Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[Watchman]

Machimoi Phalangitai have 1 less armour than the Pantodapoi or Deuteroi. Deuteroi have a linthorax, whereas Machmoi have a padded vest. Also, both the Panatadapoi and machmoi have a 5-attack axe. Ridiculous. I modded the axe attack to 7 in my EDU. Five is just too low. Deuteroi have 7 sword attack. Keep all that in mind when you boast of the AP attack of the Eastern Levy Phalangites.

Yeah well. Axes and maces take -1 to base attack value (to offset the AP and fairly high lethality), xiphos-type mid-sized swords give +1... see where that goes ?

Anyway, I've personally found the Panty pikes quite useful. But then again I don't even try to use them for "push of pike", but pin enemy pikes in place for flankers to destroy. Deep "box" formations and guardmode does well there.

As for the Pontic thorakitai, is that with or without the +2 to defskill (making it 11) recommended as a fix to make them viable ? (Goes for the closely related Hai armoured swordsmen too, incidentally.) The kit design is kinda bad, granted.

[Marcus Ulpius]

All phalanx units are surprisingly good simply because the AI has absolutely no clue how to fight them. The only thing that can trouble your army of levy phalanxes is the army of better phalanxes, but even then if you have some support troops you can still win the battle. With Macedonia I conquered Greece and kicked the AS out of western Asia Minor with levy phalanx armies.

[Apázlinemjó]

As for the Pontic thorakitai, is that with or without the +2 to defskill (making it 11) recommended as a fix to make them viable ? (Goes for the closely related Hai armoured swordsmen too, incidentally.) The kit design is kinda bad, granted.

Without +2 defskill, although I don't think it would change the situation that much.

[Watchman]

Without +2 defskill, although I don't think it would change the situation that much.

Of course it does. The units are *all about* their stats.

[Apázlinemjó]

Of course it does. The units are *all about* their stats.

But +2 def skill? I don't think it's enough then, I'd played some custom battles, comparing these guys to other units, like Post Marians, Thracian Peltastai, German Swordsmen and such, and well...they lost, badly.

[Watchman]

Their problem is that they're too lightly armoured and shielded for their tactical role; slightly lighter than eg. Marian legionaries, though they are of superior skill level, and noticeably lighter than the common Thorakitai of the same quality level. Compare:

;504
type             eastern infantry pontic thorakitai
dictionary       eastern_infantry_pontic_thorakitai      ; Pontic Thorakitai
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       Heavy_1
soldier          eastern_infantry_mardig_georgian_swordsmen_pontic_thorakitai_parthohellenikoi_thureophoroi, 40, 0, 1.15, 0.25
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation        1.2, 1.6, 2.4, 3.2, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         6, 4, javelin, 35, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown
stat_sec         12, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  9, 9, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental      13, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1813, 453, 196, 374, 1813
ownership        carthage

;241
type             roman infantry legionary cohort i
dictionary       roman_infantry_legionary_cohort_i      ; Cohortes Reformata
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       General_1
soldier          roman_infantry_cohorsreformata, 50, 0, 1.18, 0.25
officer          ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer          ebofficer_roman_early_standard
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation        1, 2, 2, 3, 5, square, testudo
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         4, 4, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown, ap
stat_sec         11, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  10, 8, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, 0, -2, -2
stat_mental      14, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1790, 448, 100, 160, 1790
ownership        seleucid, slave

;177
type             greek infantry thorakitai
dictionary       greek_infantry_thorakitai      ; Thorakitai
category         infantry
class            spearmen
voice_type       Female_1
soldier          carthaginian_infantry_lybianspearmen_thorakitai_scortamavera, 40, 0, 1.18, 0.25
officer          ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer          ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
mount_effect     elephant -1
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap
formation        1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         6, 6, javelin, 35, 3, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown
stat_sec         15, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    light_spear
stat_pri_armour  12, 9, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        5
stat_ground      0, 0, -2, -3
stat_mental      13, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1910, 478, 40, 60, 1910
ownership        romans_brutii, romans_julii, greek_cities, numidia, thrace

21 to 22 or 24 totals; the +2 ought to RATHER help bridge the gap. (Ditto for the virtually identical Armenian heavy swordsmen, natch.)
On the plus side, they're faster moving than the other two and "hardy", unlike the usual Thoras.

[Maion Maroneios]

Indeed, they have better stamina. I've found them to be quite a pain in the rear, actually. They were able to keep their own against my pikemen for a long time, plus they gave my Thureophoroi and Peltastai a nasty surprise.

Maion

[athanaric]

Perhaps the horribly low lethality of their swords (0.1) might be a big part of their weakness. It is no wonder they lost in the test against Germanic swordsmen, who sport Celtic longswords, or against the even nastier Thracians.