Some terrorists bomb My Country!

[Jolt]

Well, personally, many countries shouldn't exist if the diffrences are present, or they were originally an occupation force... I don't hate US, but they actually "stole" those land from native Americans with treacherous pacts, for example, and North Ireland in UK is really the same thing.

True. At least half of it is. The US shouldn't really exist, or should at the very least be confined to its original boundaries in my opinion. They are a special case, however, given the fact that they have basically wiped out the native ethnicities and their country wasn't made up by an higher and lower peoples (And you said yourself in your post about East Timor), but since that is well in the past, as much as it pains me to nod, I accept their presence as a single sovereign entity. History is very important, because it means the cultures are gone and cannot be retrieved and enforced upon the majority of the present population. Such is the case of the USA, unlike Indonesia.

I would apply such an opinion on a myriad of countries. Spain castillianizes Galicians, Basques and Catalunians, therefore I am in favor of the independence of those countries. England did the same to Welsh and Scottish, therefore I am in favor of the independence of those countries. North Ireland is reportedly mostly inhabitted by Scottish, so a condominium between Scotland and Ireland would be a possible solution, in my point of view. France successfully did it to Occitans, Bretons and Burgundians (History again), therefore I accept that France remains with its current continental boundaries (Corsica shouldn't remain French, however.) India should desintegrate into a myriad of states, as should Pakistan (Baluchistan and Punjab/Khalistan pops up to my mind as the most blatant cases), China should lose most of its external territory (Xinjiang, Tibet, Inner Mongolia), it should not however, lose for instance Manchuria (Manchu culture), Yunnan (Ancient Di and other non-Han tribes which were assimilated), and finally, Guizhou, Hunan, Jiangxi, Fujian, Guangzhou Huainan and Guangxi, which were territories which originally were home to many non-Han ethnicities, gradually assimilated into the Chinese (Han) ethnicity, recognized by the old Chinese emperors as barbarians. Since this cultures have large and by been absorbed in the course of history, and their distinct culture lost, I can accept that they are legitimatly part of the country they belong to. Africa would be a very special case. Since many people of the same ethnicities have already have seperate histories by being part of different colonies, the whole of Africa would need to be re-drawed, by ethnical groups, divided by the colonial boundaries (As people from the same ethnicity in different ex-colonies speak different languages, and that might lead to conflict in a unitary state (See Belgium about language conflictuality). Well, you get my point about countries which are legitimate or not in my eyes.

And those [snip... hehehe...] east timor, are the best example on how a lesser people's

Just to note that ever since I read "lesser people", I rejoiced at the fact that East-Timor is independent.

will can be bent by several foreign interests. Actually, the invisible hands in east timor affair wasn't any country or humanitarian organization... it was [snip... hehehe...] multinational company that only interested in exploiting oil and gas reserve at the Timor sea. They do the same in Papua (not PNG, correction for you) and Aceh.

However true that may be, the fact is that multinationals don't force an authoritarian Indonesian government to make a refenrendum. Other countries do. That's why you don't see Xanana Gusmão or (Insert random rebel leader here) travelling abroad to meet multinational companies CEO's. They travel to meet world leaders.

Well, if u look at the timor lestenese conitions now, they are more [snip... hehehe...], [snip... hehehe...], and [snip... hehehe...] compared from the times they are still under Indonesian control. Portugal are just try to exploit the chaos in Indonesian government that time, and sadly their [snip... hehehe...] tactics are prevailed...

I'm pretty sure you can say that to the tens of thousands that died during the Indonesian invasion (Which was the classical "We are invading simply because we want to." reason), as well as the tens of thousands of victims of Indonesian repression, as well as to the victims of this incident.

As a matter of fact I have two Timorense college professors here in my college residence, they are here learning Portuguese. Since I enquired into their histories in Timor-occupied, they had to go study to Indonesian colleges (nothing wrong here), and one of them took 10 (!) years to take a simple degree because he got flunked by the professors, who did so because he was a Timorense (As you said, one of those "lesser people"), who apparently according to Indonesian professors didn't deserve a college degree.

EDIT: About Portugal, that's funny. I study International Relations, so I know what I'm talking about. Portugal should recieve the Nobel Prize for Peace. It's not everyday that you see a national boicott of Indonesian products, massive popular demonstrations of support for Timor, and a country which truly acted out of pure kindness to a foreign people in the International Arena.

Well, every country has its own "claimed area" and that will goes almost against any humanitarian principles. But with that, maybe Megas Alexandros will be arrested for Invading Persia, and England should have a heavy sanction for annexing wales and scotlands... well, If a race or Area in your own country try to separate themself (the very same as Rebellions in TW ), did your country only let them go, and not sending armed forces to quell them?

Eng... you should learn from that perspective.... that's all, thank you.

Ok, then I'm pretty sure you view the German invasions throughout Europe, as well as the Japanese invasion of China and Indonesia with good eyes.

[Centurion1]

Alright, I'll play your game, even though it's got nothing to do with my point, which you still haven't figured out, even though others have repeated it multiple times now:

Moldova: Civil conflict, separatist movement.
Vatican City, Andorra, San Marino, Puerto Rica, Barbados, Grenada, St. Lucia, Bahamas, St. Vincent, Palau, Solomon Islands, Micronesia and Marshall Islands: none of these are real countries(and I believe several of them were part of Bush' "coalition of the willing").
Madagascar: Civil conflict, military coup.
Morocco: (Semi)Civil conflict/violent occupation, separatist movement(west sahara).
Qatar and Bahrain: None since the Gulf war.
Armenia: Withdrew from iraq in octobre 2008, still in Kosovo.
Thailand: You've got to be kidding me, they've been at war with insurgents for the last 5 years. Now they've also managed to fight with Cambodia over some temple.

Vatican City, Andorra, San Marino, Puerto Rica, Barbados, Grenada, St. Lucia, Bahamas, St. Vincent, Palau, Solomon Islands, Micronesia and Marshall Islands: none of these are real countries(and I believe several of them were part of Bush' "coalition of the willing").

Just because they are small doesn't mean they are not real countries. and this is a stupid atguement. you can't judge an entire group of people by their government. Otherwise then all Iranians would be raving lunatics, or all Burmans, or all North Koreans (well not sure about that, they did invent brainwashing. Just think about that......

sorry husar

Oh and the fact that Humans even have a concept of peace implies a reluctance to war. We are superior to animals because of our intellect that allows us to make decisions that do not have to be natural.


Oh and jolt do you really think that Wales and Scotland want to leave the Uk. I am sure there are separatists but the Scots aren't exactly laying down blood feuds with every Englishman they ind anymore. What i am trying to say is i think they are rather assimiltaed (but maybe i am wrong, i don't live there.)

no you cant say that America should have been its natural borders because there were Indians there too. Oh and what about Canada. and shouldn't austrailia be given back to the aborigines.... What i say is we stop worrying about the past injustices and start worrying about what is happening NOW. Indians are less than one percent of the American population so that idea is impossible. Plus, Americans have done a lot of good things so stop focusing on all the bad stuff.

[Jolt]

Oh and jolt do you really think that Wales and Scotland want to leave the Uk. I am sure there are separatists but the Scots aren't exactly laying down blood feuds with every Englishman they ind anymore. What i am trying to say is i think they are rather assimiltaed (but maybe i am wrong, i don't live there.)

Fact is that their language and culture still exists. And noone said they want to leave the UK. I am theorizing over which countries are or are not legitimate to me.

no you cant say that America should have been its natural borders because there were Indians there too. Oh and what about Canada. and shouldn't austrailia be given back to the aborigines.... What i say is we stop worrying about the past injustices and start worrying about what is happening NOW. Indians are less than one percent of the American population so that idea is impossible. Plus, Americans have done a lot of good things so stop focusing on all the bad stuff.

By the time the US was formed as a sovereign entity, in the 13th colonies, if there was any sizeable number of indians, I believe, the British colonists far surpassed the number of Indians. That, coupled with this: "History is very important, because it means the cultures are gone and cannot be retrieved and enforced upon the majority of the present population." I wrote in my last post, explains the situation. About Australia, the aborigine culture is also practically extinct. Therefore I can accept Australia as it is. About the bad stuff, I'm not talking about any specific bad stuff. Only explaining why I consider the USA a viable legitimate country. I'm pretty sure Germany did many good things as well, so let's prohibit everyone from talking about WW2, shall we?

[HoreTore]

Oh and jolt do you really think that Wales and Scotland want to leave the Uk.

Uhm................

Yes they do? Haven't been paying much attention to the scottish nationalist issue, have you?

Just because they are small doesn't mean they are not real countries.

Size matters.

[Husar]

Size matters.

So you support huge corporations?

You can say that some people like conflict, but war is a different matter and your point that all people love war is quite wrong.

qed

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Uhm................

Yes they do? Haven't been paying much attention to the scottish nationalist issue, have you?

Tyrrany of the minority, especially in Wales. There the Demographic is roughly:

600,000 Welsh.

2,200,000 Anglo-Welsh

200,000 English

Of those, about 2,000,000 overall wanted neither independance nor, supposedly, an assembly. However, all the Welsh voted for one and they got it. As I said, a noisy minority.

Fact is that their language and culture still exists. And noone said they want to leave the UK. I am theorizing over which countries are or are not legitimate to me.

Debatable, Welsh and Scots-Gailic are minority languages, and many of the cultural features are Victorian, Druidism for example.

Note: Both the Queen and the current Archbishop of Canterbury are Druids.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Uhm................

Yes they do? Haven't been paying much attention to the scottish nationalist issue, have you?

The majority of the Scottish people still favour remaining in the UK, however most do want some more devolution. National identities are quite complicated here, don't believe the tartan & shortbread history we make up to attract tourists, it's not representative at all of the reality, national identity is quite complicated here.

EDIT: Also, Scotland was not annexed or assimilated as has been suggested here...

Debatable, Welsh and Scots-Gailic are minority languages, and many of the cultural features are Victorian, Druidism for example.

Note: Both the Queen and the current Archbishop of Canterbury are Druids.

And historically at least, most of the lowland Scots would identify much more readily with England than with the Irish (which we used to use to refer to the Highlanders).

Also, you got some info on the Queen/Archbishop being druids, I am intrigued...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The majority of the Scottish people still favour remaining in the UK, however most do want some more devolution. National identities are quite complicated here, don't believe the tartan & shortbread history we make up to attract tourists, it's not representative at all of the reality, national identity is quite complicated here.

EDIT: Also, Scotland was not annexed or assimilated as has been suggested here...

Quite correct, England was annexed by Scotland. A very impressive dynastic feat, that. It's also worth pointing out that English national identity, though rarely articulated, is just as complex and fractured, cutting across as many regional and ethnic/cultural borders.

And historically at least, most of the lowland Scots would identify much more readily with England than with the Irish (which we used to use to refer to the Highlanders).

Also, you got some info on the Queen/Archbishop being druids, I am intrigued...

Not baby-killing Druids, social Druids. They organsie the Estevodd, the (frankly quite recent) nationalistic Welsh culture festival. Obviously, Rowan Willians is not a member of a Pagan religion.

[HoreTore]

Philipvs and Rhyfelwyr, I wasn't saying that the majority of scots wanted independence, I was simply pointing out that there is talk about secession... And it was aimed primarily at the Scots...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Philipvs and Rhyfelwyr, I wasn't saying that the majority of scots wanted independence, I was simply pointing out that there is talk about secession... And it was aimed primarily at the Scots...

I think it's just so much wind from Alice Salmon.

[Cute Wolf]

True. At least half of it is. The US shouldn't really exist, or should at the very least be confined to its original boundaries in my opinion. They are a special case, however, given the fact that they have basically wiped out the native ethnicities and their country wasn't made up by an higher and lower peoples (And you said yourself in your post about East Timor), but since that is well in the past, as much as it pains me to nod, I accept their presence as a single sovereign entity. History is very important, because it means the cultures are gone and cannot be retrieved and enforced upon the majority of the present population. Such is the case of the USA, unlike Indonesia.

I would apply such an opinion on a myriad of countries. Spain castillianizes Galicians, Basques and Catalunians, therefore I am in favor of the independence of those countries. England did the same to Welsh and Scottish, therefore I am in favor of the independence of those countries. North Ireland is reportedly mostly inhabitted by Scottish, so a condominium between Scotland and Ireland would be a possible solution, in my point of view. France successfully did it to Occitans, Bretons and Burgundians (History again), therefore I accept that France remains with its current continental boundaries (Corsica shouldn't remain French, however.) India should desintegrate into a myriad of states, as should Pakistan (Baluchistan and Punjab/Khalistan pops up to my mind as the most blatant cases), China should lose most of its external territory (Xinjiang, Tibet, Inner Mongolia), it should not however, lose for instance Manchuria (Manchu culture), Yunnan (Ancient Di and other non-Han tribes which were assimilated), and finally, Guizhou, Hunan, Jiangxi, Fujian, Guangzhou Huainan and Guangxi, which were territories which originally were home to many non-Han ethnicities, gradually assimilated into the Chinese (Han) ethnicity, recognized by the old Chinese emperors as barbarians. Since this cultures have large and by been absorbed in the course of history, and their distinct culture lost, I can accept that they are legitimatly part of the country they belong to. Africa would be a very special case. Since many people of the same ethnicities have already have seperate histories by being part of different colonies, the whole of Africa would need to be re-drawed, by ethnical groups, divided by the colonial boundaries (As people from the same ethnicity in different ex-colonies speak different languages, and that might lead to conflict in a unitary state (See Belgium about language conflictuality). Well, you get my point about countries which are legitimate or not in my eyes.

Just to note that ever since I read "lesser people", I rejoiced at the fact that East-Timor is independent.

However true that may be, the fact is that multinationals don't force an authoritarian Indonesian government to make a refenrendum. Other countries do. That's why you don't see Xanana Gusmão or (Insert random rebel leader here) travelling abroad to meet multinational companies CEO's. They travel to meet world leaders.

I'm pretty sure you can say that to the tens of thousands that died during the Indonesian invasion (Which was the classical "We are invading simply because we want to." reason), as well as the tens of thousands of victims of Indonesian repression, as well as to the victims of this incident.

Well, history is history, past is the past... no matter how long it is.... "Well, at least I was happy when I become a conscript and sent there to shot some of their heads and torture them... they are simply not humans." is NEVER an argument when some "larger" countries decide to "invade" smaller countries. Providing you play TW games much (afterall this forum is TW....) you know that in the history, IF the "freedom" for all is applied, today's wolrd will become an anarchy ruins of everyday riotting people. As bad or as good as they could be used... Power gives order. Just look at today your "timor leste", as they are become poorer and poorer everyday. And they become further infractioned, as most of their former "allies and friends" become bitter rivals in politics. Everyday, a corpse lied in the roads was common occurence in Timor leste... as much of the people now regrets their separation from Indonesia. Much of their refugees in the East Nusatenggara Province now decide to become Indonesian citizens once again, because they said that living here now..... is hell (Citation: I did have an article to said that, but it was written in Indonesian, and in my newspapper (KOMPAS))

And who says that multinational corporations ain't behind this carnage? just look at who gets the best guards and hire many PMC's in timor leste... Australian, British, and American oil gas and natural resources company. Even they have power to shoot timor leste's police and didn't get any punishment "they just say accident"

As a matter of fact I have two Timorense college professors here in my college residence, they are here learning Portuguese. Since I enquired into their histories in Timor-occupied, they had to go study to Indonesian colleges (nothing wrong here), and one of them took 10 (!) years to take a simple degree because he got flunked by the professors, who did so because he was a Timorense (As you said, one of those "lesser people"), who apparently according to Indonesian professors didn't deserve a college degree.

EDIT: About Portugal, that's funny. I study International Relations, so I know what I'm talking about. Portugal should recieve the Nobel Prize for Peace. It's not everyday that you see a national boicott of Indonesian products, massive popular demonstrations of support for Timor, and a country which truly acted out of pure kindness to a foreign people in the International Arena.

Ok, then I'm pretty sure you view the German invasions throughout Europe, as well as the Japanese invasion of China and Indonesia with good eyes.

Well, I was an assistant professor in my collage, and I was tasked to give some exams and homework on Inorganic chemistry, and I know that several of my fellow assistant friends depiss some junior students because of their religious or racial backgrounds. Pretty much true, some Papuan students got a bad mark they shouldn't get because some "muslim" assistants never give "christians" more than 60% (usually much less). But at least I doing my Job Professionally and give them good marks they deserve (not because they are christian like me, but everyone deserve 90% is got 90% from me). Discrimination exists everywhere! And yes, while some "unproffesional flunkers" lied in university, most of the Lecturers and assistants are good and honest, and never flunk their students or juniors.

Oh, and the bolded sentence means that I dislike that. Initially japanesse said that they want to liberate asian countries from european colonization, and history is history, without that disaster happened, much, I said much, countries in east and southeast asia never had their european influence lessened. Well, the german invasion is a really diffrent case, as the WW2 is more kind of Revenge in Nazi's point of view, but their result is complete fail nonetheless...

And If u play RTW, or EB, or BI... or anything "historical" TW mods... You did learn that "the strong eats the weak" and with that, history is shaped. But respect other's territory, and didn';t meddle in another's "inner problems" was a good start to maintain peaceful relationships. Indonesia is much like US, they are both "De facto and De Jure" country, with certain identity, and pastime "naughty invasions". But the first step towards more friendly relationships is honour each other. Most Indonesians aren't unreasonable flunkers, just ask Obama.... he spent his child time in Jakarta, Indonesia, and he didn't get any discrimination.

[Jolt]

Well, history is history, past is the past... no matter how long it is.... "Well, at least I was happy when I become a conscript and sent there to shot some of their heads and torture them... they are simply not humans." is NEVER an argument when some "larger" countries decide to "invade" smaller countries. Providing you play TW games much (afterall this forum is TW....) you know that in the history, IF the "freedom" for all is applied, today's wolrd will become an anarchy ruins of everyday riotting people.

In ther International Law, like you said, there is a principle which was created in 1648 (!), which is three-fold:

1. The principle of the sovereignty of states and the fundamental right of political self determination
2. The principle of (legal) equality between states
3. The principle of non-intervention of one state in the internal affairs of another state

As such, Indonesia had no right whatsoever to invade Timor-Leste, which was a completely seperate and legitimate sovereign state with no connections to Indonesia. As such, every state is theorically free from one another. And there is freedom for all in many countries. And you don't see them rioting everyday. So long as there is responsible governance by the ruling class (THAT is the problem, not multinational companies), then one can value freedom in a country without riotting.

As bad or as good as they could be used... Power gives order. Just look at today your "timor leste", as they are become poorer and poorer everyday. And they become further infractioned, as most of their former "allies and friends" become bitter rivals in politics. Everyday, a corpse lied in the roads was common occurence in Timor leste... as much of the people now regrets their separation from Indonesia. Much of their refugees in the East Nusatenggara Province now decide to become Indonesian citizens once again, because they said that living here now..... is hell (Citation: I did have an article to said that, but it was written in Indonesian, and in my newspapper (KOMPAS))

Power gives order through oppression and fear. Like in many countries coming out of totalitarian regimes, its people come with a collective state of mind where they want to expel all the rage and anger they stocked up while under the oppressive regime. That is why after most totalitarian regimes, there is always a period of several years of anarchy. Portugal was no exception to this rule. Once East Timor straightens its structural problems usual to a new-born state, it should begin to gain a gigantic influx of wealth through its exports of oil, and that alone can make a substantial of their part of their revenue in the future.

Oh and I know about all that. I know that there are still many Indonesian partizans in Timor, and that these continue to murder and loot and rape until this very day. Some days ago, I just read a news that a pro-Indonesian Timorese group had raped and killed 5 women in the outskirts of Dili. It isn't just the assassinations and agitation to intimidate the population into voting for continued existence inside Indonesia when the referendum happened. No, it continues to this very day.

Another problem is the economic neglect that Timor Leste suffered both during Portuguese administration (Heck, they were a colony, so we were legitimatly exploiting them) and during Indonesian administration (They were supposedly an integral part of your country, yet they were still economically neglected, and if you have a constitution, I'd bet it says somewhere in the first chapters that Indonesia is a unitary state, whose duty is to improve the life of all its citizens. You were definetly not accomplishing that.), which has only increased the problems and workload of the Timorense government today. If you ask me, would I be a citizen of:

a) a country whose citizens willingly call me a "lesser person", where I am educationally discriminated based on my ethnicity and where the lands I lived in were oppressed, subject to constant murders and repression, as well as the general lack of economic advancement
OR
b) a country which is ruled by my own kin, which despite all the gigantic structural problems it faces, actually attempts to improve the social, economic and political life (However difficult that may be) of all Timorense

Which one do you think, I would choose?

And who says that multinational corporations ain't behind this carnage? just look at who gets the best guards and hire many PMC's in timor leste... Australian, British, and American oil gas and natural resources company. Even they have power to shoot timor leste's police and didn't get any punishment "they just say accident"

What do the multinational corporations gain by this? I'm sure they all wanted Indonesia out so they could have a new sovereign body willing to sign contracts with them, but what do they gain with sustaining the anarchy? (You are implying that they take active action in promoting violence and destruction in the country)

Well, I was an assistant professor in my collage, and I was tasked to give some exams and homework on Inorganic chemistry, and I know that several of my fellow assistant friends depiss some junior students because of their religious or racial backgrounds. Pretty much true, some Papuan students got a bad mark they shouldn't get because some "muslim" assistants never give "christians" more than 60% (usually much less). But at least I doing my Job Professionally and give them good marks they deserve (not because they are christian like me, but everyone deserve 90% is got 90% from me). Discrimination exists everywhere! And yes, while some "unproffesional flunkers" lied in university, most of the Lecturers and assistants are good and honest, and never flunk their students or juniors.

Discrimination based on ethnicities? How I pity such people. People who have lives to live and have to get stuck perpetually on an educational system partly based on discrimination people through their religious or ethnical background. See? Primary example why Indonesia is an artificial country.

Oh, and the bolded sentence means that I dislike that. Initially japanesse said that they want to liberate asian countries from european colonization, and history is history, without that disaster happened, much, I said much, countries in east and southeast asia never had their european influence lessened. Well, the german invasion is a really diffrent case, as the WW2 is more kind of Revenge in Nazi's point of view, but their result is complete fail nonetheless...

Made that statement as a response to your sentence "Eng... you should learn from that perspective"

Which basically says, that you support invasions of people the invading powers consider "lesser people" and "Part of their claim area". So Japan considered Indonesia part of their claim area, and according to your hypothesis, they have every single right to invade your country and treat you like cattle.

And If u play RTW, or EB, or BI... or anything "historical" TW mods... You did learn that "the strong eats the weak" and with that, history is shaped. But respect other's territory, and didn';t meddle in another's "inner problems" was a good start to maintain peaceful relationships. Indonesia is much like US, they are both "De facto and De Jure" country, with certain identity, and pastime "naughty invasions". But the first step towards more friendly relationships is honour each other. Most Indonesians aren't unreasonable flunkers, just ask Obama.... he spent his child time in Jakarta, Indonesia, and he didn't get any discrimination.

We have reached a time where the "strong eats the weak" is no longer that linear and when a country is breaking international laws to "eat the weaker", it should not complain if another stronger country comes to eat it (Exactly like Japan did.). The rules are to be followed by everyone. If you break a rule with one country, you are breaking the rules with the entire world.