The reasons for the mddoing community being so strong

[paramedicguyer]

Ok, so I just had my wisdom teeth pulled, am basking in vicadine, and sucking down mash potatoes. So i am out of it, so please forgive me if this is off topic. Oh and my fallout3 came. I have been around the nexus for a while, and it seems to me that those fallout moders have a lot easier time modding FO3 than TW does, I mean peoples biggest problems are gettin mods to work together. Why is it then do you all think bethesda goes to such lengths to help people while CA seems to try and make it more difficult. ( i am baised tho, as I do hold bethesda as being one of the most reputable gaming companies in the world). TW modding community is just as large as FO3 (of fallout in general), and yet it is always a struggle to figure out how to get things done.

just my 2 cents, if i'm wrong, tell me, just don't give me crap.

[Skullheadhq]

Bethesda's vanilla games are GREAT already, like Oblivion, it's second to none, not even EB (had to buy it 5 times since the discs where scratched.

But then, RTW is not great, but it is a whole different game and genre then Oblivion/Fallout.
And yes, Bethesda actually cares for fans, while CA only cares about the big masses who they have to sell their game to, and so they make cool graphix and a shitty AI, because, let's be honest, the average RTW player is a complete noob and will lose from the AI on VH already. So a hard AI will make the game accesible to less players, if the RTW would be as it should be , and you play vanilla Macedon, you will get barbarian invasions (galatians, thraikans) that will raid your entire country, get stuck in a completely difficult diplomacy that is ever changing, conspiracies, sea invasions that are actually NOT BUGGED and no hardcodes and nasty surprise invasions.

The average John Doe would be dead at turn 5!

That's why your AI and moddables are stupid.

[mountaingoat]

something must of gone on in the CA hq after the release of MTW VI ... probably something to do with making a shit load more money ....

.. seems the last of the series have been passed off as finished games.

[Power2the1]

CA/SEGA realizes there is no competition the market as no other company has a game that really does what the TW series can do.

Therefore, a sub par product has no rival or competition, therefore will not improve because it sees no need to improve. Theres no industry standard to meet I suppose.

So for historical enthusiast, we have to shell out the money for the vanilla game to get a finished product, namely, the player made mods that the modding teams come out with. Bitter sweet.

[paramedicguyer]

Perhaps we should just stop buying CA games. Wat is still mindblowng for me is that the EB team has done for free wat CA couldnt do for all the millions they've earned.
From wat ive seen of EB2 previews and my first hand experience of ETW. EB 2 will be far superior, jeez even EB is superior to M2TW and even some aspects of ETW already. The unit skin for ETW are absolutely terrible. It's as tho they took a step back, variation is almost nill, and detail even on very high (ultra) is still not appetizing. While the campaign engine itself I like, everything is terrible. There are only wat 5 or 6 buildings to build then you can just upgrade them, and a village can only support one building. That really has taken the strategy out of it. The whole campaign seems to be just setup to fight battles not actually engage in empire building. The only highlight of the game is the sea battles, but even those get old after a while (no variety between ships). CA really seems to be marketing to the lowest common denominator. Imagine if bethesda bought CA, holy crap wouldn't that just be amazing.

I know this is not an EB topic but I posted it here because, I think many would agree the EBer's are one of the most devoted, experienced and attuned groups for any TW game.

[Whatever Scortamareva]

To be honest I know you guys already realise how little scope there is for a game like EB on the wider market, to spend time (what the EB were rich in but CA had little of) and money on something like this would be ridiculous. To be honest, I think they made a groundbreaking, and ultimately really fun game in RTW, and the fans, helped along by the moddable coding, could easily sculpt the original game into different versions to improve and transform it.

For the guy above me, there's no reason to stop buying CA games (I know you weren't being serious ), I know that, even for their millions, they wouldn't want or need to make a game like EB, and it's decisions like that and the sick games they made which appeal to the majority and made them so successful. To be honest i applaud CA for bringing the Ancient world into light, historically accurate or not (not), and this is what made me so interested in it, and also made the EB team strive to change it into something less ahistorical.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Yeah, but what it worse is the fact that CA is most likely undoubtedly will turn in the direction of the History Channel and Empire Earth III... The only question now is whether the games will remain just as modable or not, so that real people can fix them.

So, why would a company NOT makes its games easily modded with little hardcodes, other than to make the game run faster? Surely history shows that the most successful games are usually also the least hardcoded? Oh, wait, CA wipes its rear end with history... Shoot, I did not think about that...

[Krusader]

To be honest I know you guys already realise how little scope there is for a game like EB on the wider market, to spend time (what the EB were rich in but CA had little of) and money on something like this would be ridiculous. To be honest, I think they made a groundbreaking, and ultimately really fun game in RTW, and the fans, helped along by the moddable coding, could easily sculpt the original game into different versions to improve and transform it.

For the guy above me, there's no reason to stop buying CA games (I know you weren't being serious ), I know that, even for their millions, they wouldn't want or need to make a game like EB, and it's decisions like that and the sick games they made which appeal to the majority and made them so successful. To be honest i applaud CA for bringing the Ancient world into light, historically accurate or not (not), and this is what made me so interested in it, and also made the EB team strive to change it into something less ahistorical.

There are reasons enough to stop buying CA games. But for me the sole reason is that the quality of their games has seen a deterioration since M2TW in my own view. I'm not going to support a company that does not make games I want to buy.

There will be no EB3 for ETW simply because the game is not that moddable and most importantly the focus is on armies that kill eachother with ranged weapons, so naturally the engine is the same.

[DaciaJC]

Yeah, but what it worse is the fact that CA is most likely undoubtedly will turn in the direction of the History Channel and Empire Earth III...

Gah, don't get me started. Ice Road Truckers be damned...

There are reasons enough to stop buying CA games. But for me the sole reason is that the quality of their games has seen a deterioration since M2TW in my own view. I'm not going to support a company that does not make games I want to buy.

There will be no EB3 for ETW simply because the game is not that moddable and most importantly the focus is on armies that kill eachother with ranged weapons, so naturally the engine is the same.

If CA announced R2TW... and it appeared that the game would be sufficiently mod-able... would there be a chance of EB3? I don't request a concrete answer, but it seems like you share no love for CA.

[Krusader]

If CA announced R2TW... and it appeared that the game would be sufficiently mod-able... would there be a chance of EB3? I don't request a concrete answer, but it seems like you share no love for CA.

I don't hate CA. They are a business and for them it is important to earn money. Which is why TW games have become more Hollywoodish. The sales figures for ETW should prove that, along with DLC.
ETW however seems to be much more mod-unfriendly and the crackpot conspiracymonger in me thinks they might see mods as threats to their DLCs. I can't imagine R2TW becoming more modfriendly. And if there will be EB3...don't know. A persistent problem with EB2 is that we have had a lack of modelers and skinners.

A suit in Activision had apparently once said that they aren't happy about modding, because they want gamers to play their games for so so long and then move on to the other games they are releasing later. To me that was a quote that shows someone doesn't understand the videogames market that well...seems to think gamers will buy anything that is released.

[johnhughthom]

A suit in Activision had apparently once said that they aren't happy about modding, because they want gamers to play their games for so so long and then move on to the other games they are releasing later. To me that was a quote that shows someone doesn't understand the videogames market that well...seems to think gamers will buy anything that is released.

Ummm, isn't that actually true of a lot of gamers?

[Apázlinemjó]

Ummm, isn't that actually true of a lot of gamers?

Maybe the younger gamers, but I doubt that the older ones will buy games just because they are new and fancy.

[Watchman]

Largely irrelevant if the company keeps turning a profit anyway, that. Which after all is what they exist for.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Heh, CA probably hates the EB Team's guts for making turning so many people into CA-bashers/haters. I mean, seriously, after I played EB I lost all desire to play any vanilla CA game.

And is it really true ETW is less modable? Or is it just that it is so dumbed-down that there is little to choose from anyway?

[Krusader]

Ummm, isn't that actually true of a lot of gamers?

For younger ones. I was like that. But I don't know anyone who buys or heck even pirates any and every game that comes out.

Heh, CA probably hates the EB Team's guts for making turning so many people into CA-bashers/haters. I mean, seriously, after I played EB I lost all desire to play any vanilla CA game.

And is it really true ETW is less modable? Or is it just that it is so dumbed-down that there is little to choose form anyway?

From what I read yes. And seeing that you have to edit files "hex-style" to enable factions in ETW compared to RTW/M2TW I'm inclined to agree. Do note I'm talking about heavy modding, like EB, RTR, Broken Crescent and I'd think Stainless Steel too (never had the pleasure of testing that mod. Haven't bought Kingdoms).

[Whatever Scortamareva]

A (possibly contraversial) solution could be for CA to become a part of the larger mods and help sponsor/promote/develop the larger mods for advertising space inside the game or the ability to market the mod as an expansion pack.

But that'll never happen, and bringing money into EB would be like putting a crack pipe and a loada crack in heaven.

[Andy1984]

Don't hope for any help CA offers EB. For them EB is indeed a cost in lost (or later) sales revenues as Krusader pointed out. Should they focus on the older gaming market, they'd be aiming for a market that spends relatively less on games (compared to the younger ones) while far higher quality of the game is being demanded. They'd gain a slightly bigger share on the gaming market, only to actually loose relative profits. The people who own CA (market-share holders) aren't going to be happy to earn less per share in turn for owning a part of a bigger company. Sadly, that's how the market works.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Yeah, nobody wants to buy EB. The vast majority of RTW players were most likely casual players. I talked to a few. Good fun it was. I spent 20 minutes of my art class interrogating until I finally got they first played Greek Cities and then some Roman faction. That bloke did not have single idea what each unit was, and did not care. He did not know what time-period the game was set, nor anything about the history of that time.

Really, for most people anything before 18th century is a haze, and for an average American high-schooler, anything before 20th century is clouded. And yes, that kid in my art class was, believe it or not, a 10th grader. Not a dull one either. He made decent grades. But they barely teach world history in US, preferring to shove American history and the Holocaust until your brain pops or until your late high-school years when you actually get a real, world history class with a crappy teacher who makes mistakes all the time and has no in-depth info (by that I mean something more in-depth than the Wikipedia opening paragraph) on anything even though he had a Master's in history (that's what happened to me).

My American History (bah, I had it even in 11th grade, and I will have American government in 12th - I am sick of America by now, as I literally know more than a bloke with a PhD on American history ) teacher the 2008-2009 year had a PhD in American History but failed miserably when she attempted to explain World History. (you have to, in order to understand how it affected US) She knew so little, it was pathetic to the tears. Talk about specialisation... Oh, and what is her favourite book of all time? Not Churchill's Second World War of course. No. It was Twilight!!!

/rant mode off - I had to let it out

[bobbin]

From what I read yes. And seeing that you have to edit files "hex-style" to enable factions in ETW compared to RTW/M2TW I'm inclined to agree. Do note I'm talking about heavy modding, like EB, RTR, Broken Crescent and I'd think Stainless Steel too (never had the pleasure of testing that mod. Haven't bought Kingdoms).

I imagine most ETW modders are hoping that CA will make good on their promise of a MDK otherwise they are pretty much screwed.

ps: I'm enjoying the irony of you making a mod for Kingdoms without owning it.

[Azathoth]

Hey, in my school you take 2 years of World History, 1 year of US History, and 1 year of Economics. And we only spent a day on the Holocaust (documentary). So no need to make generalizations.

The Total War games aren't for history buffs, and while they may be arcadey they are fun for pure, mindless slaughter. It's like criticizing a kung-fu movie for not having an excellent story.

I do wish they would make at least one superhistorical game, or maybe a universal simulator so that you can get everything from Mecha Total War to Star Wars Total War to The Mummy Total War to Africa Total War (though that would be quite a feat of programming ).

[Aemilius Paulus]

Hey, in my school you take 2 years of World History, 1 year of US History, and 1 year of Economics. And we only spent a day on the Holocaust (documentary). So no need to make generalizations.

Yeah, your school. I have been to 7 different American schools, and all the same in regards to history, minus minor variations. Not to mention, 98% of America's public schools are sure to be worse than yours. And shoot, I know the school you go to. It is quite (very!) prestigious for a public school.

As for me, I should have went to my school's rival. We have two superb schools here: a technical school here, and an IB program school. Both are good, but one is "technical" and the other is purely academic. I go to the technical one, ans Social Studies is what suffered the most in my school when the board decided to draw up the course list.

Not to mention, all the schools around us likewise have 2 world history courses (European History & generic World History), 1 Economics, and 1 American Gov't courses. We lack European history. But then we have several business classes. In any case, that is laughably little. And we no longer have a Geography course. I guess all hope for Americans to gain a sense of even as much as a minor understanding of the world map was lost. Most schooled Africans know much more than an average national here. No one cares about Geography

[WinsingtonIII]

We should just make people take the countries of the world sporcle test until they score at least 95%.
I'm actually really heated about this issue right now because I just found out that the high school I went to is cutting European history for a SECOND year of U.S. history. Like that's what we really need..... and this from a superintendent who says he's all worldly and worked at an international school in Beijing. We still have "world cultures" freshman year, which does cover pretty much everything except the West, but it's a very shallow understanding due to the broad focus.

Sorry for participating in the derailing of this thread haha.

[moonburn]

nothing wrong in ca bussniess model imho if i was to invest in it i would be more worried with the lack of barriers for competition to enter the market then modding...

problem with ca games is that they have a unique aproach that if others decide to take advantage off or even copying it´s functionality they would have a harder time selling the games

as for the lack of competition some people mentioned, i´m sorry to disagree but in the world of real time tactics game there´s plenty of amazing games some are even over 10 years old but still work great and are great fun (most notably and my all time favourite dark omen) . as for the strategy part anyone who played pharao or civilization or even the original setlers know it´s not that hard to create an evolving gaming experience that despite being complex is still great fun.

they are just capitalizing on a fresh aproach that they "found/invented" a few years back.

however as a gamer i must agree that since the medieval total war the games have lost interest for me at least, i must admit i always "buy/download" a pirate copy before deciding if i buy the original or not (demos tend to be less then .... no fun in them) and i only bought rtw to try and play rtr and then when i went to download it i read that eb was better.

the big competitive advantage that ca should have was a proper artificial inteligence (been how many years since shogun??) that could be customised for the target audience cause when a game good in strategy and tactical batle finally emerges they will loose ground/market fast and will drop big time because of their easy profit aproach.

even the mindless kids who currently buy the games will evolve and demand bigger challanges.

as for the off track into american education anyone with a computer can learn more and faster then at a school class, actually homeschooling is the future if we consider the way society is evolving and school is very close to becoming obselete except for it´s socialisation valour (wich wierdly is becoming more and more important as they loose ground in education values to new ways of teaching)

[Azathoth]

as for the off track into american education anyone with a computer can learn more and faster then at a school class, actually homeschooling is the future if we consider the way society is evolving and school is very close to becoming obselete except for it´s socialisation valour (wich wierdly is becoming more and more important as they loose ground in education values to new ways of teaching)

Lol, the "future" is downloading data into our cerebral implants by the petabyte.

[Aemilius Paulus]

When will people stop nagging and bitching (is "bitching" a vulgar word BTW ? I heard it being used in a Pixar animated film, so it cannot be vulgar, can it?) about AI? That is the most difficult thing to do in the whole entire game. It is like filling a bucket with cherries when there is a moderately-sized hole on the bottom. It will take you an immense amount of time and cherries before the whole is plugged due to a random chance of the cherry structuring themselves the correct way, especially with the help of pressure. And even when the hole in the bucket is plugged, it is still not guaranteed to work

Bottom line, there are engineers/programmers working all around the world to create better AI and they still have an eternity of work in front of them. AI is perhaps the single part of a game you can pour thousands of dollars USD in, and still not have it work properly. The current TW games are immensely complex, far from the simplicity of Shogun (especially the campaign map). This requires remarkable skill in AI coding, and bugs will still remain. The more complex TW gets, the more difficult the making of AI will be.

After Shogun, the AI declined as MTW came in, and then took a nose-dive when the Shogun-MTW engine was abandoned and RTW-M2TW engine came in. More complexity=poorer AI, as it has more choices. I cannot imagine a more striking contrast than the one between MTW-style campaign map and RTW counterpart. A world of difference. No wonder RTW campaign AI seems so imbecilic. it can move anywhere, bypassing or stumbling on many things. Not like the "I move from this square to that square of MTW".

[Skullheadhq]

You're right, AP, but then make the AI completely moddable, so we could at least improve it.

[Alsatia]

You're right, AP, but then make the AI completely moddable, so we could at least improve it.

Agreed. But even the AI will take so much time to finalise.

[bobbin]

A world of difference. No wonder RTW campaign AI seems so imbecilic. it can move anywhere, bypassing or stumbling on many things. Not like the "I move from this square to that square of MTW".

Actually RTW still had "squares" there's just loads more than MTW. In ETW they got rid of them which strikes me as one of the more odd improvments they made, it vastly increased the complexity of the map (and thus difficulty for AI coding) for very little perceivable gain.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Actually RTW still had "squares" there's just loads more than MTW.

Yeah, I have seen that. But you know what I am speaking of. Even ETW has squares, they are just too small to matter. Well, everything has to be made of polygons...

You're right, AP, but then make the AI completely moddable, so we could at least improve it.

Good suggestion, but how much of the finer points do we understand? What M2TW offers us to mod as far as AI goes is basic, but can we do more? Do we understand their coding enough to mod it? I am not doubting the modders, just asking. Making AI is the most complex thing in the game. How many people can mod it from the very basics and show reasonable success?

And how much will the game speed plummet with absolutely non-hardcoded AI?

[Skullheadhq]

they could better just give us the source code, Some devs do it after x years, and than you get the best mods you can imagine, of course, not everyone is able to do that, but a small group could, and with wondrous results. And I can't imagine they're turning big profits on RTW now, with €5 a disc.

Maybe with E:TW they'll release better AI is DLC :P