Europe

[Furunculus]

Yeah it displays that you were talking bollox.
But hey you are still at it

Given what people have said about your warped views and how you form them it does appear that my comment the mods deleted was indeed spot on.

whatever.

go pm it to me, i'm curious.

[Tribesman]

whatever.

go pm it to me, i'm curious.

Curiouser and curiouser.
It was just that you would be found in company with a dormouse and a hare

[Furunculus]

and they deleted that, how strange.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Gentlemen,

May we return to an interesting debate, minus the personal acrimony?

Thank you kindly

[LittleGrizzly]

but WHY do it? why take this grand experiment with the welfare of the future world when there is zero need.

I wouldn't really say there is zero need. You could have said before the English Scottish union that its a grand experiment, it was. It worked wonderfully.

free-trade does not equal political union, to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

I didn't suggest it was, I merely said at one time that was also a new idea, one that perhaps in some people's view flew in the face of recorded history. Democracy was another example of this... my point being an idea being new and not tried before doesn't make it nessecarily bad...

the two nations of england and scotland do not compare to the 27 nations of the EU.

I would say there are more similarities between mainland britian and western Europe than there where between Soctland and England...


Have you considered that i do not want to tell european nations what to do? equally i do not want them telling us what to do. i simply do not desire that control, and certainly not at the expense of watering down britains ability to choose her own course.

Have you considered that i would rather have some sort of control over a meaningful foriegn policy rather than simply having the choice to follow one of the larger powers foriegn policys. In the same way other people in Britian tell you what to do and you tell other people in Britian what to do just with Europe instead of just Britian..

If your problem is telling others what to do that is understandable but we would have far more control of foriegn policy as part of a meaningful foriegn power so in my opinion the being told what to do part is a moot point, we are already told what to do...

[Beskar]

do you mean that america agreed to do things for us if we did things for them, wow, revolutionary!

What on earth are you on about? That has absolutely no relation to my comment.

i don't know how to put this any other way, what you utter is base drivel, unreconstructed nonsense.

the use of our strategic deterrent is operationally independant, thus is serves its purpose.

You have no clue what I am on about? Re-read what you said.

"America to refuse to service our missiles"
"Switch off GPS"
"Stop UK's nuclear derrent from fulfilling its purpose"

This means we do not have a independent strategic deterrent but one dependent on the USA! You have America who services our missiles, we are using their GPS, they have our launch codes. How stupid can you get? What is the point in having nuclear weapons when we can't even use them, how much of a threat are they if America has our codes in their briefcase. What about if America is the threat? Afterall, they control all out "strategic deterrent" so it is not going on work against them, is it?

I wish people actually saw things for what they were, instead of this wrapped reality where Britannia rules the waves when we are basically America's satellite state.

[Furunculus]

the US cannot stop the UK launching missiles. it is operationally independent.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What on earth are you on about? That has absolutely no relation to my comment.



You have no clue what I am on about? Re-read what you said.

"America to refuse to service our missiles"
"Switch off GPS"
"Stop UK's nuclear derrent from fulfilling its purpose"

This means we do not have a independent strategic deterrent but one dependent on the USA! You have America who services our missiles, we are using their GPS, they have our launch codes. How stupid can you get? What is the point in having nuclear weapons when we can't even use them, how much of a threat are they if America has our codes in their briefcase. What about if America is the threat? Afterall, they control all out "strategic deterrent" so it is not going on work against them, is it?

I wish people actually saw things for what they were, instead of this wrapped reality where Britannia rules the waves when we are basically America's satellite state.

They don't have the codes, they service the warheads. Were the US to remove that support the deterrent would remain viable for 14 months. Therefore the deterrent is Operationally independant. The US cannot stop the launch.

[Kagemusha]

Edit: Haha! I found this question, i kept looking for it as I remembered reading it.

Basically, a unification would actually equalize all the incomes over Europe. If there was a European minimum wage with European tax laws it would mean on average, people would roughly be paid and taxed the same, this would cause areas to rapidly start charging the same sort of prices for things and it would increase the incomes from the worse-off in Europe to better and with them having more money, they also would be spending this in their areas, bringing economical growth and interest into areas. Other countries also wouldn't have problems selling stock in these poorer areas either, as they don't have to sell them at a loss in comparison to if they did in the far West of Europe.

This sounds all nice and dandy.Just like pure socialism as a theory. So if you would set a European minimum vage, based on what would it be set. If you would set it based on the wages of some of the poorest countries of Europe, it would drag the wages down on the more better off countries, which would create misery in those countries, thus not a very good idea.
Would you set the minimum wage based on the richest countries. It could not be met simply in the poorer countries as the empoyers could not maintain business anymore. Basically this whole idea reeks socialism. That the European countries should give in and share all their wealth even. Well that is the antithesis of socialism. If everything would be shared evenly this evening between all people. The case would not be same anymore on the next morning.
I dont have anything against being a net payer in EU, in order to develop the poorer European countries, but i am not ready to drop my standard of living for the greater good of European federal state.

Special Circumstances would simply be based on case-by-case basis. However, a federal government has different layers which handles issues on different stages, so majority of the bottom stage stuff doesn't even reach the top, unless it is really important as it is handled on that level.

Also, we wouldn't be creating another layer, if anything, that layer is already there as it is, and it would actually become far more streamlined, especially when each of the European areas are reconstructed to fit ideally into this system instead of the current piece-meal style system.

Regional conditions again are handled on a regional basis and if they are very important, the "top" will know.

Again we are not living in perfect world. Larger the organisation. Less efficient it will become.

Not really, none of the European nations are as powerful as they think they are. It is an arrogance that somehow all the European nations seem to think they are really all powerful. They are strong yes, but you imply that nations such as the Netherlands can go toe-on-toe against Russia or America or China or other real major powers. On the otherhand, the combined might of all the nations such as France, Britain, Germany, (the other european nations) all together would be a really powerful military force that would rival the likes of America. Also, "part of a powerful superstate that has the need to project its power" why are we members of NATO then, which is the powerful American Superstates need to project its power? Just saying.

Again this can be accomplished without Federal state, just like it is currently handed via NATO. Remember that you are now trying to argue about pros of Federal State, not about if the whole EU is needed.

[LittleGrizzly]

This sounds all nice and dandy.Just like pure socialism as a theory. So if you would set a European minimum vage, based on what would it be set. If you would set it based on the wages of some of the poorest countries of Europe, it would drag the wages down on the more better off countries, which would create misery in those countries, thus not a very good idea.
Would you set the minimum wage based on the richest countries. It could not be met simply in the poorer countries as the empoyers could not maintain business anymore. Basically this whole idea reeks socialism. That the European countries should give in and share all their wealth even. Well that is the antithesis of socialism. If everything would be shared evenly this evening between all people. The case would not be same anymore.
I dont have anything against being a net payer in EU, in order to develop the poorer European countries, but i am not ready to drop my standard of living for the greater good of European federal state.

I don't see Beskars strategy working too well... at least in the short term... its more of a long to medium term strategy in my eyes...

Personally I wouldn't join all the countries up straight away, you can do it in gradual stages. At the moment we are investing in the poorer members of the EU (or just the poorer parts, I know that Wales gets a decent amount of european funding, or at least did) with this and increased integration we shall drag the rest of Europe up to the standards of England and France. It isn't just a loss for us us and a gain for the smaller economies, these countries contain scores of young people just ready to start paying taxes to support our ageing populations, this and the fact is alot of the poorer country's have a lot of potential to become quite rich countrys. We get them there more quickly and benefit from it....

I would certainly want more of an equality across Europe before we join into one country with a single minimum wage and the like...

[Furunculus]

do you recognise that a majority in this country categorically do not want to become part of a federated europe?

[LittleGrizzly]

do you recognise that a majority in this country categorically do not want to become part of a federated europe?

Can't say i have seen the figures but i would guess the majority would be in the no section, whats your point ?

[Beskar]

If the Media started saying a federated Europe is the best thing since sliced bread, then the majority would support it. However, the media such as the Sun or the Daily Mail only print stupid things like "They want to turn us Metric! Burn them at stakes!". The best thing I loved was the whole Gurka's living in Britain, it was the only time I saw the Daily Mail running the headline "We oppose Foreigners not being allowed to come into Britain"


Also, what I said is a medium to long term solution in regards to wages, obviously uniting in a Federal Europe would go into stages and as LittleGrizzley said, any investment we make, we will get returns on.

My biggest objection, is Kagemusha trying to imply Socialism is a bad thing.

[Kagemusha]

If the Media started saying a federated Europe is the best thing since sliced bread, then the majority would support it. However, the media such as the Sun or the Daily Mail only print stupid things like "They want to turn us Metric! Burn them at stakes!". The best thing I loved was the whole Gurka's living in Britain, it was the only time I saw the Daily Mail running the headline "We oppose Foreigners not being allowed to come into Britain"


Also, what I said is a medium to long term solution in regards to wages, obviously uniting in a Federal Europe would go into stages and as LittleGrizzley said, any investment we make, we will get returns on.

My biggest objection, is Kagemusha trying to imply Socialism is a bad thing.

I am sorry Beskar but you misunderstood me, could be my less then perfect grammar causing that. I dont think socialism is bad thing, not at all.It is a beutiful theory, but does not work in practice. Im myself a supporter of mixed economy, so i respect social issues as a binding glue that keeps the society together. But i am not an idealist and cant support something that can only work as a theory.

[Furunculus]

do you recognise that a majority in this country categorically do not want to become part of a federated europe?

Can't say i have seen the figures but i would guess the majority would be in the no section, whats your point ?

just curious to see if you were keen on federalism regardless of what the majority of your comrades/compatriots might think?

[Furunculus]

If the Media started saying a federated Europe is the best thing since sliced bread, then the majority would support it. However, the media such as the Sun or the Daily Mail only print stupid things like "They want to turn us Metric! Burn them at stakes!". The best thing I loved was the whole Gurka's living in Britain, it was the only time I saw the Daily Mail running the headline "We oppose Foreigners not being allowed to come into Britain"


Also, what I said is a medium to long term solution in regards to wages, obviously uniting in a Federal Europe would go into stages and as LittleGrizzley said, any investment we make, we will get returns on.

My biggest objection, is Kagemusha trying to imply Socialism is a bad thing.

you realise that is a very telling trait of those in favour of progressive/lefty politics, the fact the the average man doesn't know what is good for him, and that your solution correctly applied, and given him time, will sway him from his erroneous ways on to the true path.

how about investing in britain/trading partners and getting returns on that? might be easier, will certainly be more effective.

it's not bad, it's just a little bit naive, you'll get over it. strangling puppies is bad.

[Beskar]

you realise that is a very telling trait of those in favour of progressive/lefty politics, the fact the the average man doesn't know what is good for him, and that your solution correctly applied, and given him time, will sway him from his erroneous ways on to the true path.

It is an unfortunate fact that the average man doesn't know what is good for him, as they aren't taught or made to understand things. Simple education providing key skills such as critical thinking and how to research/come up with valid conclusions by itself will make the common man know what is good for them. If you noticed, I never biased that in any direction.

Also, it's not naive, it is rather people just being selfish. A trait from capitalism.

Also, I love how you labelled me as progressive. It is more of a compliment than an insult.

[Incongruous]

Indeed, how about investing in Britain?

The fact that Britain has lacked a leader for the past half century and has instead made do with politicians, means that the natural reaction towards yet more politicos, but this time foreigners, is bound to be negative.

What pro-Eu campaigners should be doing, is stop thinking about how best to bring up the poorer European countries to our standards, and instead looking at how to sort out the UK. By moving towards federation with what we have now, you are plotting its destruction.

The UK is a mess, I would also put it that the EU is a mess, the best thing to do is to stop and fix the problems. I would also put it that the best thing for the EU right now, is honesty and openess, allowing people to vote upon further integration is vital. Without referendums, the EU will be increasingly seen as a power hungry bunch of would be autocrats who hide behind legal wankery to get what they want. You will increasingly leave fair minded people by the way side, to be picked up by anti-EU parties.

The EU, is a long term goal, like fifty years or more, I'd say perhaps a century. You want it to work, start moving your efforts towards localised and national projects of investment. Be seen to be the ones who give, because at the moment you are seen as the ones who take and interfere with democracy.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

It is an unfortunate fact that the average man doesn't know what is good for him, as they aren't taught or made to understand things. Simple education providing key skills such as critical thinking and how to research/come up with valid conclusions by itself will make the common man know what is good for them. If you noticed, I never biased that in any direction.

Also, it's not naive, it is rather people just being selfish. A trait from capitalism.

I'll give you the same ultimatum as I gave Amelius Paulus - you say that the average man doesn't know what is good for him. What distinguishes you from the average man?

I once thought in the same authoritarian vein. I don't anymore. As much as you hold yourself apart from the common man, eventually you will grow to realise that you are similar to him. Perhaps you are even just like him. And whatever you think, you do not know what is best for him any more than he knows what is best for you.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It is an unfortunate fact that the average man doesn't know what is good for him, as they aren't taught or made to understand things. Simple education providing key skills such as critical thinking and how to research/come up with valid conclusions by itself will make the common man know what is good for them. If you noticed, I never biased that in any direction.

Also, it's not naive, it is rather people just being selfish. A trait from capitalism.

Also, I love how you labelled me as progressive. It is more of a compliment than an insult.

You have no right to dictate merely because you believe you know best. Such thinking has in the past led to mass burnings of heretics for the good of the Respublica Christiana.

If you cannot make the case for the federalised EU, that is your failing. Thus far the basic arguement is that the Euopean nations cannot work together, so they need to be forced to work together.

It's a crap arguement.

[LittleGrizzly]

just curious to see if you were keen on federalism regardless of what the majority of your comrades/compatriots might think?

Well i don't know about you but i don't base my political views on what the majority of people want...

If the majority of Brits wanted trident scrapped and the defence budget shrunk would you change your views or would you stick with your views regardless of what the majority of people think...

If we are just going to base policy on majority rules we can do away with all this politics nonsense and just have referendums on every issue...

I gotta agree with Ame and Beskar to a point. I would say it is a whole lot more due to disinterest than stupidity though, i don't consider myself a great mind i am just intrested in politics... my mere interest puts me above a sizeable chunk of the population.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with your average voter. After reading Frunculus post you would assume that quote came from a socialist (or just a lefty) think again...

[KukriKhan]

It is an unfortunate fact that the average man doesn't know what is good for him, as they aren't taught or made to understand things. Simple education providing key skills such as critical thinking and how to research/come up with valid conclusions by itself will make the common man know what is good for them. If you noticed, I never biased that in any direction.

Also, it's not naive, it is rather people just being selfish. A trait from capitalism.

Also, I love how you labelled me as progressive. It is more of a compliment than an insult.

Wow. How blatant and 'out there'.

And euro's wonder why yanks are suspicious. Beskar is a young guy. That he holds such thoughts and entertains them, tells me that the USSR didn't die , it simply got smarter, to wit: quit the shoe-banging at the UN, stop the economically-draining arms race with the US... just spread the word. The word of universal harmony. Directed by people who know what's good/best for the people.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Concur, Kukri. The older I become, the more I think up new questions and the more I realize I don't have the answers. Aside from a notably shorter refraction interval, the thing I envy the most in the young is their certainty.


I'm not all that thrilled with the increasing power of our OWN central government and would prefer some reversion to the states.


Beskar and the other EU centralists want one big happy state with adminstrative districts called France, Germany etc. Can't say as I favor that for Europe either, though ultimately its up to them not to me.

[LittleGrizzly]

Wow. How blatant and 'out there'.

And euro's wonder why yanks are suspicious. Beskar is a young guy. That he holds such thoughts and entertains them, tells me that the USSR didn't die , it simply got smarter, to wit: quit the shoe-banging at the UN, stop the economically-draining arms race with the US... just spread the word. The word of universal harmony. Directed by people who know what's good/best for the people.

I don't know if you missed the post or didn't know the source of the quote. Winston Churchill (fairly conservative and a big hater of communism) The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with your average voter. I don't think the view that people are generally un educated... or at least not very knowledagable on politics is a paticularly shocking one. I know for a fact that most of my friends are clueless about politics, admittedly most of these are about 18-20 but i find even as you go up the age groups there is a shocking lack of knowledge about politics... even in the intrested...

Seamus, out of interest would you prefer the states under one national goverment with more state rights, which is something like i would want in Europe. Or 50 seperate countrys with free trade agreements and occasional overlaps in policy where the states (now seperate countrys) work together ?

[Incongruous]

I don't know if you missed the post or didn't know the source of the quote. Winston Churchill (fairly conservative and a big hater of communism) The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with your average voter. I don't think the view that people are generally un educated... or at least not very knowledagable on politics is a paticularly shocking one. I know for a fact that most of my friends are clueless about politics, admittedly most of these are about 18-20 but i find even as you go up the age groups there is a shocking lack of knowledge about politics... even in the intrested...

Seamus, out of interest would you prefer the states under one national goverment with more state rights, which is something like i would want in Europe. Or 50 seperate countrys with free trade agreements and occasional overlaps in policy where the states (now seperate countrys) work together ?

So, the best thing is to sort out your own backyard before expanding it and then realising that it's just as bad.

If people are uninterested about politics now, why the heck will they take an interest in the maze of toss which comprises the EU. Instead of lambasting your fellow taxpayers and Britons for not knowing enough, seek a solution, if they do not know enough, help them know enough. Do not use their lack of knowledge as a weapon against them or as reason to disregard their what they firmly hold as their right to have a say. Doing anything else will merely anatgonise those people who view the EU through a mist of fear and apprehension.

[Beskar]

If I actually said my true beliefs then people here would simply dismiss them because they are far further down the pipe-line. The idea of minimising trade-discrepancy is classed as "Out there" and "long-term" at the moment.

However, I am going to raise up some points, which show some weird contridictions or a bias.

The UK is a mess, I would also put it that the EU is a mess, the best thing to do is to stop and fix the problems....

Apologise for cutting your vote short, but I hold the same opinion, Britain is a mess, the whole idea we even still have a monarch is stupid and backwards. The idea there are MP's who stated that the public should have no say in regards to Tax Payers money and even belief they are better than the people they are serving.

you say that the average man doesn't know what is good for him. What distinguishes you from the average man?

Want the really short answer? I voted. Yes, only 33% or so of the population voted in the MEP elections and even most of them went to a complete waste. By this fact alone, the average person doesn't even bother to vote, most likely has minimum or no interest in politics and simply don't even care. Such behaviour causes mass idiocies and allows the government to get away with signing things like the Lisbon treaty without countries even having a say in the matter. Majority of this general apathy is to do with the lack of democracy in the system.

The long story is that I believe I am different for reasons, that doesn't mean I am better, it just means I am different. Like a lawyer to a doctor to an accountant. They are different but one is not better than another as a whole.

That he holds such thoughts and entertains them, tells me that the USSR didn't die , it simply got smarter

You are confusing political ideology, as I am on the opposite side to the USSR. The USSR is a totalitarian regime which believes in complete centralisation and control. I believe the power should be in the hands of the people in direct democracy system and ministers/mp's/etc are merely elected civil servants who follow the will of the people and have no power as such themselves in a sense that it doesn't create a new class. Actually, if anything, the world is coming far more like the USSR, how many of your freedoms have been curbed in the "fight against terror" ? It is like the joke of "In Mother Russia, TV watches you" now, London is the CCTV capital of the world, it brings those Mother Russia jokes to reality. Except, I am advocating a change from that, however, I am being thrown in with the Status Quo opposed to my progressive policies which defends liberties and civil rights?

Beskar and the other EU centralists want one big happy state with adminstrative districts called France, Germany etc. Can't say as I favor that for Europe either, though ultimately its up to them not to me.

I have two answers for this.

The current system of employing this, I am against, it is a guise by elites in enslaving the populations further against the will of the people. The other answer is, it can be done right where people actually have more power from it.

It is wrong to envision empowering people? It is wrong to able throw a bunch of people into one pool and go "You support the idea of a European Federation, you want to recreate the USSR!" when my policies and beliefs are drastically different and instead of attempting to see it that way, it simply gets dismissed or ignored.

You have no right to dictate merely because you believe you know best. Such thinking has in the past led to mass burnings of heretics for the good of the Respublica Christiana.

I know! I mean, Martin Luther spoke against the Catholic Church and look now, we have these protestants. You have William Wilberforce, so sure of his convictions against the British Slave Trade, even when all these people were lining their pockets at the expense of captured-africans. Thanks to his dedication, it played a massive part in ending this suffering.

Please don't use stupid examples, I can pull out loads of good ones.

[Beskar]

Instead of lambasting your fellow taxpayers and Britons for not knowing enough, seek a solution, if they do not know enough, help them know enough. Do not use their lack of knowledge as a weapon against them or as reason to disregard their what they firmly hold as their right to have a say. Doing anything else will merely anatgonise those people who view the EU through a mist of fear and apprehension.

I already spoke about this, please look earlier. I recommended teaching critical thinking and how to get your own sources equipping a population with the tools to make the right choices. Also, you have to remember, talking about a Federal Europe is on a completely different time-scale, no one is saying they want it tomorrow, it simply won't work and I believe as you said, you need to deal with the backyard first.

If you want some direct answers now, how about reading this:

The biggest answer would be declaring a Consitutional Republic and creating a 5-state Federal Government of Scotland, Wales, North England, South England and Northern Ireland. Before you wonder, majority of this framework is already in place, it is just that the majority are held by unelected dangos. Using the Britain "at the top" in regards to issues that effect everything, the majority of the power is at the local level, the top is merely a bridge/framework holding everything together.

In elections, we will keep with a similar system of how MP's are elected now, but they play their part now in their areas and not in Westminster and anyone representing the areas such as North England, would have to be elected separately. The part of MP's are merely administrative function and elected people to do the job while majority of policy is done through Direct Democracy and using resources such as the Internet to engage the public more with policies. You create a system of transparency, luckily the Freedom of Information Act has done great work in this field, to prevent issues such as corruption arising. All essential infrastructural resources such as energy/gas should be re-nationalised, removing the idiocy Thatcher put in place and we work on attempting to get energy independence to prevent foreign powers such as Russian forcing its will like it does with the likes of the Ukraine on us.

As for tackling issues such as apathy and lack of political education, in schools, the main underlying policies would be taught along with key skills such as being able to verify and examine sources of information, using critical thinking skills and other things in order to equip a population of informed politically aware citizens. Other causes would start to disappear as people would see the effects of decisions and know they are being heard.


How about that for a short couple of paragraphs? Doesn't really sound as authoritarian as people accuse me of trying to suggest.

[Furunculus]

Der Spiegel analysis: They prefer to sit with facists than federalists:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...0.html#ref=rss

Austrian People’s Party? Nope: they’re in the EPP. Gianfranco Fini’s “post-fascist” Alleanza Nazionale? Nope, EPP too.

i enjoy reading der speigel, it is interesting to get a german perspective, but really, what a load of rubbish!

[CountArach]

Der Spiegel analysis: They prefer to sit with facists than federalists:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/newre...te=1&p=2270495

What a very bizarre link

[Furunculus]

What a very bizarre link

sorry, vista updates slowed my quad-core computer to a crawl this morning, it was taking 60 seconds to scroll the screen down an inch with the middle mouse! and copy-n-paste picked up the wrong URL as a consequence.