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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Comrade Obama - by Hugo the comedian

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    That's actually a fair point. Sweden would be considered Socialist by some, correct?
    Indeed. How many socialist governments around the world have there been that did not repress human rights to some extent? You could say England back before Thatcher got elected was socialist, but the socialists got voted out of office. On the other end would be Stalin and Mao.

    But I can't think of many freely elected governments that persevered and were socialist - nationalizing companies and all that. Instead they seem to be dictatorships or other forms of non-democratic government. So consider Caius' words; the damn curse of socialism. Since socialism seems so often to go hand in hand with political repression, I think he has a point.

    Chavez is still holding elections, but they're not exactly free and fair; he represses the opposition and uses the apparatus of the state to promote himself. It'd be illegal in the US.

    Absolute and utter garbage. You should be ashamed to utter such filth. Disgraceful.


    You'll forget your 'principals' and laud any dictator or strongman who increases his power and the power of the state by seizing other people's property as long as he throws a few bones to the poor.

    You lambaste all who righteously oppose him but then disappear when people bring up many valid reasons to oppose Chavez.

    Perhaps us non-socialists should ask ourselves why socialists are so quick to forgive repression from the left.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    Honorary Argentinian Senior Member Gyroball Champion, Karts Champion Caius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Comrade Obama - by Hugo the comedian

    Perhaps us non-socialists should ask ourselves why socialists are so quick to forgive repression from the left.
    Maybe they needed to clean, you know.
    I don't support any hierarchy such as dictators/classes/etc. I am merely putting out majority of the things against Chavez are either hypocritical or "for the wrong reasons".
    And those reasons are...? Look Beskar, when I first heard of Chavez, I applauded him because more than one didnt like Bush, and he... exteriorizated it. But then, Hugo became a friend of Fidel, then Nestor, then Cristina Kirchner. Have you ever heard of the "suitcase scandal"? Hugo gave money to Cristina Kirchner so they could get more money for the '07 Presidential Elections.

    Hugo= Venezuelan Permanent President
    Cristina K= Argentinian President

    I mean, Obama doesnt send one of his helpers to fund UK parties in elections. Obama doesnt arrive and says "Hello Spain, why dont you leave the EU?". I mean, its utterly silly. But when Uribe, who renegotiated some things with multinationals and did a good job, Hugo arrives and both attack media. Those countries that fare well (not farewell) are smart ones that keep Hugo out of their business.

    I'd say that I dont care about Venezuela, but we are supposed to be brothers-in-continent. Yet, we must grow togheter, like our Martin Fierro says:

    Los hermanos sean unidos,
    esa es la ley primera,
    deben estar unidos
    por cualquier razon que sea,
    por que si no vienen
    y se los devoran los de afuera.

    Brothers be united,
    that must be the first law,
    you must be united
    by whichever reason it appears,
    because if not outsiders come
    and (brothers) will be devorated.




    Names, secret names
    But never in my favour
    But when all is said and done
    It's you I love

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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Comrade Obama - by Hugo the comedian

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Perhaps us non-socialists should ask ourselves why socialists are so quick to forgive repression from the left.

    CR
    Maybe because dictators and repressive regimes have been found on both ends of the spectrum. For every Stalin there is a Hitler, for every Castro there is a Batista, and vice versa of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caius View Post
    I mean, Obama doesnt send one of his helpers to fund UK parties in elections. Obama doesnt arrive and says "Hello Spain, why dont you leave the EU?". I mean, its utterly silly. But when Uribe, who renegotiated some things with multinationals and did a good job, Hugo arrives and both attack media. Those countries that fare well (not farewell) are smart ones that keep Hugo out of their business.

    I'd say that I dont care about Venezuela, but we are supposed to be brothers-in-continent. Yet, we must grow togheter, like our Martin Fierro says:
    You're kidding here, right? US doesn't fund parties abroad? Or did you mean specifically UK? Otherwise it is laughable. Wherever there's government they don't like, US send support to opposing parties or other political groups, depending on the situation and how important it is to their interest. That includes money, counseling, media support and what not. I was a part of the student organization that was instrumental in organizing student protests against Milosevic. Most of our funding came from US. A bit from Europe and insignificant amount from Serbia.

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    Honorary Argentinian Senior Member Gyroball Champion, Karts Champion Caius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Comrade Obama - by Hugo the comedian

    You're kidding here, right? US doesn't fund parties abroad? Or did you mean specifically UK? Otherwise it is laughable. Wherever there's government they don't like, US send support to opposing parties or other political groups, depending on the situation and how important it is to their interest. That includes money, counseling, media support and what not. I was a part of the student organization that was instrumental in organizing student protests against Milosevic. Most of our funding came from US. A bit from Europe and insignificant amount from Serbia.
    Sorry, I wasn't. What I knew is that the US funded coups. I wonder if Obama does the same thing. But I see one difference, and Samartian won't think im right but, the US tried to defeat enemies, Chavez tries to make perpetual presidents.

    I'd call JAG a socialist,
    I thought he called himself one in the Political Compass thread.




    Names, secret names
    But never in my favour
    But when all is said and done
    It's you I love

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Comrade Obama - by Hugo the comedian

    Quote Originally Posted by CountArach View Post
    Is Chavez far from ideal in terms of human rights, forieng policy, etc? Sure - and I think large swathes of the left would admit to that. However, if we seperate those off from his economic reforms we can see the good side of his policies as well.
    If I would be forced to chose between Chavez and his internal opposition, I would chose Chavez.

    Having to make this decision - rather, being limited to this choice - is the curse of Latin America. Cursed by the absence of moderation, of a near absent middle-class, one forever under threat too. Who's there to identify with? The right are ultra-conservative. They are what so many Europeans accuse the US right of: reactionary, empty-headed, ignorant, religious, violent, living behind too large walls in too big houses. The left are a big, poor, semi-illiterate mass, headed by a few isolated intellectuals.

    In between is nothing. This, to me, is the problem. A middle-class is the big difference between first world and third world. All countries have a few percent rich, educated elite. (You think your rich are well off? Try Mexico, Brazil, the Phillipines, Tunesia, Russia)
    And all have some twenty percent who are not capable of productive lives. The sole difference is the seventy-five percent in-between. If they can provide for their family in safety and dignity, if power resides with them, their country is stable, democratic, peaceful. If they are impoverished, threatened, there is instability, violence, strife.

    Power in Latin America swings back and forth between the populist left and the hard-right. I don't appreciate either, or feel particularly inclined to chose for either, simply because of disliking the other more. The solution would be the empowerment/creation of nice middle classes, with its preference for liberal democracy, the rule of law, a strong civil society, and nice moderate social-democracy and social-conservatism.
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