The Europa Barbarorum Quotes Project

[Celtic_Punk]

why?

[Foot]

why?

What does the writings of shakespeare have to do with hellenistic era of the ancient world? Hence we won't include quotes that are written within an alien context to our own mod's timeframe.

Foot

[Saldunz]

What does the writings of shakespeare have to do with hellenistic era of the ancient world? Hence we won't include quotes that are written within an alien context to our own mod's timeframe.

Foot

Is that just a general rule restricted to timeframe, or all other forms of context too? Because I could've sworn that the quotes file has something from Ovid's Amores which I find really bizarre to read right before a battle...

[oudysseos]

Actually, unless I am greatly mistaken, the only Ovid in the quotes is

{Author_15} Publius Ovidius Naso
{Quote_15} The gods favour the bold.

Which is itself a paraphrase of Ennius, I think.

But to answer your broader question, the time-frame is the primary criterion for including a quote, along with relevance to the area involved: there are no Chinese quotes, for example, not even ones from the 3rd century BCE. I bent the rules in 3 or 4 cases (the Irish triads and so on) because it is otherwise very difficult to give pre-literate people (or people whose literature had been totally lost) a voice. Since we're talking 4 quotes out of 300 I think that we are still pretty good. But although there may be some shades of grey, Shakespeare is without question well over the line. To be honest, I'd leave out the Vegetius as well, except that one can argue that he is mainly epitomizing earlier sources.

EDIT: Actually 'The Gods favour the bold' probably comes from Terence originally, by way of Vergil.

[Saldunz]

This is the one I was thinking of.

{Quote_65} Perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim - Be patient and tough; some day this pain will be useful to you.
{Author_65}Ovid

If I recall correctly, that line was about being rejected in love. Not that I remember Ovid perfectly.

EDIT: Actually, I just realised I don't have the absolute newest quotes file, but this was still in the second most recent release.

[Urg]

Here are some more, from Nepos (Hannibal) and from Livy. I tried to focus on quotes about non-Romans and non-Greeks. I stopped at Livy 23:14 so if anyone wants to continue on from there, feel free.


It is not to be disputed that Hannibal surpassed other commanders in ability as much as the Romans surpassed all other people in valour.

Non est infitiandum Hannibalem tanto praestitisse ceteros imperatores prudentia, quanto populus Romanus antecedat fortitudine cunctas nationes.

Cornelius Nepos, Hannibal, 1



All things are the property of the brave.

Omnia fortium uirorum.

Reply of the invading Senonian Gauls to the Roman ambassadors, c387 BC

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 5:36



These terms a victorious enemy dictates. These, though harsh and grievous, your condition commends to you.

Haec uictor hostis imperat; haec quamquam sunt grauia atque acerba, fortuna uestra uobis suadet.

Speech of Alorcus, on behalf of Hannibal, to the Saguntines.

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 21:13



“They are but the resemblances, nay, are rather the shadows of men; being worn out with hunger, cold, dirt, and filth, and bruised and enfeebled among stones and rocks.”

“Umbrae hominum, fame, frigore, inluuie, squalore enecti, contusi ac debilitati inter saxa rupesque”

P. Cornelius Scipio to his troops concerning Hannibal’s army after its crossing of the Alps, November 218 BC

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 21:40



Here, soldiers, where you have first met the enemy, you must conquer or die.

Hic uincendum aut moriendum, milites, est.

Hannibal, before the battle of the Ticinus, November 218 BC

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 21:43



The confidence and courage of the attacker are greater than those of the defender.

Quanto maior spes, maior est animus inferentis uim quam arcentis.

Hannibal

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 21:44



“Now will I offer this victim to the shades of my countrymen, miserably slain.”

“Iam ego hanc uictimam manibus peremptorum foede ciuium dabo".

Ducarius the Insubrian Gaul, before killing Flaminius at Lake Trasimene

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 22:6



“Let us die, soldiers, and by our deaths rescue the surrounded legions from ambuscade”

"Moriamur, milites, et morte nostra eripiamus ex obsidione circumuentas legiones"

M. Calpurnius Flamma, at Camarina, First Punic War, c258 BC

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 22:60

[oudysseos]

Urg- fantastic stuff.

Saldunz- I don't know what version you have but this is number 65 now:

{Author_65} Adherbal, The Jugurthine War, Ch. XIV
{Quote_65} Shall our family, then, never be at peace? Shall we always be harassed with war, bloodshed, and exile?

[Elmetiacos]

All things are the property of the brave.

Omnia fortium uirorum.

Reply of the invading Senonian Gauls to the Roman ambassadors, c387 BC

Livy, Ad urbe condita, 5:36

I read the original Latin just to make sure it was really there, but it didn't strike me before that it doesn't actually mean "all things are the property of the brave" or "To the brave belong all things": Omnia fortium uirorum (esse) is "all (be) to the strong men" literally. If you'll indulge me, this sounds quite poetic in reconstructed Gaulish: *Papon uirobo peprobo buet

[IrishHitman]

What does the writings of shakespeare have to do with hellenistic era of the ancient world? Hence we won't include quotes that are written within an alien context to our own mod's timeframe.

Foot

Then why are Bible quotes being included?

The Bible was either written a long time before or almost century after EB's timeframe.
It is historically and culturally insignificant in this time period.

I'll start demanding Táin quotes pretty soon if I see Bible quotes...

[Foot]

Then why are Bible quotes being included?

The Bible was either written a long time before or almost century after EB's timeframe.
It is historically and culturally insignificant in this time period.

I'll start demanding Táin quotes pretty soon if I see Bible quotes...

And you obviously don't know your bible scholarship.

The Bible was written and rewritten throughout our timeframe, but most of the books of the old testament were written in their final form in about the 5th Century BC. I'm not sure about New Testament books, but the Gospels were written at most a couple of hundred years after. All were written in a world that was recognisable and part of the common heritage of people of that time. It is historically and culturally significant in our time period.

Shakespeare appears in a world that was some 1800 years after our start date. If you cannot see the difference in that, then I'm at a loss for words.

Foot

[antisocialmunky]

Yes, the 5th-6th century BCE with atleast sections of the books of the Torah dating from before. You're not going to ever really be able to get a concrete date through since the Jewish priests burned old copies.

The Gospel Books usually in any point of view is acknowledged to be 1st century material except maybe John with numerous copies being produced in the early 2nd century to attest to 1st century authorship via circulation. Now, how many decades after Jesus the Gospels are written and which order? No one really knows though the textual critics would say otherwise.

So what exact time frame is allows? Near East iron-age to Vegetius?

[oudysseos]

Yes, the 5th-6th century BCE with atleast sections of the books of the Torah dating from before. You're not going to ever really be able to get a concrete date through since the Jewish priests burned old copies.

The Gospel Books usually in any point of view is acknowledged to be 1st century material except maybe John with numerous copies being produced in the early 2nd century to attest to 1st century authorship via circulation. Now, how many decades after Jesus the Gospels are written and which order? No one really knows though the textual critics would say otherwise.

So what exact time frame is allows? Near East iron-age to Vegetius?

There are a couple of quotes from TaNaKh sources, but they are mostly non-religious in character. However, a quote from Rabbi Hillel is in 'cos he was an important historical figure in the period. There are a couple of Buddhist quotes from Asoka as well, for the same reason. These do not imply that the EB team is proselytizing a particular religion, just acknowledging some of the many different cultures and societies that EB embraces. 'Christian' sources as such are too late, really. There's an outside chance that there might be something usable in St. Paul.

As far as time frame goes, anything from Homer up to Tacitus and Plutarch is pretty good, with particular interest in non-Graeco-Roman sources. Vegetius is really too late, and most of his material from vanilla RTW is gone- especially where original/earlier versions of the same aphorism could be found.

The point of the quotes is to add some flavour: they don't have to be just about war (although most are)- there are some quotes in there that are ethnography. They can be about any of the peoples and regions covered by the map- even those that aren't factions (so you'll see a quote in there about Massalia - but that doesn't mean it's one of the new factions).

[Urg]

Then why are Bible quotes being included?

The Bible was either written a long time before or almost century after EB's timeframe.
It is historically and culturally insignificant in this time period.

I'll start demanding Táin quotes pretty soon if I see Bible quotes...

Which Bible quotes are you referring to? As far as I am aware, the main set of biblical quotes in the current set of quotes compiled by Oudy are the ones from books 1 & 2 Maccabees which I extracted.

I think you will find that the historical setting for those books falls smack bang in the middle of the EB timeframe, namely the middle of the second century BC, and deals with the Jewish revolt against the Seleucids.

The descriptions of the battles against the Seleucid phalangites and elephants are, in my opinion, perfect for EB.

There are plenty of other Jewish sources that are relevant to the EB time frame which I don't think anyone has been through yet. It would be great if someone could do so.

[Shapur II]

This is just a suggestion

but why not have a quote from the Rig Vedas too?,since it had existed for a while by the time of EB's timeframe and India is on the eastern edge of the map

an example:

1. I Laud Agni, the chosen Priest, God, minister of sacrifice,
The hotar, lavishest of wealth.
2. Worthy is Agni to be praised by living as by ancient seers.
He shall bring. hitherward the Gods.
3. Through Agni man obtaineth wealth, yea, plenty waxing day by day,
Most rich in heroes, glorious.
4. Agni, the perfect sacrifice which thou encompassest about
Verily goeth to the Gods.
5. May Agni, sapient-minded Priest, truthful, most gloriously great,
The God, come hither with the Gods.
6. Whatever blessing, Agni, thou wilt grant unto thy worshipper,
That, Angiras, is indeed thy truth.
7. To thee, dispeller of the night, O Agni, day by day with prayer
Bringing thee reverence, we come
8. Ruler of sacrifices, guard of Law eternal, radiant One,
Increasing in thine own abode.
9. Be to us easy of approach, even as a father to his son:
Agni, be with us for our weal.

[bobbin]

Found this rather lovely quote,

"Païs ôn kosmios ginou
Hèbôn enkratès
Mesos dikaios
Presbutès euboulos
Teleutôn alupos."

"As children, learn good manners.
As young men, learn to control the passions.
In middle age, be just.
In old age, give good advice.
Then die, without regret."

It is a Delphic maxim that comes from an inscription found in the Baktrian city of Ai-Khanoum on the Heroon of Kineas the founder of the city, and dates from around 300-250BC. It is written by a certain Klearchos who some believe to be Klearchos of Stoloi a student of Aristotle.

Here is a photo of the inscription (its the piece of text on the far right).
I'm also not sure where the inscription is actually held, I know it was at the Musée Guimet in paris for a while but I think it's kept in the Afghan national museum.

A link containing the original text as well as some other info.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=u...age&q=&f=false

[sc369]

παντες οι λαβοντες μαχαιραν εν μαχαιρη απολουνται

All they that take the sword shall perish by the sword
Matthew 26:52 (c. 30CE)

[Jolt]

why?

By then we could add the General Patton's quote I find most memorable, which has a nice ring to it.

"Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man.", which would be cute considering the timeframe the game is on. :D