Hoplitai too weak ?

[Maion Maroneios]

And about Spartans, I personally mod them in my game to have 2 Hp,

OK, that's something I would personally never do for example. This is grand cheating at it's top.

Maion

[Phalanx300]

i hear they're preparing a Predator vs Spartans sequel... supposedly Predators kidnap a whole mora of spartans to use as prey

Poor Predators .

That would make for a nice movie though, mans best vs the predators. To be honest I thought of the idea before .

Predator vs T-Rex would also be great.

[Cute Wolf]

OK, that's something I would personally never do for example. This is grand cheating at it's top.

Maion

At least I also fight them when I play as Makedon... Naturally, my Hetairoi wouldn't kill those spartans in some charges from the back, or Argyraspidai skewer them with just taking minimal casualities... now they killed each other better and won by a close margin... that's the spirit...

That's cheating when you turn them to 1 hp when play against them

[Maion Maroneios]

I believe you fail to understand that 30+ armour, excellent morale, immense stamina and 2HP on top of that makes them virtually unstoppable. Also, your mind seems to still be floating in the times of the 5th century BC, then the Agoge was much harsher than it was 2 centuries later. Spartans were over their golden age, get over it.

Maion

[Cute Wolf]

I believe you fail to understand that 30+ armour, excellent morale, immense stamina and 2HP on top of that makes them virtually unstoppable. Also, your mind seems to still be floating in the times of the 5th century BC, then the Agoge was much harsher than it was 2 centuries later. Spartans were over their golden age, get over it.

Maion

They are not unstoppable, they just made as a really tough guys... and I roleplay, what if the agoge system has been beefed up again...

Just try to grind the 2 Hp spartans with 2 units Agrianai Axemen and you'll see that Agrianai still wins...
When u know the right timing... and sandwich them

[Maion Maroneios]

Still, it's something I'd personally never do.

Maion

[Flavius_Belisarius]

enough of this already. watchman and the others have more than answered the question.

the problem is that flavius belisarius seems to be using his own intuition to rebut your statements about an inflexible phalanx. soldiers arranged in a square of pike formation could in theory be easily ordered to turn their pikes in another direction, right?

the problem with this assumption, and i hope you're reading this flavius belisarius, is that it fails to take into account the fact that the pikes in question were about 20 feet long, that's two storeys for easy visualization. imagine trying to manipulate that and then turning in another direction, then lowering it down again; it would have been very difficult considering the weight of the pike itself coupled with it actually acting like a LEVER ARM, which would have applied tremendous magnitudes of MOMENT on the mens' arms. many would have not been able to get their pikes upright, let alone KEEP their pikes upright; many would inevitably have hit each others' pikes or other soldiers themselves, and as for the latter: it would have been incredibly difficult to balance a pike upright (try keeping a stick upright on your hand. difficult isn't it?), what more if someone hit it? all this, together with the mere thought that a company of enemy soldiers were rushing towards the flanks of the formation they were in, would have caused great confusion and panic.

now, as for the hoplites being 'too weak', it depends entirely on the situation ie. frame of reference. if you're charging a phalanx head on, then of course you'd think they're weak. you'd be blind and without any common sense to think that anyone would have had any remote chance of defeating an enemy 15-20 feet away, which is the case when you're fighting a man with a 20-foot pike. an attack from the flanks, or better, from behind, and things swing dramatically toward the aggressor's favor.

hoplites in my opinion are excellent troops to use defensively. offensively, they might lose out to javelin-hurling units just because of the, well, javelins. but with good maneuvering, positioning, and of course, tactics (and not with the tactic-less frontal assault you[flavius belisarius] seem to be doing), ANY good-quality infantry will defeat any other infantry force, or any other force for that matter. any good attack doesn't rely on JUST an assault; for it to succeed you need to create opportunities to take advantage of. defense on the other hand requires you to block any attempt by the enemy to create the aforementioned opportunities, which is precisely what you are NOT DOING by letting the enemy charge your hoplitai with heavy cavalry, for heaven's sake, REPEATEDLY. REPEATEDLY. REPEATEDLY.

i don't know about you, but it seems flavius belisarius is using the alleged "underpowered-ness" of hoplitai as a scapegoat for bad generalship.

Thanks for this informativ explaination. Then my point of view of phalanx was totaly false. I was quite sure of that what i said. Im sorry but im glad now to know how it really is.

I have one question about the hoplitais. Had such a phalanx formation of hoplitais a chance against sword bearing warriors? So were Legionarys simply more flexible than hoplitais so that they could surround the phalanx or were swords simply more effectiv in close melee combat ?

Edidt.: The reason why i came to the statement are hoplitais too weak, was because i thougth that they are offensive units. I was in the believe that they were used in real only of assaults.

[Phalanx300]

Hoplites are offensive units, not in the way as other units but they certainly weren't units used for defense.

In frontal combat units like Romans didn't have much chance, from the front Hoplites were nigh-impossible to beat with loose order units.

[Flavius_Belisarius]

Hoplites are offensive units, not in the way as other units but they certainly weren't units used for defense.

In frontal combat units like Romans didn't have much chance, from the front Hoplites were nigh-impossible to beat with loose order units.

So hoplitais are still to weak in this game because they cant face any heavy infantery altough they could in real? Or is there something which Im missing.

[Phalanx300]

So hoplitais are still to weak in this game because they cant face any heavy infantery altough they could in real? Or is there something which Im missing.

That the Hoplite Phalanx can't be accurately depicted using Rome Total War, thats the point.

[Macilrille]

Also, the Hellene-lovers are exaggerating the effectiveness of long spears, as soon as you get past the point a spear is no longer dangerous. In fact in all Pyrrhos' battles with the Romans the Legions met the Phalanx head on and fought it to a standstill with even numbers. It was, in all instances the Romans lost those battles, a question of Pyrrhos deploying his elephants in the right place and time.

The times I can think of where a Phalanx met a Legionary force head on and pushed it back it was the Makedons at Cynoscephalai and Pydna. However, the phalanx then lost order and was thus opened to the more mobile legionaires, effectively dooming the phalangites.

There was also a phalanx holding a breach in a wall against the odds sometimes during the 2nd Makedonian, but with its flanks covered by a wall the phalanx was close to invulnerable, so that is logical- and the ideal way to use it.

True Hoplitai I do not really know about, did they actually ever face the Legions? But I imagine the result would be much the same.

[Maion Maroneios]

Also, the Hellene-lovers are exaggerating the effectiveness of long spears, as soon as you get past the point a spear is no longer dangerous. In fact in all Pyrrhos' battles with the Romans the Legions met the Phalanx head on and fought it to a standstill with even numbers. It was, in all instances the Romans lost those battles, a question of Pyrrhos deploying his elephants in the right place and time.

That's why phalanxes alone don't stand a chance against such an enemy. The reason Alexandros reached the ends of the world wasn't because he had such an unstoppable phalanx line that ripped the enemy to pieces, rather than pin the enemy for the cavalry to flank. It's called hammer and anvil tactic, you know.

Maion

[Watchman]

The main difference between a "spearman" and a "swordsman" is that the latter has the sword as his primary close-combat weapon, the former as a backup sidearm. Guess what the former does when the latter manages to get "past the point" ?
Geniuses. I'm getting tired of having to reiterate the obvious like this.

Anyway, closely spaced spearmen in general and pikemen in particular have the benefit of multiple "enaging ranks" - at least two for long-spearmen, something like four for pikemen. Anyone wanting to get to grips with the pikemen themselves somehow needs to negotiate himself through *several* successive walls of uncomfortable closely spaced spear-tips, all the while trying not to get tangled up in the shafts themselves... IIRC, the Romans for their part regarded the feat as near-unachievable and just did like everyone else, ie. traded ground for time until the pike line became disjointed, hit rough ground etc. which created openings to exploit.

In straight hand-to-hand fight I'd imagine hoplite-style shieldwall spearmen would do fairly well against Roman legionaries - more reach, overlapping shields, tighter formation giving at least 3-to-2 local advantage, at least two first ranks can engage. The stumbling block ? Pilum. All javelins do bad things to shields, major among which is getting stuck in them and weighing them down. Heavy high-penetration "shield-killers" like the Italic pilum take that to the next level - even if the shieldbearer is lucky enough not to get nailed by the meter-long iron shank when the thing punches a hole in the shield, he now has that thing projecting to his side of it which obviously rather inconveniences the effective use of the whole shield plus what, two or three kilos of spear dragging it down...
And even for shieldwall infantry the hoplites were *particularly* dependent on their shields.

[Mikhail Mengsk]

I agree. It was when the successors underpowered their cavalry in numbers (broking Alexandros' "golden proportion") that the "anvil and hammer" tactic became way less effective.

[Phalanx300]

True Hoplitai I do not really know about, did they actually ever face the Legions? But I imagine the result would be much the same.

When the Romans attacked Corinth they faced them, Roman right flank was broken . Though those were the reformed Hoplites.

Hoplites fight face to face you know, not 6 metres apart from their enemy. As a hoplite your enemy would be like 10 cm away from you.


Watchmen, there's no way a Pilum would be able to penetrate a Hoplite shield, only ballistas were able to do such a thing.

[Watchman]

Dude. The hoplite aspis was single-ply wood with a millimeter-thin stressed bronze covering. For the sake of comparision the Italic scuta were three-ply wood with a hide covering on both sides, which is around as strong as wooden shields now realistically get - and weighed a ton.
Pila, far as I know, holed scuta readily enough - what do you *think* the Italians had mainly been throwing them at for centuries ?

[ARCHIPPOS]

Also, the Hellene-lovers are exaggerating the effectiveness of long spears, as soon as you get past the point a spear is no longer dangerous.

The times I can think of where a Phalanx met a Legionary force head on and pushed it back it was the Makedons at Cynoscephalai and Pydna. However, the phalanx then lost order and was thus opened to the more mobile legionaires, effectively dooming the phalangites.

QUOTED FROM WIKI-THE BATTLE OF CYNOSCEPHALAE;
"Philip's right wing was now on higher ground than the Roman left, and was at first successful against them. His left wing and center, made up of another 8,000 phalangites, however were still disorganized and in marching position, so they had not even formed the phalanx yet, and as Flamininus sent his elephants charging into them, they routed. After breaking through, one of the Roman tribunes took twenty maniples (a smaller division of the legion) and attacked the Macedonian right wing from behind. The Macedonians were unable to reposition themselves as quickly as the Roman maniples. Now surrounded by both wings of the Roman legion, they suffered heavy casualties and fled."
QUOTED FROM WIKI-THE BATTLE OF PYDNA;
"Paulus claimed later that the sight of the phalanx filled him with alarm and amazement. The Romans tried to beat down the enemy pikes or hack off their points, but with little success. Unable to get under the thick bristle of spikes, the Romans were beaten back, and some of their allies abandoned the field.
But as the phalanx pushed forward, the ground became more uneven as it moved into the foothills, and the line lost its cohesion. Paulus now ordered the legions into the gaps, attacking the phalangites on their exposed flanks. At close quarters the longer Roman sword and heavier shield easily prevailed over the short sword (little more than a dagger) and lighter armor of the Macedonians. They were soon joined by the Roman right, which had succeeded in routing the Macedonian left."

So which were the turning points of both battles??? In Cynoscephalae the left phallanx was on the move when it got charged by elephants ...
In Pydna the phallangites pushed through only to lose some of their pike wall cohesion ...the Romans not short of sharp commanding immediately exploited this and flanked the phallanxes on their gaps (possibly the gaps between the different phallanx squares???)...

need i say it again??? Flanked!!! FLANKED!!! FLAAAAAAAAANKED!!!

HEAD-ON PHALANX COLISION=SERIOUS DISADVANTAGE

also abt the "hellene-lovers-angle"... some people are convinced that the phalanxes were certainly not at a tactical disadvantage over the Romans and that with a more charismatic and sharp leadership the hammer and anvil might have prevailed... that's all ...

[Phalanx300]

Dude. The hoplite aspis was single-ply wood with a millimeter-thin stressed bronze covering. For the sake of comparision the Italic scuta were three-ply wood with a hide covering on both sides, which is around as strong as wooden shields now realistically get - and weighed a ton.
Pila, far as I know, holed scuta readily enough - what do you *think* the Italians had mainly been throwing them at for centuries ?

Are you now saying that the Scutum was thicker then the Aspis? The Hoplite shield is probably the thickest shield ever, why do you think it weighted around 10kg?

[antisocialmunky]

When the Romans attacked Corinth they faced them, Roman right flank was broken . Though those were the reformed Hoplites.

Hoplites fight face to face you know, not 6 metres apart from their enemy. As a hoplite your enemy would be like 10 cm away from you.


Watchmen, there's no way a Pilum would be able to penetrate a Hoplite shield, only ballistas were able to do such a thing.

You could always just refer to the accounts of the Samnite Wars and the Wars of Italian unification before the Punic War. Rome used to fight in a hoplite style but they transitioned to the looser manipular style after getting schooled by the Samnites they adopted that idea from.

A great deal of it had to do with some of the terrain that the Samnites fought on rather than outright fighting power though.

[Dutchhoplite]

When the Romans attacked Corinth they faced them, Roman right flank was broken . Though those were the reformed Hoplites.

Errrr...(historical) source please??

[Watchman]

Are you now saying that the Scutum was thicker then the Aspis? The Hoplite shield is probably the thickest shield ever, why do you think it weighted around 10kg?

Now you're just talking out of your arse, mate. Go read.

TL;DR - the aspis averaged around 15 pounds weight (ca. 7 kg) and 0.2" (ca. 5 mm, calculating in my head) thick; the scutum, depending heavily on specific model and period, was 15-22 pounds (7-11 kg) and went from about 0.4" (1 cm) in the center to 0.2" in the edges thick.

"Lick my blinky diodes."
- Aaron Stack, Nextwave

[Maion Maroneios]

Are you now saying that the Scutum was thicker then the Aspis? The Hoplite shield is probably the thickest shield ever, why do you think it weighted around 10kg?

I'm afraid Watchman is right. The aspis though heavy and thick, is not unpenetrable. The force delivered by a falling javelin has to do with the angle thrown (and thus falling), the weight of it and the surface area of the tip. The speed with which it is thrown plays an important role as well. Needless to say, even a well-aimed thick rock (like those fired by the Baelaric slingers) could shatter an aspis I think. That is according to a source from an EB insciption, saying 1,000 Baelaric slingers routed several thousand Greek hoplites. Could be wrong here.

Maion

[Phalanx300]

Now you're just talking out of your arse, mate. Go read.

TL;DR - the aspis averaged around 15 pounds weight (ca. 7 kg) and 0.2" (ca. 5 mm, calculating in my head) thick; the scutum, depending heavily on specific model and period, was 15-22 pounds (7-11 kg) and went from about 0.4" (1 cm) in the center to 0.2" in the edges thick.

"Lick my blinky diodes."
- Aaron Stack, Nextwave

Aspis was a thick layer of poplar wood with a layer of bronze on it, if anything it certainly is the thickest shield, scutum has one holder for your hand which would mean that it shouldn't be too heavy.

Also a Falx was able to penetrate deeply into a Scutum while against an Aspis it definately would have an harder time.

A Pilum penetrating a Aspis is just wishfull fantasy, Scutum wouldn't be able to survive the pushing in the Phalanx as well as an Aspis as well.

5 mm? Maybe that one from Deadliest Warrior or 300 but the real deal definately wasn't that thin.

[Maion Maroneios]

Aspis was a thick layer of poplar wood with a layer of bronze on it, if anything it certainly is the thickest shield, scutum has one holder for your hand which would mean that it shouldn't be too heavy.

Also a Falx was able to penetrate deeply into a Scutum while against an Aspis it definately would have an harder time.

A Pilum penetrating a Aspis is just wishfull fantasy, Scutum wouldn't be able to survive the pushing in the Phalanx as well as an Aspis as well.

5 mm? Maybe that one from Deadliest Warrior or 300 but the real deal definately wasn't that thin.

As much as I'd like to believe either you or Watchman, I've learned to rely on proof. If someone can find some sources on how exactly a scutum and an aspis was made (as well as an average pilum), we could make some comparisons and hopefully derive some results.

And just for the sake of being reasonable, try to back your statements up Phalanx. At least Watchman presents something to back up his statements. I'm not taking enyone's side here, but I prefer someone who actually speculates based on something instead of pure personal unbased oppinion.

Maion

[Watchman]

*shrug* Teh Wiki isn't feeling helpful on the topic regarding specific references, and that's the extent of effort I'm willing to expend into humoring you. Go read books like I did.

[Phalanx300]

*shrug* Teh Wiki isn't feeling helpful on the topic regarding specific references, and that's the extent of effort I'm willing to expend into humoring you. Go read books like I did.

Very well, then you start reading some good books.

[Watchman]

I'm not the one making historically inaccurate claims here you know.

[Phalanx300]

I'm not the one making historically inaccurate claims here you know.

Or so you think.

How about I'll get behind an Aspis and you'll start trowing pilums at me, if I survive I win the bet?

[Watchman]

And if you don't survive I get to go to jail without passing Go ?

'Sides, the point of the pilum wasn't so much to kill the other guy (though it was obviously good if it did) but rather deprive him of his shield.

[Phalanx300]

And if you don't survive I get to go to jail without passing Go ?

'Sides, the point of the pilum wasn't so much to kill the other guy (though it was obviously good if it did) but rather deprive him of his shield.

If.

Exactly, and I'm sure thats what it did, yet against an Aspis I'm not sure it would be able to penetrate it, also looking at the curve in the shield.