Too expensive navy

[Skuda]

I recently installed EB Alexander hoping there would be more naval invasions. However I didn't see things really change comparing to vanilla EB. I decided that was maybe because of VERY expensive ships? In my first campaign for Romans after 10 or so years playing I noticed that Polemaioi was the only faction who use naval fleet.

So, I left Roman campaign for some time and started as Qart-Hadasht. Before that I'd slashed the upkeep cost for every EB ship type twice. Even now, only factions holding 10+ provinces could deploy ships and support a strong army. I thought that would do but there is stil not much activity on seas except for pirates...

[Skullheadhq]

Try lowering upkeep and see if it helps.

[John the Mad]

My own opinion is that as rome you don't need a starting fleet.The one fleet you start with is almost worthless and has a high upkeep.I just disband it.Then after taking Taras i build a penterkarot or whatever their called,then after taking Rhegium build another into the same fleet.That fleet is good enough to take on anything you'll need it to early in the game.I've only seen one instance where there was a fleet larger than one ship,early game,and i don't know if it was scripted or not but two Rebel fleets of 5 ships each showed up to blockade Romes port.Later on as you expand and provinces build up you can expand your initial fleet or start the groundwork for a one or two more.

Think of how you want to expand early and then decide on wether you want to be a sea power or a land power.Very few nations have had the luxury to be both because of the expense involved.A good way to get a jump on the first turn to having a strong early navy is to disband the initial ship,both of your equites,and not retrain your soldiers for armor/attack upgrade.Then you can afford to build three penterkarot at Capau(for the armor/attack upgrade) and still have around the same or maybe a slightly lower overall military upkeep cost then at the start.The effect on your army of disbanding the two equites,and forgoing the upgrades is minimal too since you are mainly going to be involved in sieges at first.If you feel you need a cavalry unit then just train a campainian one in rome.It is initially more expensive but lower to mantain and will also start off with the upgrades.If going this route then once you take Taras and Rhegium then you should have a nice little five ship navy going which isn't a bad early start.

[DaciaJC]

I believe Skuda is more concerned about other factions building navies, not himself.

[Maion Maroneios]

The Ptolemaioi seem to be the ones to use the most powerful fleet in my campaign as well. I've seen a couple of Nees Megistai (Huge Poliremes), which made me piss my pants. Apart from them, the Karchedoi and Romaioi are also quite active.

Maion

[Raiuga]

Not every coastal town can build naval ports for ships building (so I think). this may contribute to the lack of navies on EB (huge I mean). Still Carthage is still very sea active (BI.exe).

I saw a map that shows that Attike doesn't have the "navyport" resource (or whatever you call it) that enables the construction of trireme and bigger ships. Is this true? I never played to much to verify this

correct me if I'm wrong

[Apraxiteles]

I've found that one can "encourage" AI factions to build ships by blockading their ports. The economic incentive to have some sea trade must outweigh the concern over the cost of ships, I guess. I once got into a naval arms race with the Romans as Carthage. I would blockade their ports, they would train ships and destroy them, then I would train better ships to counter them, and then they would do the same. Huge fleets of Quinremes sailing all over the place. It was utter chaos.

[John the Mad]

I believe Skuda is more concerned about other factions building navies, not himself.

Oops,You're right!

Thats why i shouldn't read anything before the shock treatments.

Well sorry for the useless post then.

[miotas]

Playing as Rome on BI.exe Carthage keeps trying to invade sicily every 5 years or so.

[John the Mad]

Yep.

i have BI also and the AI ain't afraid of Amphibious invasions.

Though i do remember that in the initial RTW release the AI would just spam out uber fleets for the factions under its control and from reading the CA forums there were alot of complaints about it.

So maybe this isn't so much an expense issue but an overcorrection one as CA is wont to do.

[Cute Wolf]

Well, actually without cutting their upkeep, I still got some painful naval carried invasion. That's true, in ancient times, the navy was more like today's airforce... the most exspensive branch, and only a few wealthy factions could afford them... That's realistic...

[John the Mad]

Well, actually without cutting their upkeep, I still got some painful naval carried invasion. That's true, in ancient times, the navy was more like today's airforce... the most exspensive branch, and only a few wealthy factions could afford them... That's realistic...

And their effect is more transitory.A navy or airforce cannot take ground,hold it,or break the enemies will to fight.What both branches give is a window of oppurtionity for your ground forces to exploit.

In EB,as in real life,you have to act fast to exploit the advantage given by a strong navy.

For more modern day examples one only need to refer to Pelieulu or the first day of the Normandy landings.Tarawa also comes to mind.

[Companion Cavalry]

I've run into a few full-stack navies owned by Casse around the late 150's b.c.

[Cute Wolf]

I've run into a few full-stack navies owned by Casse around the late 150's b.c.

And their fullstack navyt can be "ridiculously" defeated with 3 or four Civilized ships, even in autoresolve... Casse seems to get filthy rich... for no reasons...

[athanaric]

And their fullstack navyt can be "ridiculously" defeated with 3 or four Civilized ships, even in autoresolve... Casse seems to get filthy rich... for no reasons...

Casse get rich for some obvious reasons:

1. money script
2. no enemies
2. sea trade with Aedui and Swêboz
4. great wealth of tradeable goods, especially tin. The gold and silver mines in Cruddain and Cymru (don't remember the actual name) don't hurt either.


Regarding the strength of the ships:

Generally, Celtic ships are better than those of the other Barbarians. Ship strength goes like this (from strong to ridiculous):

Hellenes/Qarthadastim/Romani -> other "civilized" factions -> Gauls -> Casse -> other "Barbarians" -> Eleutheroi -> Nomads.

[Cute Wolf]

Well, according to that, yo'll understand that navy has more of Show-Up things in this time compared for today... as if some country had massive fleet of poliremes, in today's equivalent is several aircraft carriers at your exspense...

[Maion Maroneios]

"Hellenes/Qarthadastim/Romani -> other "civilized" factions -> Gauls -> Casse -> other "Barbarians" -> Eleutheroi -> Nomads."

Erhm... Does any nation build ships that are better than Huge Poliremes? But I agree Quinquiremes and Poeni counterparts are good. Please give me some insight

Maion

[Cute Wolf]

"Hellenes/Qarthadastim/Romani -> other "civilized" factions -> Gauls -> Casse -> other "Barbarians" -> Eleutheroi -> Nomads."

Erhm... Does any nation build ships that are better than Huge Poliremes? But I agree Quinquiremes and Poeni counterparts are good. Please give me some insight

Maion

Poliremes = Aircraft carriers in EB times... Only some high tech country had... but some with Poeni Quingiremes are equivalent with undetectable submarine that scares superpowers

[Maion Maroneios]

Still, Hellenic factions have Tetrereis and Pentereis as well. So they don't lack in that field. What I want to know, is if any other faciton except Successors can build ships lige the Huge Poliremes.

Maion

[Apraxiteles]

Epeiros can also build Poliremes. The KH and Baktria say that they can, but don't seem to have any graphics for them. Hellenic and Hellenistic factions, as well as Pontos, Hayasdan, and the Saba can build Pentereis, which are roughly equivalent to Quinremes. I find these ships more usefull anyway. Their attack power is nearly on par with Poliremes, and for the same upkeep cost, you can afford to support twice as many. They do fall behind Poliremes in defense though. But with twice as many, they seem much more economical.

[Maion Maroneios]

So they can't? I was talking about non-Hellenic factions, so this basically confirms that. Not that I care, Huge Poliremes were after all not really used for warfare rather than a show of power by the Hellenistic King to whom the huge warships belonged.

Maion

[lionhard]

Playing as Rome on BI.exe Carthage keeps trying to invade sicily every 5 years or so.

This also happends on alex. can i ask which is best between bi and alex with EB?

[athanaric]

So they can't? I was talking about non-Hellenic factions, so this basically confirms that. Not that I care, Huge Poliremes were after all not really used for warfare rather than a show of power by the Hellenistic King to whom the huge warships belonged.

Maion

You may be right in that the AS, Ptolemaioi, Makedonia, Epeiros and KH (not sure about Baktria) are the most powerful factions navy-wise. After all, they also get Trieremiolai, which are a very cost-effective, but still powerful, choice for your fleet. Romani and Qarthadastim lack Nees Megistai and the aforementioned Trieremiolai, but they do have some other nifty ship types.

[miotas]

So they can't? I was talking about non-Hellenic factions, so this basically confirms that. Not that I care, Huge Poliremes were after all not really used for warfare rather than a show of power by the Hellenistic King to whom the huge warships belonged.

Maion

I'm not sure if it was just a fluke accident, but my experience would seem to support this. Playing as Makedonia I built the biggest ship possible and intended to just have it sit in pella's port and act as a show of power and a money well for my immensly wealthy nation, but not long after I built it pirates turned up and blockaded pella, so since the huge polireme was the only ship that could get there in a single turn I ordered it to attack and despite huge odds in it's favour it sunk.

I never built another huge polireme and just stuck to large navy's of those trieremiolai

[Maion Maroneios]

I never said those monsters were very powerful. They weren't rammers like lighter ships AFAIK, instead they were able to man massive numbers of marines and many bolt and stone throwers. And though your example doesn't necessarily prove something, I would consider it historical if the enemy pirate fleet was of considerable numbers. Queen Teuta of the Illyrians has been known of developing remarkable tactics with light pirate ships, including binding 4-5 ships together to form a block that manned more men (summed up) than the average Pentere, resulting in many enemy ships that were large and slow to be captured.

To cut a long story short, a wise naval commander of antiquity always had a navy of ships with mixed weights. Including Poliremes (which isn't a single type of ships BTW, rather than a representation of ships larger than 5'ers or 6'ers) only in your campaign would be like asking for them to be sunk.

Maion

[Chris1959]

Miotas I find that when you attack with a navy there is a good chance you can loose even when the odds are in your favour, paradoxically when you defend I've had countless heroic victories with heavy ships when defending a very long odds!