Traismene and Cannae

[Samurai Waki]

The Romans were a determined lot, thats for sure. Those numbers could also have been exaggerated, as was common in the day, but even so if it were 20,000 men, its nothing to shrug off, thats still a lot of men!

Perhaps, it was felt within Roman Society, we will probably never know for sure, seeing as there are few articles left available to really know how the Average Roman Citizen felt. I'm guessing they felt something, maybe more along the lines of searing hate, as the Romans had, after conquering Carthage, they burned it all to the ground, and salted the earth so nothing new could grow. It may be taken, that the Senate wanted to make sure that after Carthage was dead, it would stay that way for good. Primal fear

After that the Romans really became ruthless when dealing with an enemy, as you could also say that after having dealt with the Getai they killed, burned, pillaged, and ransacked anything in their way.

hence the quote "They [Romans] had created a desolation, and called it peace."

[John the Mad]

The Romans were a determined lot, thats for sure. Those numbers could also have been exaggerated, as was common in the day, but even so if it were 20,000 men, its nothing to shrug off, thats still a lot of men!

Perhaps, it was felt within Roman Society, we will probably never know for sure, seeing as there are few articles left available to really know how the Average Roman Citizen felt. I'm guessing they felt something, maybe more along the lines of searing hate, as the Romans had, after conquering Carthage, they burned it all to the ground, and salted the earth so nothing new could grow. It may be taken, that the Senate wanted to make sure that after Carthage was dead, it would stay that way for good. Primal fear

After that the Romans really became ruthless when dealing with an enemy, as you could also say that after having dealt with the Getai they killed, burned, pillaged, and ransacked anything in their way.

hence the quote "They [Romans] had created a desolation, and called it peace."

The roman armies after Trasimene and Cannae would have had to be made up entirely of old men and young boys by reading Livy.

No way a society,no matter how warlike,losses 100,000 men not only in the prime of their lives,but also representing the entire middle class and goes "oh well" lets call up the young boys and old men and free all the slaves..without their society being turned upside down.

[Samurai Waki]

The roman armies after Trasimene and Cannae would have had to be made up entirely of old men and young boys by reading Livy.

No way a society,no matter how warlike,losses 100,000 men not only in the prime of their lives,but also representing the entire middle class and goes "oh well" lets call up the young boys and old men and free all the slaves..without their society being turned upside down.

Thats what I was trying to get at. The "not being sure how the Romans felt" was more akin to how the French, and Allied Armies felt about war after WWI. The French lost a massive portion of their military aged population (out of 7,500,000 Mobilized 5,651,000 were either killed or wounded... almost 75% of their effective fighting force) I'm sure, had it been up to them, would have done much the same as the Romans did, if they could've gotten away with it, and later on regretted not having done so.

[Centurion1]

As a whole the modern cultures of the world cannot understand the real social nature of ancients such as the Romans. The numbers were more than likely inflated. The huge chunk of their population that died probably helped foster some sort of social reform.

[Samurai Waki]

As a whole the modern cultures of the world cannot understand the real social nature of ancients such as the Romans. The numbers were more than likely inflated. The huge chunk of their population that died probably helped foster some sort of social reform.

People haven't changed much since the beginning, if you read Cicero you find out that most people of the time harbored many of the same fears, prejudices, and dreams that people today have. We continue to inflate (or in some cases deflate) the number of casualties caused by war, and during the 2nd Punic War, there weren't any recorded major social reforms going on with the Romans, who were much too preoccupied with making sure Carthage would be destroyed.

[Centurion1]

What i mean is that by really opening the military up to lower class citizens (not just relegating to velite status), they were setting the stage for reform.

And i have read ciceros oration against cataline. The difference in culture isn't the problems, those will probably never change, it is the way the people dealt with those problems

[KrooK]

When people want fight, loses are not important. During whole 2nd Punic war 50% of men who could carry on weapon died. It did not stop Romans from conquering Macedonia just after war with Cartage was finished.
Remember that into Roman society practically all the men able to carry on weapon could fight. I don't know how many their lost during whole war - lets tell 500.000. In Rome it means that .... they still have 500.000 potencial soldiers.
Simplicity of that men was their strenght. Its not mistake that Roman Republic is being called "republic of peasants - soldiers".

[Beirut]

People haven't changed much since the beginning, if you read Cicero you find out that most people of the time harbored many of the same fears, prejudices, and dreams that people today have.

H.G. Wells, in his Outline of History, has a wonderful quote to that effect. Couldn't find it the last time a cruised the book. I'll try again.

[rotorgun]

The closest modern equivalent I can imagine was how the Soviet government managed to survive defeat after defeat during the early years of the German invasion. They suffered over a million casualties to the army alone in 1941. The very Gates of Moscow were within sight of the enemy. No other modern state could have withstood such a pounding and not packed it in. The stoicism of the communist regime under Stalin is reminiscent of how the Romans behaved once they recovered from the shock of Cannae. I believe that Hannibal should have listened to Maharbal when he said, "Truly the Gods have not bestowed all things upon the same person. Thou knowest indeed, Hannibal, how to conquer, but thou knowest not how to make use of your victory." . Despite what many historians say about the difficulty Hannibal would have had besieging Rome, I believe that a strong show of force by the Carthaginian Army at the gates of Rome would have won Hannibal a great diplomatic edge. As it was, his delay allowed the Romans to gather strength and regroup morally.

Alexander would have never stopped to allow such a thing.

[Megas Methuselah]

Perhaps, it was felt within Roman Society, we will probably never know for sure, seeing as there are few articles left available to really know how the Average Roman Citizen felt. I'm guessing they felt something, maybe more along the lines of searing hate, as the Romans had, after conquering Carthage, they burned it all to the ground, and salted the earth so nothing new could grow. It may be taken, that the Senate wanted to make sure that after Carthage was dead, it would stay that way for good. Primal fear

IIRC, I believe public mourning was banned for a while in Rome after Cannae. That should give us some idea of the situation.