Positioning units for bridge defences

[Martok]

I find that their lack of morale is more than made up for with their morale affecting armament - especially in defensive battles.

You just highlighted what is -- for me, at least -- a key limitation on ashi teppo units: I only truly find them useful in defensive battles. When attacking, I almost never employ them at all. Their range is too short, and can be too easily flanked since I prefer to attack over more open terrain as a general rule.

Of course, to be fair, I usually don't use Sam Archers a lot in offensive battles either, but I still find them to be at least more useful than arq/musket troops.

[caravel]

You just highlighted what is -- for me, at least -- a key limitation on ashi teppo units: I only truly find them useful in defensive battles. When attacking, I almost never employ them at all. Their range is too short, and can be too easily flanked since I prefer to attack over more open terrain as a general rule.

Of course, to be fair, I usually don't use Sam Archers a lot in offensive battles either, but I still find them to be at least more useful than arq/musket troops.

True enough, though you can take them into an offensive engagement if you deploy in a defensive formation. You need a very cautious advance, moving from one defensive position to the next. The key is to lure the enemy to attack your formation. You can get some massive kills because the enemy believes it can take on your Ashigaru units and win easily. If you were to deploy with lots of monks and other Samurai, the AI often retreats without a blow exchanged/shot fired.

I for one, prefer some aspects of the AI in STW over the improved MTW AI. I find that the enemy make more use of the high ground and woods in STW especially.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I use musket teppo fairly often while on the attack. I would generally have only one or two as opposed to three or four for a defensive engagement. The trick is to be patient in how you deploy them.

In a defensive battle I generally have them deployed to the front with supporting infantry slightly overlapping them in front or behind, or in a hedge-hog formation. On the attack I keep them tucked safely away behind other units until the main lines are engaged. I then rush them forward to get off a quick volley (particularly if an enemy unit has an exposed flank) and retreat them to reload. This is particularly effective out on the flanks where cavalry are engaged. I try to bait enemy cav to chase my CA who will run through a teppo unit in loose formation. When the CA have passed through the teppo, I have them close formation and fire. The CA will wheel around and charge and with another (or two) of my own cav charging from the flanks, it doesn't take long to rout that unit if they haven't already routed from musket fire at point-blank range

Muskets are very useful for attacking bridges, as well. Line them up (two lines instead of the standard three) on your side of the bank.....send infantry across to get enemy units to approach the bridge, and fire away. Yes, you get friendly fire this way but after your own unit(s) rout you get several volleys into the enemy rear as they retreat back to their positions. Often this is enough to get them to rout.

My favorite "bridge-buster" army (when I am using some of the fantasy units) consists of three or four musket, several kensei, and bfn. It's a lot of fun (as opposed to the dread one usually has when attacking a bridge) to watch

[Togakure]

I use teppos on the offensive also, but never more than two in an army. I'm not too concerned about the actually kills they get: their real value is the severe morale penalty they can inflict from a distance. At the right time against the right enemies, guns are one of the best chain rout tools in the bag.

[DEB8]

Hello,

Lots of good comments here re Bridge battles.

Re moving troops :

I have had this problem too, but not at bridges usually. I find the units sometimes seem to feel they should be elsewhere without good cause. Sometimes they attack without orders. Those that move elsewhere are usually as well spaced as the other units. Those that attack seem to have failed some kind of "test" and attack even though they were not shown as impetuous ( and it should be noted that any troops that ARE impetuous do not attack ).

Those attacking without orders are ( IMHO ) have clearly failed a "test" of some kind. Impetuous units probably have a greater chance of failing this test than non-impetuous units but results can vary. On the other hand, this problem and the other one ( title subject etc. ) may be down to the AI program trying to give itself some help in winning! I often find that the AI launches attacks on the flank opposite to that where the troops moved or attacked whilst I am re positioning my units etc. !

The Troop Movement problem also occurs when you line up your units too near to the edge of the map or the set up "disc", so you should take care here also.

Re Bridge battles :

I find the best way to fight is to encourage the enemy onto the Bridge and fight him there! Missile unit are placed to take advantage of this and should target those units joining the Melee rather than those in combat with your troops ( this cuts down self inflicted losses ). Note that the range of Teppo units is not much different than that of bows, so place them as bows. Encourage him on by attacking with Yari Ashigaru units, which will rout (!) and get him to follow. Then engage with Naginata ON the bridge. Support these with the same units as the AI throws in and when the enemy breaks send in the cavalry to persue and get as many units as possible over to support. If he attacks with Yari cavalry, counter it with Yari Samurai. Only use your General unit if things are not going well , and always after you have used your No-Dachi , Warrior Monks and/or Heavy Cavalry to stem the tide.

Allowing the enemy to cross a bridge before engaging can lose you the battle unless you can restrict it to one unit only; so it is NOT recommended. The enemy morale seems to rise if they can cross the river and ( it seems ), will eventually fall if they fail to cross.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Martok
You just highlighted what is -- for me, at least -- a key limitation on ashi teppo units: I only truly find them useful in defensive battles. When attacking, I almost never employ them at all. Their range is too short, and can be too easily flanked since I prefer to attack over more open terrain as a general rule.

The key to use teppos offensively is to set them in front of the melee line (yaris/nodachis/naginatas/wariormonks interspersed ie YS-WM-YS-WM-YS say) and when ready group them all and move them at once in running speed from where they stand to in range of the enemy. This means that the teppos will all together start to fire with the melee line behind them and also that most likely you'll take the first shot at the enemy teppos. This is often crucial because the advantage in men in teppo duels "mushrooms" quickly - a small initial difference may become large quickly.

If the enemy retreats, they'll take casualties and when out of range repeat.

If the enemy stays where they are just shoot them to pieces; teppos get backshots, that is any bullet that doesnt hit anything in continues until it does hit a man a tree or the ground, so melee troops behind the teppos may fall. This is why its best to have your melee troops some distance behind your teppo line while a missile duel goes on.

If the enemy moves his melee line or cavalry to engage your teppos, move your melee line at once and as a whole/grouped at walking speed (ordering charge the last few metres before engaging each unit individually) to meet them and try to time the engagement to take place in front of your teppo troops. In this way you maximise the distance the enemy has to run, the teppo casualties they'll take until they meet your melee line and also you tip the outnumbering morale penalties in your favor as the melee will take place closer to your army. In addition while the melee goes on, any kills the teppos make (they dont have to be many, even one may be enough) will put further morale penalties on the enemy melee troops and so your chances to win the main melee engagement are further increased (and yes teppos can make such kills while shooting right behind your engaged melee troops).

Once the enemy breaks, let the cavalry, no dachis, warrior monks and yari ashigaru loose, or better still just have some cavalry come at the rear by then; total massacre

edit1; its best to use the excellent grouping feeatures ie select units from cards or battlemap using control and mouse select and then group using control+shift+number and recall with control+number. You can have subgroups that are subgroups of a set group or subgroups that extend accross two set groups. The system is very flexible; usually can do say 1; missiles, 2; melee, 3;light horse, 4;heavy horse, 5;taisho(general). There's no need to set a group for all as you can always control+all and then g which selects and then groups all. During action the numbered groups can be used to split the all group appropriately. Also remember that grouped units will march in formation ie maintaining the initial distances. You can rotate with alt+rightclick point to where you want your unit/group to face.

edit2; aggressive use of teppo has less chances to succeed if the defender has sloping ground at his favor with equal number of missiles or simply more missiles. In such a case, the same maneuver should be used only now the attacker (you) should make the melee attack, while using the teppo as a screen for the melee troops until the latter can get close to the enemy ranks. Cavalry and melee balance of power between the armies also play a part; if the attacker has more cavalry the whole may be combined with a cavalry flanking maneuver or if having a melee superiority with an infantry flanking maneuver. Such maneuvers should aim to hit the enemy ranks simultaneously from two directions -ideally sandwich them- in order to maximise the flanking morale penalties to achieve rout and massacre. If it happens that the defender has equality-superiory in missiles, melee and cavalry either baite some units off in a skirmish to try and get an advantage or consider withdrawing.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Allowing the enemy to cross a bridge before engaging can lose you the battle unless you can restrict it to one unit only; so it is NOT recommended. The enemy morale seems to rise if they can cross the river and ( it seems ), will eventually fall if they fail to cross.

DEB8: good advice given but I cannot agree with the above statement.

My tactics in defending a bridge almost always encourage the enemy to cross en-masse. This maximizes the impact of morale reducing fire from my teppo as the enemy advances into my V or horseshoe-shaped formation. Enemy units will have to turn one way or the other and thereby expose the flanks or rear of their formation.

When enough units have crossed over the bridge, I can snap shut their escape route back across the bridge using fast-moving flank units, and destroy many units outright without having to chase. It's also the best way, IMHO, to entice the enemy taisho to cross the bridge to rally his faltering troops, thereby giving me a much better chance at killing him.

Any morale boost the enemy might receive for crossong the river (do they really get this or am I missing something?) is totally negated by flank or rear attacks.

Of course tactics may vary depending on whether it's early in a campaign when you can easily 'stuff' a crossing attempt right at the bridge, or later when you have more and varied units to work with.

Just my 2cents, of course.............................