Pursuit of happiness

[The Stranger]

The pursuit of happiness is artificial. It is not the origin of men's struggle to survive and will never will be. It is imposed on humanity by others to keep them preocuppied. People look for happiness without ever being satisfied, without ever knowing what they are looking for. They look for happiness because society demands it. There is a myth that says that happy people work harder. I believe that only people looking for happiness work hard, because they have a reason to. Happy people don't work at all, unless they find happiness in their work. Society demands that pursuit, because than everyone has a purpose in life and people with a purpose don't commit suicide. It however does not want people to reach the satisfaction of happiness because then there would be no more reason to consume and society would collapse. There would be no more reason to explore and society would stagnate.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Have you just been dumped?

I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

[The Stranger]

no.

[Marshal Murat]

PVC - Sigged.

[HoreTore]

The pursuit of happiness is artificial. It is not the origin of men's struggle to survive and will never will be.

Ah - but we have moved beyond the simple need for survival and reproduction by now, haven't we?

[The Stranger]

have we really (have we moved on to consuming instead?)? We like to believe we have, and so the people with the best qualities (aka most intelligent, athletic and beautiful people) no longer or barely reproduce and we are uncapable of surviving (most of us in the west anyway) if we are put outside our comfortable little appartments...

we still don't know what we're doing here... beside the obvious, reproduction (to ensure the survival of the species) and to maintain the balance of the ecosystem...

needless to say we suck at both...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

PVC - Sigged.

[HoreTore]

have we really (have we moved on to consuming instead?)? We like to believe we have, and so the people with the best qualities (aka most intelligent, athletic and beautiful people) no longer or barely reproduce and we are uncapable of surviving (most of us in the west anyway) if we are put outside our comfortable little appartments...

we still don't know what we're doing here... beside the obvious, reproduction (to ensure the survival of the species) and to maintain the balance of the ecosystem...

needless to say we suck at both...

Bah, speak for yoursself!

As for me, I have found the meaning of life - it's enjoyment and pleasure. Get as much of it as possible. Reproduction? Hah! If I have kids, it'll probably one that should've been a wet stain on the bed...

[Centurion1]

Enjoyment and pleasure probably equal happiness to most people....... And uh reproducing is a happy event. As is surviving.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I never understood the "the purpose of life is to continue the human race" line of thought, because what is the point in continuing something that has no purpose in itself? Gah, this backroom is making me too philosophical...

[HoreTore]

Enjoyment and pleasure probably equal happiness to most people.......

Indeed it does.

And uh reproducing is a happy event. As is surviving.

Not reproduction itself, that leads to sleepless nights, anxiety, stress and all sorts of unhappiness. The act which was meant to lead to reproduction though.... As for surviving.... Let's swap it around, will you be unhappy if you stop surviving? How will you know?

@Rhy: Luckily it's friday night now, you have an excuse to drown your worries in ale

[lars573]

I never understood the "the purpose of life is to continue the human race" line of thought, because what is the point in continuing something that has no purpose in itself? Gah, this backroom is making me too philosophical...

You almost have it. There is no point, no purpose. We are, and that's all we have. Therefore we must work to keep it.

[Vladimir]

You almost have it. There is no point, no purpose. We are, and that's all we have. Therefore we must work to keep it.

Well I wouldn't say that's all we have but without that there is nothing else for us.

[TinCow]

I believe that only people looking for happiness work hard, because they have a reason to. Happy people don't work at all, unless they find happiness in their work.

Incorrect. I have been happy for a very long period of time. One of the major reasons why I am happy is that I am financially secure. If I were to stop working, I would lose that financial security and no longer be able to maintain my lifestyle. This would almost certainly cause me to be unhappy. Thus, though I have obtained happiness, I continue to work hard so that I can continue experiencing that happiness.

Plus, not working is boring.

[Hooahguy]

Plus, not working is boring.

thats debatable.

[rvg]

You almost have it. There is no point, no purpose. We are, and that's all we have. Therefore we must work to keep it.

God is the only thing that gives meaning and purpose to existence. And I'm not talking just about humanity; the Universe itself is nothing without God.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You almost have it. There is no point, no purpose. We are, and that's all we have. Therefore we must work to keep it.

Ego sum, Ego Sum Dicto!

[lars573]

God is the only thing that gives meaning and purpose to existence. And I'm not talking just about humanity; the Universe itself is nothing without God.

God doesn't exist. Humanity and the universe are a fluke. Want to try that again?

[miotas]

God is the only thing that gives meaning and purpose to existence. And I'm not talking just about humanity; the Universe itself is nothing without God.

One of the problems I have with believing in God is that for God to exist then he must know what is in the future and if that is the case then we have no control over our lives. How can someone be happy knowing there is nothing they can do to affect the course of their lives?

Anywho, I quite like this poem that my nanna has hanging on her wall:

SUCCESS

To laugh often and much;
To win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children;
To earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends;
To appreciate beauty, to find the best in others;
To leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition;
To know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived.
This is to have succeeded

I believe that "success" could just as easily be replaced with "happiness".

[Moros]

You don't need to pursuit happines. You just being it is enough. Just make yourself happy. It's not hard. Not hard at all.
I've been happy for as long as I live. Never had to pursuit it.

Also TS, did you just admit being bad at reproducing? Is this what happened? Did your "buddy" let you down or something? If so don't worry it can happen to anyone. Well not me of course but err... :runs away:

Edit: Miotas succes and happiness are to very different things. Look at poor africans. They usually have lives, but are much happier than many of the suicidal rich Europeans and Americans. I think succes can even brake happiness. However on one point they are a like. You shouldn't need to pursuit succes. You just have to make it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

One of the problems I have with believing in God is that for God to exist then he must know what is in the future and if that is the case then we have no control over our lives. How can someone be happy knowing there is nothing they can do to affect the course of their lives?

This is very much a matter of opinion, and there is no reason it must be this way.

[miotas]

Edit: Miotas succes and happiness are to very different things. Look at poor africans. They usually have shitty lives, but are much happier than many of the suicidal rich Europeans and Americans. I think succes can even brake happiness. However on one point they are a like. You shouldn't need to pursuit succes. You just have to make it.

I wasn't talking about that type of success but the type of simple, genuinely gratifying success mentioned in the poem. You did read the poem didn't you?

[Rhyfelwyr]

You almost have it. There is no point, no purpose. We are, and that's all we have. Therefore we must work to keep it.

But why work to keep something of no value?

Also, going strictly along scientific lines, what exactly are 'we'? What is a human being? Obviously they have a body etc, but what about the mental aspect? According to science, aren't we really just biological robots, acting according to all the chemical reactions in our brains? We have no control over these (other than the controlling methods we could use through other chemical reactions in our brains to make the decisions to control them, but that just starts a cycle...), and so there is no such thing as choice. Miotas was saying about how he couldn't be happy not being able to control his life under an all-knowing God, and I would guess that in saying such a thing he must have presumed he has some kind of conscience by which he identifies himself. But then, does science even allow for such an idea as a conscience/soul?

You could say your consciousness is the sum of the workings of your brain, but really that's not consciousness, that's just a set of complicated reactions which work every bit as mechanically and rigidly as the PC I'm sitting at right now.

What is the point of living under such circumstances?

[PBI]

God is the only thing that gives meaning and purpose to existence. And I'm not talking just about humanity; the Universe itself is nothing without God.

I don't really understand why a belief in God implies a meaning and purpose to existence that an atheistic view does not. One could argue a religious person is simply mindlessly seeking pleasure for its own sake as much as a hedonist, the only difference being that the religious person believes their actions will result in happiness later rather than now. Either way, you still have to invent a meaning for it of your own.

As to your last statement, I totally disagree. I do not need to believe that a Universe so vast, so complex and so packed with layer upon layer of intricate and fascinating structure was created for a purpose to be in awe of it.

One of the problems I have with believing in God is that for God to exist then he must know what is in the future and if that is the case then we have no control over our lives. How can someone be happy knowing there is nothing they can do to affect the course of their lives?

I think you're slightly missing the point of determinism. The idea is not that the events in your life will play out according to a set script no matter how hard you try to direct them otherwise, but instead that while your actions and decisions have very real consequences for the outcome of your life, there are nonetheless clear reasons why you come to every decision you make, even if you don't always know what those reasons are. I've never understood why this is a troubling thought; I would like to hope I have reasons for all my decisions even if they are not always good ones.

This is very much a matter of opinion, and there is no reason it must be this way.

Indeed, my understanding of quantum mechanics is that we have good reason to believe it cannot be this way.

What is the point of living under such circumstances?

What is the point of living if one does have a soul and free will?

Ultimately, isn't a religious person motivated just as much as a cold, robotic atheist by the desire for pleasure, and more importantly, fear of pain?

[miotas]

Also, going strictly along scientific lines, what exactly are 'we'? What is a human being? Obviously they have a body etc, but what about the mental aspect? According to science, aren't we really just biological robots, acting according to all the chemical reactions in our brains? We have no control over these (other than the controlling methods we could use through other chemical reactions in our brains to make the decisions to control them, but that just starts a cycle...), and so there is no such thing as choice. Miotas was saying about how he couldn't be happy not being able to control his life under an all-knowing God, and I would guess that in saying such a thing he must have presumed he has some kind of conscience by which he identifies himself. But then, does science even allow for such an idea as a conscience/soul?

Of course. That is exactly why I keep an open mind and identify myself as an agnostic, I just find that it is terribly ironic, and even a little sad that an athiest has to have faith that no gods exist because science can't prove they don't. If a billion people believe something that science can't disprove then maybe there's something to it.

I think you're slightly missing the point of determinism. The idea is not that the events in your life will play out according to a set script no matter how hard you try to direct them otherwise, but instead that while your actions and decisions have very real consequences for the outcome of your life, there are nonetheless clear reasons why you come to every decision you make, even if you don't always know what those reasons are. I've never understood why this is a troubling thought; I would like to hope I have reasons for all my decisions even if they are not always good ones.

I was refering to the omniscent god in the bible. True omniscence would mean he knows all past, present and future, and maybe there are different ways to interperate it and maybe the choices are the ones I would have picked anyway, I just like the idea that I chose something because I wanted to, not because its what was going to happen. Gah! now I've confused myself.

I reckon the ancient gods were awesome, basically just a bunch of very, but not all, powerful blokes going around, getting people to think they were awesome then getting drunk and absconding with the nearest shiela, kinda like AC/DC

What could be more gratifying than getting drunk with your chosen diety and running around town causing a ruckus before he ditches you in the wee hours of the morning for the hot red head. Now that's true happiness right there I think I'm going to try and cause a revival of the worship of Dionysus, he is the perfect god for Australia after all.

[The Stranger]

You don't need to pursuit happines. You just being it is enough. Just make yourself happy. It's not hard. Not hard at all.
I've been happy for as long as I live. Never had to pursuit it.

Also TS, did you just admit being bad at reproducing? Is this what happened? Did your "buddy" let you down or something? If so don't worry it can happen to anyone. Well not me of course but err... :runs away:

Edit: Miotas succes and happiness are to very different things. Look at poor africans. They usually have lives, but are much happier than many of the suicidal rich Europeans and Americans. I think succes can even brake happiness. However on one point they are a like. You shouldn't need to pursuit succes. You just have to make it.

no ofcourse not. and i do egree with your edit.


We (in the west) have become the definition of our consumption. We are because we buy, not the we buy because we are. We would not be worthy humans in the eyes of the others if we would not buy the newest mobile phones, lcd TV's, computers, latest infashion clothes and furniture? If we wouldnt buy any of these things, if you wouldnt buy our own houses and etc, we would become sub-humans, beggars. We would be regarded with suspicion as deviators and therefor dangerous. We have to buy in order to maintain our place in society. We have to buy in order to justify our existance. Because why would we otherwise work 45 hours a week in a position that doesnt give us the respect we think we deserve, with people we dont like, a job we hate and a boss we despise, if we wouldnt be able to buy that new tv? That new tv that will this time, yes this time it really will, provide us that ever elusive happiness. But no it doesnt, we feel happy the moment we buy it, because it is the fruit of our labour, and we feel happy as long as it is new. But than it becomes normal and were already looking for the next throphy, the next justification of our otherwise meaningless life. How many girls do not buy alot of crap they dont need when they feel unhappy, just to make them forget about how they feel, to make them feel better. But they always feel guilty afterwards.

(the cursored is quoted from here Brian Massumi

[Husar]

Yes, that's what the guys in church always say as well but they add that only God can make you really happy and that it's the only happiness that lasts forever.

Is that what you're aiming at or do you have a better solution?

[The Stranger]

I'm not religious.

I think happiness is state of mind, you either are or are not happy. its useless to pursue it.

[Husar]

But there are obviously things that can change that, even if it's just for a short amount of time, why is it wrong to pursuit those?

[The Stranger]

I dont think it is wrong to pursuit those, but it is wrong to let them become an obsession. Happiness means acceptance, it means that you accept that what you have is enough, and that you don't need anything more. It means that you will shut yourself from change, because change is unknown and uncertain. you dont know if it will change for better or worse. and if you would want change, that would mean that you are not entirely happy with the situation you are in. if we would be a happy race we wouldve gotten nowhere, we would still party, walk around naked, roast wild pigs and have orgies in our caves... and deep down that is all we still want.

I mean look at us, we have every reason to be happy, most of us in the west anyway, we are rich, we have good infrastructure, we have all kinds of luxuries, we have education, unlimited access to knowledge and information, and yet we have emo's. Yet we have lots of depressions and suicides. We have people who have no reason to be unhappy other than that there is too much choice to be happy. Give people the opportunity to be happy, the time to think about their lives and they will become unhappy. It is too much pressure. Tell people they have to succeed and many will break under the pressure, demand of people that they have to be happy and they will become unhappy.

Give people no opportunity to be unhappy, because being unhappy will kill them, and they will live in a state joy.