The Prince of Wales

[Romanus]

That, too. But they brought some very necessary changes, for instance administrative centralisation, the dissolution of the guild system, the emancipation of the Jews. If only their language hadn't been this unfathomable brabble...

Indeed, the big problem of the republic was that it was basically a state based on medieval insitutions. There had been some attempts to reform the state in the 18th century but the patricians of the individual states and cities blocked.

[Adrian II]

The [/i]country[/i] of the Netherlands, in any name, shape or form, only came about when several provinces sat themselves together and assumed sovereignity.

Nope.

The Lowlands, Netherlands or Seventeen Provinces were declared one and indivisible under the Pragmatic Sanction of 1549.

Charles, par la divine clémence Empereur de Romains toujours auguste, Roy de Germanie, de Castille, de Léon, de Grenade, d'Aragon etc. Sçavoir faisons à tous présents et advenir, que comme nous ayons tousjours soigneusement et curieusement veillé à tout ce que a concerné le bien, repos et tranquillité de nos Pays de pardeçà, et pourveu non seulement à ce que nous sembloit nécessaire pour le présent, mais aussi aux choses à l'advenir, afin que nosdits Pays fussent tant mieux régis, gouvernez et conservez en leur entier, et estant nostre intention de tousjours faire le mesme envers iceux avec touts convenables moyens qui se pourront offrir, nous avons considéré qu'il importoit grandement à nosdits Pays pour l'entière seureté et establissement d'iceux, que pour l'advenir ils demeurassent tousjours soubs un mesme Prince, pour les tenir en une masse, bien connoissant que, venans à tomber en diverses mains par droict de succession héréditaire, ce seroit l'évidante éversion et ruine d'iceux.

They even had their own flag:





Only 99 years later did part of the Netherlands become a republic, known as the Republic of the Seven United Provinces.

Of course if want to maintain that our country became a country only when it became a country in your book, I will gracefully bow to your Cartesian logic.

[Louis VI the Fat]

He said that his brother was a good fellow. Napoleon himself was a tyrant and dictator who ruined our country, destroyed what was left of our industry and trade and conscripted our manhood. The french had been robbing us blind since 1795 when they where allowed to march in with the help of the so-called exiled patriots. Freedom and liberty my arse.

I see that underneath your name it says: 'Fearful Jesuit'.

The Dutch Catholics were emancipated by the Revolutionaries. For such, amongst others, was the 'tyranny' the French armies brought: freedom of religion.

The worth of the nationalist-protestant-monarchist variant of Dutch history, I shall decide with my bummy-bum, in a moment when I visit the toilette.

I will cease to derail the discussion onto the nature of power and allow it to return to Charles

We are going of on all sorts of tangents in this thread. Your thoughts about the nature of power are not more off-topic than Cromwell, Napoleon or republicanism.

By all means debate your preference for monarchs if you feel like it. Where's the fun if we don't disagree with one another?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh. Dear. :feignedshock:

'The Netherlands' was a geographic name. 'Les Pays-Bas', that is, 'The Low lands'. It was also a political name, a collective name for seventeen Germanic/French provinces.

The [/i]country[/i] of the Netherlands, in any name, shape or form, only came about when several provinces sat themselves together and assumed sovereignity.


Likewise, the name 'the America's' is older than the United States of America. It was called 'Spanish America', or 'French America'. Yet, the country 'The United States of America' dates back not to Columbus, not to the first British settlementm but to, exactly, July 4th, 1776.
Similarly too, there has always been a 'Germany'. Yet, the country of East Germany does not date back to 1870 or before. It dates back to 1949.

As with East Germany in 1900, there was no notion of a country of the Northern Netherlands in 1500. The birth of the Netherlands was simultaneous to the birth of Republicanism.

I feel the need to point out that the Dutch Republic was composed of a number feudal lordships, not constitutional Republics. The Dutch Republic was also an oppressive theocracy.

I can see why the Dutch might think a Constitutional Monarchy a good idea.

Oh, I've just realised something. I think most surviving Constitutional Monarchies are Protestant, while there are lots of predominantly Catholic Republics.

[Adrian II]

Where's the fun if we don't disagree with one another?

Louis, I love you in a manly, backroomish sort of way. There is no time like the wee small hours to confess to such sentiments and I will probably regret this tomorrow, but you are the best thing to happen to this forum since TosaInu set it up. Furthermore, I promise to never, ever agree with you on anything. Now, back to your ramblings about statecraft.

I feel the need to point out that the Dutch Republic was composed of a number feudal lordships, not constitutional Republics.

Eh? The Dutch Republic was a republic of lords, is that what you're suggesting?

The Dutch Republic was also an oppressive theocracy.

Psst, don't tell Louis..

[Louis VI the Fat]

The Lowlands, Netherlands or Seventeen Provinces were declared one and indivisible under the Pragmatic Sanction of 1549.

Of course if want to maintain that our country became a country only when it became a country in your book, I will gracefully bow to your Cartesian logic.

Bow? We shall have to disagree to disagree then, for I shall argue it a bit longer.

The Pragmatic Sanction was a personal union under Charles V. In 1581, the Northern Netherlands declared themselves absolved from this union in the Acte de la Haye. (Act of The Hague). This was a declaration of indepence. What's more, the creation of something new. The continuity of the Spanish Netherlands was with the Southern Netherlands.


By the way - this explains the difference in identity between the Netherlands and Belgium. The Netherlands have a strong national identity, being an old country, of their own making.
Belgium by contrast was what was left of the Burgundian lands. A rump state. Lacking a clear national identity.
(And when Belgium at last became a clear entity of it's own, it was a Walloon state. To this day, the goal of Wallonia is Belgium, that of Flanders is Flanders)


Ah well. I've pretty much exhausted the subject too.

~~-~~-~~-~~<<oOo>>~~-~~-~~-~~

The Dutch Republic was also an oppressive theocracy.

Psst, don't tell Louis..

Too late!

The Dutch Catholics were emancipated by the Revolutionaries. For such, amongst others, was the 'tyranny' the French armies brought: freedom of religion.

~~-~~-~~-~~<<oOo>>~~-~~-~~-~~

'Louis, I love you in a manly, backroomish sort of way. Furthermore, I promise to never, ever agree with you on anything'.
I love you too and so I promise to never admit you are right about anything. Dearest, I knew that deep down you like it ruff, just as much as I do, but were simply scared to admit it.

~~-~~-~~-~~<<oOo>>~~-~~-~~-~~

I think most surviving Constitutional Monarchies are Protestant, while there are lots of predominantly Catholic Republics.

I can only think of Spain, Belgium, Luxembourg and Liechtenstein.

Catholics breed like rabbits though. Soon we'll take over Canada, the UK and the Netherlands.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I can only think of Spain, Belgium, Luxembourg and Liechtenstein.

Catholics breed like rabbits though. Soon we'll take over Canada, the UK and the Netherlands.

To the Monarchist list you can add, Norway, Denmark and Sweden.

Though, if you fudge you can call England a Scandanavian country instead.

[Sarmatian]

I promise to never, ever agree with you on anything.

Bow? We shall have to disagree to disagree then, for I shall argue it a bit longer.

And I fully support this stance. Reading your arguments is a pleasure. Like an intellectual orgasm.

Louis, I love you in a manly, backroomish sort of way.

This was okay.

I love you too and so I promise to never admit you are right about anything. Dearest, I knew that deep down you like it ruff, just as much as I do, but were simply scared to admit it.

This one a bit on the gay side, Louis.

[Louis VI the Fat]

This one a bit on the gay side, Louis.

One of the social graces I lack, is the means to accept a compliment.

Or gifts too. I am pathetic at receiving compliments or giving them. I know I like to receive one, but am then ungracious about it and avoid the subject with a diversion.
Worse is that I always forget to give compliments. There are dozens of posters here whom I really like and many whom I adore. Yet I hardly ever say so, for which I've actually felt bad before.

You, Sarmatian, and I've long meant to tell you this, are not one of these poste...darn, nearly fell for the crap joke as a diversion again.
*scrapes throat*:
I like you in general and in particular I laughed out loud at your 'making a list of you people for the coming communist revolution' in the 'what's your class' thread, where I was too ungracious to say so.

[HoreTore]

Charles, par la divine clémence Empereur de Romains toujours auguste, Roy de Germanie, de Castille, de Léon, de Grenade, d'Aragon etc. Sçavoir faisons à tous présents et advenir, que comme nous ayons tousjours soigneusement et curieusement veillé à tout ce que a concerné le bien, repos et tranquillité de nos Pays de pardeçà, et pourveu non seulement à ce que nous sembloit nécessaire pour le présent, mais aussi aux choses à l'advenir, afin que nosdits Pays fussent tant mieux régis, gouvernez et conservez en leur entier, et estant nostre intention de tousjours faire le mesme envers iceux avec touts convenables moyens qui se pourront offrir, nous avons considéré qu'il importoit grandement à nosdits Pays pour l'entière seureté et establissement d'iceux, que pour l'advenir ils demeurassent tousjours soubs un mesme Prince, pour les tenir en une masse, bien connoissant que, venans à tomber en diverses mains par droict de succession héréditaire, ce seroit l'évidante éversion et ruine d'iceux.

I have to admit something.

My willie always wakes up when I hear french, even when I read it, as I can't help myself from fantasizing that there's a seductive hottie whispering the words...

I really should move there. Soon. And learn the language.

[Adrian II]

And so we all love each other at the end of this thread. A singular feat, gentlemen. In the words of that unrivalled poet of all mankind Molière Shakespeare: 'All's well that ends well.'

[Pannonian]

I have to admit something.

My willie always wakes up when I hear french, even when I read it, as I can't help myself from fantasizing that there's a seductive hottie whispering the words...

I really should move there. Soon. And learn the language.

More to the point, how does your wife react when you talk about octosquid in French?

[Sarmatian]

One of the social graces I lack, is the means to accept a compliment.


I like you in general and in particular I laughed out loud at your 'making a list of you people for the coming communist revolution' in the 'what's your class' thread, where I was too ungracious to say so.

Thanks.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

See how easy it is?

I have to admit something.

My willie always wakes up when I hear french, even when I read it, as I can't help myself from fantasizing that there's a seductive hottie whispering the words...

I really should move there. Soon. And learn the language.

On the other hand, if you do move to France, you'll be walking around town with a hard-on constantly. Might make social functions a bit, shall we say, problematic...

[Louis VI the Fat]

On the other hand, if you do move to France, you'll be walking around town with a hard-on constantly. Might make social functions a bit, shall we say, problematic...

Nonsense. I function perfectly fine socially, no problems...

[KukriKhan]

Euro's.

Such Liars.

[InsaneApache]

Blimey, we've been sussed lads.

[KukriKhan]

LOL. And let me beat Frenchie to the punch:


"Yanks.

So Naïve."

[Prodigal]

Not read any of this thread...Not even the OP, but really...What on earth possessed the royal family to call their first born son Charles? Like the last two Kings by that name had a really good time of it & brought luck, peace & prosperity to the kingdom. Cival war, Plague, London burnt down, & lets not forget the institution of a dictator that's made the Irish hate us for centuries due to his bloody barbarism. I feel that hand of the Duke in this matter.

[Romanus]

George VI was known as prince Albert before he became king. Charles will probably reign as George VII.

[Prodigal]

George VI was known as prince Albert before he became king. Charles will probably reign as George VII.

In faith! Me thinks thou do endowest our goodly prince with too vast an intellect sirrah.

[HoreTore]

More to the point, how does your wife react when you talk about octosquid in French?

Fortunately, I'm single.

On the other hand, if you do move to France, you'll be walking around town with a hard-on constantly. Might make social functions a bit, shall we say, problematic...

I said he woke up, not that he was ready for business

[Pannonian]

Fortunately, I'm single.

For some reason, I read "willie" as "wife". Some might say that it's evidence that, when browsing, people see the first and last letters of a word and fill in the rest automatically. Some might say that there's some other unconscious meaning to it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

In faith! Me thinks thou do endowest our goodly prince with too vast an intellect sirrah.

Don't call people sirrah, it's offensive. In any case, Charles has already declared his intention to rule as George.

[Prodigal]

should have known that one wouldn't go unnoticed. It can also be considered simply disrespectful in its familiarity, course siree is pretty much the same thing...But saying "yes siree" isn't beyond the pale

[Louis VI the Fat]

Just watched something on BBC1 called the Richard Dimbelby Lecture or something and the Prince of Wales was on it. he actually came across as an intelligent guy with some interesting points to raise.

How dare you come in here and write an on-topic post!


No, thanks for that of course.

The Richard Dimbleby Lecture, titled “Facing the Future” as delivered by Tampax Man:

So, Ladies and Gentlemen, we may well be told that we live in a “post-Modernist” age, but we are still conditioned by Modernism’s central tenets. Our outlook is dominated by mechanistic thinking which has led to our disconnection from the complexity of Nature, which is, or should be, equally reflected in the complexity of human communities. But in many ways we have also succeeded in abstracting our very humanity to the mere expression of individualism and moral relativism, and to the point where so many communities are threatened with extinction. Facing the future, therefore, requires a shift from a reductive, mechanistic approach to one that is more balanced and integrated with Nature’s complexity – one that recognizes not just the build up of financial capital, but the equal importance of what we already have – environmental capital and, crucially, what I might best call “community capital.” That is, the networks of people and organizations, the post offices and pubs, the churches and village halls, the mosques, temples and bazaars – the wealth that holds our communities together; that enriches people’s lives through mutual support, love, loyalty and identity. Just as we have no way of accounting for the loss of the natural world, contemporary economics has no way of accounting for the loss of this community capital.

[...]

It seems to me a self-evident truth that we cannot have any form of capitalism without capital. But we must remember that the ultimate source of all economic capital is Nature’s capital. The true wealth of all nations comes from clean rivers, healthy soil and, most importantly of all, a rich biodiversity of life. Our ability to adapt to the effects of climate change, and then perhaps even to reduce those effects, depends upon us adapting our pursuit of “unlimited” economic growth to that of “sustainable” economic growth. And that depends upon basing our approach on the fundamental resilience of our ecosystems. Ecosystem resilience leads to economic resilience. If we carry on destroying our marine and forest ecosystems as we are doing, then we will rob them of their natural resilience and so end up destroying our own.
That is why it seems to me of such profound importance that we understand that we are not what we think we are. We are not the masters of creation. No matter how sophisticated our technology has become, the simple fact is that we are not separate from Nature – like everything else, we are Nature.
The more you understand this fact the more you see how our mechanistic way of thinking causes such confusion.

Okay, so like a Christmas speech, it is entirely gratuitous. Every stoned 15 year old can give a grand oration on everything that is wrong with our greedy capitalist system.
Even so, there's a glimmering of intelligence and an independent mind. Or maybe I just think so because I agree with Charles. Community, urban and natural capital are where it's add.


Especially for Furunculus :

We also know that global warming

We also need, dare I say it, new forms of international collaboration

[Banquo's Ghost]

. Cival war, Plague, London burnt down, & lets not forget the institution of a dictator that's made the Irish hate us for centuries due to his bloody barbarism.[/SIZE]

Don't be modest. We had already hated you for several centuries prior to Cromwell.

George VI was known as prince Albert before he became king.

Indeed, but he realised that keeping his former name would have created friction.

[Pannonian]

Indeed, but he realised that keeping his former name would have created friction.

That may have done, but one has to admit that the name "Prince Albert" has a nice ring to it, a certain piercing quality.

[Furunculus]

Especially for Furunculus :

We also know that global warming................... (???)

We also need, dare I say it, new forms of international collaboration

in what manner does the first somewhat truncated sentence end?

agreed, collaboration is always good where there are shared aims, i've never argued otherwise. that does equate to federalism = good however.

[InsaneApache]

That may have done, but one has to admit that the name "Prince Albert" has a nice ring to it, a certain piercing quality.

Taking a quick glans through this post and this tickled my fancy. Cheers for the heads up.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Taking a quick glans through this post and this tickled my fancy. Cheers for the heads up.

That is just horrible in so many ways.