KOTF mod

[Zim]

I'd say it doesn't really matter. I suppose we might as well have at least one trade agreement when KOTF starts.

Not that it will last long.

My first impulse but I'd like to wait for Zim...

[_Tristan_]

OK then...

I will experiment with Rowan installer and play the first turn... We are nearing midnight here so don't expect the save and mugshots before tomorrow...

[TheFlax]

OK then...

I will experiment with Rowan installer and play the first turn... We are nearing midnight here so don't expect the save and mugshots before tomorrow...

If Rowan's installer works, you can simply send Zim the save, OK and I will take care of the mugshots right away.

[_Tristan_]

Yes but Zim wanted to try and add the Age mod... so we better for him to see if he can get it to work... That would be an addition I'm not willing to pass up.


EDIT : btw, Rowan' s installer seems to work just fine... I'm now going to re-install the files I had modded to enable the recruitment of the 45 RGBs...

[Zim]

Tristan and I are having some trouble with the age mod. Namely, generals young rather too frequently. I can see this causing problems if lots of players' generals are dying shortly after they get them. Perhaps we should stick with vanilla ages for now?

[econ21]

Perhaps we should stick with vanilla ages for now?

Seconded, I never found age of death a big problem in vanilla. Yes, the death rate is high after 60, but it did seem you usually could last that long (the gods of battle willing).

[_Tristan_]

The cost of uncertainty would be too high IMHO... and might ruin the fun part of the game.

[Cecil XIX]

Well, there always going to be generals dieing young. Having people die early is just as much a point of the mod as having them live longer. How did you test the age mod? What were the results?

[_Tristan_]

Some of the FMs and older RGBs would die around 40 (some having started at 30)... that leavesthe player only 15 turns ingame to make an impression... I know I wouldn't like it and I bet some others as well

In most of the playtests I've done King Philippe didn't survive past 1084...

[Cecil XIX]

Hmm... Sounds like more extensive testing is necessary. Of course, we could always fiddle the numbers around to give avatars more 'guaranteed life'. It's possible the range of life is on the extreme end right now.

[_Tristan_]

That would seem so... I'm not sure any amount of playtesting is worth the gain in uncertainty, though I hate saying it...

I would have loved to see kings of 80 years and sons dying at 30 but while it might be fun in a solo game, I don't think it is the right thing for a PBM.

[Cecil XIX]

It may be necessary to put it to a vote on what the minimum age should be. Something like:

• 20
• 30
• 40
• 50
• Any
• None
• Gah!

With a vote for 'None' meaning you want to drop the mod.

[ULC]

I vote none - simply because 1) more work, 2)the uncertainty leaves player hesitant about their character, and can make people more distant to them.

[woad&fangs]

To be honest, I kind of just want the RBGs to be recruited and the draft to start. I'm getting really anxious to pick a character.

[Zim]

RGBs are set to be recruited tomorrow.

To be honest, I kind of just want the RBGs to be recruited and the draft to start. I'm getting really anxious to pick a character.

[Cecil XIX]

I would say some level of unpredictability is desirable, rather than everyone dieing at the same age +/- a year like we have now. If we set it so people lived from ages 50-70, that would allow a good deal of unpredictablility while still guaranteeing a certain minimum of time. I would still prefer it to be longer though.

ZaPPPa says that it seems more like everybody's dieing young at the start because no one's had time to reach old age. The proper method of determining the suitabilility of the mod is mod the campaign file to start with about 100 or so diplomats, all at the same age - right when the start to die. You record the dates and how long they live, repeat as necessary, and use that data to draw conclusions. I'm more than willing to take on the task myself if Zim give me the parameters he's using. I could probably get some data tonight.

[OverKnight]

The rather predictable nature of old age deaths never bugged me too much. I'd vote for sticking with vanilla.

[TheFlax]

The rather predictable nature of old age deaths never bugged me too much. I'd vote for sticking with vanilla.

Ditto. I always thought it was a neat idea, but not nearly important to hold up the game. If people want to die younger of natural causes, they can always say so and we'll kill off the avatar. (I know its not exactly the same, but its the best we can do in vanilla.)

[deguerra]

I do rather like Cecil's idea, but I do also want to get started. If the mod is implemented, I'd probably go for 50-70, but I think the general consensus seems to be that we want to get going. I suppose if you can whip up something by tomorrow, Cecil, we could give it a look.

[ULC]

50-70 would be fine if it can be done by tomorrow, maybe even 50-80.

[Vladimir]

Vanilla is fine. Characters should have a relatively short life. Characters living to 80 is too long. If you lived to 60, you had a good life.

[Cecil XIX]

All right, I've modded descr_strat so that France starts with 100 diplomats, all age 50 and named Etienne Tristram. I'll see when they drop.

[Zim]

Tristan and I played with a couple of age ranges, eventually settling on trying for around 35-80 or 40-80. Those are the ranges starting characters kept dying within a couple turns on.

[Cecil XIX]

All right, I finished my first test. The first column is how many turns the diplomat lived past 50, the second is how many died at the start of that turn.

<max_age uint="70"/>
<max_age_before_death uint="71"/>
<old_age uint="50"/>

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1 0
2 5
3 2
4 6
5 3
6 3
7 5
8 0
9 7
10 4
11 3
12 4
13 3
14 4
15 2
16 5
17 2
18 2
19 3
20 2
21 1
22 1
23 5
24 2
25 2
26 4
27 0
28 2
29 2
30 2
21 2
32 3
33 1
34 1
35 1
36 4
37 0
38 1
39 0
40 0
41 0
42 1

The problem here is that the majority died in less than 16 turns, at the age of 57. I'm operating under the assumption that it's best if just as many people live past 60 as die before sixty, so it balances out without shifting from the normal death age. I'll try 40-80 now; do that about three times and see how it goes.

Zim, quick question: Did you set <max_age_before_death uint="81"/> For those tests? In order to spread out the deaths, it should only be one higher than 'max_age uint'. Any higher and people start dropping off really quickly once they reach the minimum age, like in vanilla LTC.

[Zim]

Tristan ran the tests, but I believe he did.

[Cecil XIX]

All right, second test.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1 0
2 1
3 1
4 4
5 2
6 1
7 0
8 5
9 0
10 1
11 5
12 1
13 3
14 3
15 2
16 2
17 3
18 3
19 4
20 0
21 2
22 3
23 2
24 1
25 2
26 0
27 1
28 0
29 0
30 1
31 1
32 0
33 0
34 0
35 0
36 3
37 0
38 1
39 3
40 4
41 2
42 2
43 4
44 1
45 2
46 4
47 1
48 3
49 1
50 1
51 0
52 5
53 1
54 0
55 0
56 1
57 1
58 0
59 0
60 0
61 0
62 1
63 0
64 3
65 0
66 2

Despite the change, results were similarly poor. Most diplomats were dead by age 52. Interestingly, both tests show the half-way point at about 33% through the span: 35% and 30% respectively. This suggests that if we choose a range of 40-100, or 50-80, half will die before age 60 and half will live after age 60. Gonna run another test from 40-80, 'disable_ai' sure makes this run quick.

[Cecil XIX]

Okay, the third test.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1 0
2 1
3 2
4 2
5 2
6 1
7 2
8 4
9 2
10 3
11 0
12 3
13 1
14 1
15 2
16 1
17 3
18 0
19 2
20 4
21 3
22 1
23 3
24 0
25 2
26 1
27 3
28 0
29 1
30 5
31 2
32 1
33 3
34 0
35 0
36 2
37 0
38 1
39 3
40 1
41 1
42 5
43 0
44 0
45 1
46 1
47 1
48 1
49 2
50 2
51 4
52 1
53 1
54 1
55 0
56 1
57 3
58 0
59 0
60 3
61 0
62 0
63 0
64 1
65 0
66 0
67 2
68 0
69 1

A little better than the first test under these parameters, but not by much. Again the half-way point is 35% of the range. That's three in a row, 30%-35%. I'm going to do the next 1-3 tests at 40-100. Fortunately I'm moving quickly now. Super Speed!

[AussieGiant]

I vote for leaving this at Vanilla levels.

This is starting to get a little leery for me.

The original idea was solid but I don't want to install this mod when we are getting results that are undesirable.

[econ21]

I'm not sure this is a good way to model mortality. Low life expectancies in real life usually reflect risks during childhood. In developing countries, if you make it into adulthood then - AIDS aside - you are very likely to make it to 60. Medieval Europe probably had higher mortality but still I am very leery about avatars dying of natural causes before 50.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the vanilla model of avatars reaching 60 and then croaking. In real life, once you get to 60, your days charging around the battlefield are surely coming to an end. Players are reluctant to retire in that way. So the game forces them to.

[Zim]

I'd consider doing the tests at the range of 50-80 next. That seems reasonable to me.