 'Jocks', derived from the fact that in Scotland the common Christian name John is often changed to Jock in the vernacular.

4. 'Taffs' Welsh soldiers are occasionally referred to as 'Taffy' or just 'Taff'. This most likely only applies to those from the Taff-ely Vally in South Wales, where a large portion of men, left unemployed from the decline of the coal industry in the area, enlisted in the military during WW1 and 2.

5. Paddy's or Mick's Irish soldiers are referred to as Paddy's or Mick's, this from the days when many Irish recruits had the name Patrick or Michael.

5. 'Ruperts' Junior officers in the army are generally known as 'Ruperts' by the Other ranks. This nickname is believed to be derived from the children's comic book character Rupert Bear who epitomizes traditional public school values.[8]

6. Pongo or Perce: The term 'Pongo', as in 'where the army goes the pong goes', or 'Perce' is often used by Sailors and Royal Marines to refer to soldiers. It is not considered complimentary.

French Nicknames for the British Soldiers they were fighting are surprisingly hard to find on google. However, the most common one I've come across is 'Goddam's', which originated in the 100 years war and was an attempt to riddicule the British soldiers speech which apparently often started with that expression. The term is still in use amongst the French speakers of Canada and Louisiana and was apparently used recently in a song by Zachary Richards. http://www.zacharyrichard.com/lyrics/reveille.html

The French seem to have a habit of trying to do this with foriegn soldiers, I've read other accounts of French troops trying to make fun their enemies by mimicking their language. There was an incident in the Napoleonic Wars where French Cavalry took to shouting 'Au Rat! Au Rat!' at the Austrian's. As far as I can tell the phrase itself is meaningless but they obviously thought it was somehow funny, and it must have sounded like an Austrian drill command or something. As usual with the French the idea completely missed the point and neither the Austrian's nor the British were insulted by these actions, merely concluding that all Frenchmen are mad. In fact the British would have considered being called 'God Damned' a compliment.

Nice summary.

Then again there are the bootnecks.

It doesn't say why they are called 'bootnecks' in the article but I'm reliably informed it's because the collar of the dress uniform is shaped like a boot. ;)

Some picks of my dad as a young man...

[peacemaker]

just thought I'd mention this, in my most recent campaign as Spain, The United States happened to emerge in 1707 from the Carolinas, and then moved south to take georgia. Since then they have been locked in a stalemate against Great Britain and the Cherokee nations

just a funny little aspect of the game

[Didz]

Oh! well in my British campaign the USA emerge three times in three different states starting at about the same time as in yours, and I crushed them every time. In fact, I got more colonies that way as having captured them they became fully British rather than a protectorate. I think its probably quite hard for the USA to emerge in a British Campaign, there is tendency for a player to mass far more troops in the colonies in relative terms than were their historically.

[Fisherking]

Oh! well in my British campaign the USA emerge three times in three different states starting at about the same time as in yours, and I crushed them every time. In fact, I got more colonies that way as having captured them they became fully British rather than a protectorate. I think its probably quite hard for the USA to emerge in a British Campaign, there is tendency for a player to mass far more troops in the colonies in relative terms than were their historically.

In mine after emerging they remained quiet until my monarch died and then launched a war of secession.

[Razor1952]

I see there was quite a discussion while I was away playing golf for a week. Indeed I enjoyed reading all the replies. And we still will beat the Pohms at cricket in the upcoming series.

BTW the aussies call the english pommies or POHM's possibly from Prisoner of His Majesty. And we're proud to be descended from convicts.

[Didz]

..the aussies call the english pommies or POHM's possibly from Prisoner of His Majesty. And we're proud to be descended from convicts.

Ah! I never knew that.

'Apparently, it was the initials from the initials 'POHM' stamped on the clothing and equipment used by English convicts. It meant Prisoner Of His/Her Majesty and marked out felons transported to Australia.'

So, in a way it ought to have been a nickname for an Australian, but presumably there was a sort of mental transition period when some people considered themselves Australians, by birth or naturalisation, and Britiain was still shipping fresh convicts out who these new Australians still considered English.

[Roka]

Not specifically.

The terms 'Lobster' and or 'Bullocks' were apparently rather unflattering naval expressions used to refer to the Marines that served on their ships. Some of these marines would have been drawn from regular army regiments at times and so I'm pretty sure the two terms would have been used to refer to any soldier, who the seaman considered rather 'dumb', 'docile' and 'uninteliigent'. The relationship was not helped by the fact that the Marines were there as much to protect the Captain and Officers from the crew as to form a valuable contribution to the fighting of the ship.

However, neither term caught on outside the navy and the only real reason I know about them is through reading books by Cornwell and Kent.

Incidently, I had a look at the official British Army record of what nicknames were used for British Soliders and found a few more interesting ones.

1. 'Tommy Atkins' or 'Tommy' for short. The origins are obscure but most probably derive from a specimen army form circulated by the Adjutant-General Sir Harry Calvert to all units in 1815 where the blanks had been filled in with the particulars of a Private Thomas Atkins, No 6 Company, 23rd Regiment of Foot. Present day British soldiers are often referred to as 'Toms' or just 'Tom'.

2. 'Squaddies'. Outside the services soldiers are generally known as 'Squaddies' by the British popular press. Urban Dictionary: A member of the Army. They hang about in squads for safety (even when off duty), hence squaddie. Often found wearing an unofficial style of uniform while in town drinking consisting of: - A pair of faded blue jeans, - Desert boots (or Rockports, CAT's etc) and a fleece style top.

3. 'Jocks' Another nickname which applies only to soldiers in Scottish regiments is 'Jocks', derived from the fact that in Scotland the common Christian name John is often changed to Jock in the vernacular.

4. 'Taffs' Welsh soldiers are occasionally referred to as 'Taffy' or just 'Taff'. This most likely only applies to those from the Taff-ely Vally in South Wales, where a large portion of men, left unemployed from the decline of the coal industry in the area, enlisted in the military during WW1 and 2.

5. Paddy's or Mick's Irish soldiers are referred to as Paddy's or Mick's, this from the days when many Irish recruits had the name Patrick or Michael.

5. 'Ruperts' Junior officers in the army are generally known as 'Ruperts' by the Other ranks. This nickname is believed to be derived from the children's comic book character Rupert Bear who epitomizes traditional public school values.[8]

6. Pongo or Perce: The term 'Pongo', as in 'where the army goes the pong goes', or 'Perce' is often used by Sailors and Royal Marines to refer to soldiers. It is not considered complimentary.

French Nicknames for the British Soldiers they were fighting are surprisingly hard to find on google. However, the most common one I've come across is 'Goddam's', which originated in the 100 years war and was an attempt to riddicule the British soldiers speech which apparently often started with that expression. The term is still in use amongst the French speakers of Canada and Louisiana and was apparently used recently in a song by Zachary Richards. http://www.zacharyrichard.com/lyrics/reveille.html

The French seem to have a habit of trying to do this with foriegn soldiers, I've read other accounts of French troops trying to make fun their enemies by mimicking their language. There was an incident in the Napoleonic Wars where French Cavalry took to shouting 'Au Rat! Au Rat!' at the Austrian's. As far as I can tell the phrase itself is meaningless but they obviously thought it was somehow funny, and it must have sounded like an Austrian drill command or something. As usual with the French the idea completely missed the point and neither the Austrian's nor the British were insulted by these actions, merely concluding that all Frenchmen are mad. In fact the British would have considered being called 'God Damned' a compliment.

hate to rain on your parade, but as a Scot with Irish heritage, the terms Jock and Paddy/Mick are highly offensive and using Jock to a Scot will most likely result in you getting the proverbial faeces kicked out of you

also Paddy/Mick is used by protestant's against catholics, referring to the majority of the Catholic population of Scotlands Irish ancestry

EDIT: i realise you probably meant no offence, im just telling you

[Didz]

hate to rain on your parade, but as a Scot with Irish heritage, the terms Jock and Paddy/Mick are highly offensive and using Jock to a Scot will most likely result in you getting the proverbial faeces kicked out of you

also Paddy/Mick is used by protestant's against catholics, referring to the majority of the Catholic population of Scotlands Irish ancestry

EDIT: i realise you probably meant no offence, im just telling you

Not much point moaning at me about it mate.

If you'd read my post you would have noted that this information was obtained from British Army Website, and to be fair to them its only recording the historical facts. Whether we like it or not we can't rewrite our history, or rather we shouldn't even though some countries obviously do.

A long established nickname for a British soldier has been 'Tommy Atkins' or 'Tommy' for short. The origins are obscure but most probably derive from a specimen army form circulated by the Adjutant-General Sir Harry Calvert to all units in 1815 where the blanks had been filled in with the particulars of a Private Thomas Atkins, No 6 Company, 23rd Regiment of Foot. Present day British soldiers are often referred to as 'Toms' or just 'Tom'. Outside the services soldiers are generally known as 'Squaddies' by the British popular press. The British Army magazine Soldier has a regular cartoon strip, 'Tom', featuring the everyday life of a British soldier. Another nickname which applies only to soldiers in Scottish regiments is 'Jocks', derived from the fact that in Scotland the common Christian name John is often changed to Jock in the vernacular. Welsh soldiers are occasionally referred to as 'Taffy' or just 'Taff'. This most likely only applies to those from the Taff-ely Vally in South Wales, where a large portion of men, left unemployed from the decline of the coal industry in the area, enlisted in the military during WW1 and 2. Irish soldiers are referred to as Paddys or Micks, this from the days when many Irish recruits had the name Patrick or Michael.

Junior officers in the army are generally known as 'Ruperts' by the Other ranks. This nickname is believed to be derived from the children's comic book character Rupert Bear who epitomizes traditional public school values.[8]

The term 'Pongo', as in where the army goes the pong goes, or 'Perce' is often used by Sailors and Royal Marines to refer to soldiers. It is not considered complimentary.

[Roka]

Not much point moaning at me about it mate.

If you'd read my post you would have noted that this information was obtained from British Army Website, and to be fair to them its only recording the historical facts. Whether we like it or not we can't rewrite our history, or rather we shouldn't even though some countries obviously do.

my post came across wrong i wasn't really moaning to you

but if that actually comes from a British Army website then it jsut shows you how clueless the people in charge truly are

another off-topic yet slightly on topic tihng that gets my goat up is if anything were Scottish people are speaking is shown on T.V they frequently subtitle us, but we have to listen to (and be able to understand) cockney rhyming slang, also scousers, geordies and mancunians unaided

sorry to sort of hijack the thread but i've had a few pints and i feel like ranting

[Didz]

another off-topic yet slightly on topic tihng that gets my goat up is if anything were Scottish people are speaking is shown on T.V they frequently subtitle us, but we have to listen to (and be able to understand) cockney rhyming slang, also scousers, geordies and mancunians unaided

I've got no answer to that, cos I didn't really understand the question without the sub-titles

[Captain Blackadder]

Technically, there was no de jure "Great Britain" until 1707, but there was a de facto nation under a single throne from 1603. Once James VI of Scotland succeeded to the English throne as James I, there was little chance the two kingdoms ever going their separate ways again. By 1707 the Scots were almost broke, thanks to the failure of the Darrien expedition, and were quite ready to vote for a Union, in return for access to the English exchequer and guaranteed Westminster representation that is (still) out of proportion to the Scottish population.

Given that the Scots still have separate laws, now have their own Parliament and the "West Lothian" question has never been seriously addressed, you could even argue that the UK has never really come to terms with being one country anyway.

But - and this is the important bit - it added nothing to gameplay to make the British player manage three national budgets (England and Wales, Scotland, Ireland) and separate military establishments. Did you really want to spend your game shuffling money between England and its poorer neighbours and playing, in effect, Total Regional Policy?

I don't know Total Regional Policy sounds pretty good to me. Enjoy all the thrills and spills of governance. Discover the huge problems that come with attempting to standardise the local fishery tariffs.

[Roka]

I've got not answer to that, cos I didn't really understand the question without the sub-titles

[InsaneApache]

another off-topic yet slightly on topic tihng that gets my goat up is if anything were Scottish people are speaking is shown on T.V they frequently subtitle us, but we have to listen to (and be able to understand) cockney rhyming slang, also scousers, geordies and mancunians unaided

sorry to sort of hijack the thread but i've had a few pints and i feel like ranting

Having lived in Ayeshire for the best part of two years I can tell thee that I could have done with having sub-titles when I spoke to folks, certainly in the first six months. Talk about impenitrible!

As for us mancunians, I believe they are actively sought out in radio communications as, apparently, the mancunian accent is easily understood on the radio by all squaddies.

With you on the cockneys though.