Academy bonuses?

[Ludens]

Im sure this happened widely and not isolated in egypt it would make alot of sense.

It makes sense to our modern perspective, but it may not have in the classical world. The Romans and Greeks did not have our concept of professionals. An academy would be visited by gentlemen of leisure rather than trainees hoping to get a job. I may be wrong, but you'll have to present some evidence that it was academies rather than on-the-job training that produced scribes and healers.

The system may have existed in Egypt and the other bureaucracies of the east, but these were now ruled by Hellenes.

As for nomadic faction. and academie is a long shot. but a wise ruler would definetely get a wise shamen scribe etc to teach his kids siblings. like genghis khan did to his siblings and kids

Again, obviously the nomads would have had some form of education. But that's not the same as an academy.

[V.T. Marvin]

@Ludens - I would agree with what you have just said, except I think that the point raised by USERMAATKA is still valid taking into accout the fact that "Academy" bbranch of the building tree in EB, like all other "buildings", is not a representation of an academy in a narrow sense - just a particular building, but rather a representation of some sort of an infrastructure. In this broader sense, I think, it could well encompass also the above-mentioned methods of some sort of "intellectual apprenticeship" to produce the "professionals" (like architects, engineers, healers, more sophisticated craftsmen, etc.) who DID exist - in some form or another, also in the acient societies.

[Watchman]

Don't the academy-type buildings contribute to the accumulation of precisely suchlike as ancillaries, or am I severely mistaken ? Note however that the lot would be around in quite the numbers regardless - someone needs to build the cities and assorted infrastructure, count taxes etc., academies or no.

[Ludens]

@Ludens - I would agree with what you have just said, except I think that the point raised by USERMAATKA is still valid taking into accout the fact that "Academy" bbranch of the building tree in EB, like all other "buildings", is not a representation of an academy in a narrow sense - just a particular building, but rather a representation of some sort of an infrastructure. In this broader sense, I think, it could well encompass also the above-mentioned methods of some sort of "intellectual apprenticeship" to produce the "professionals" (like architects, engineers, healers, more sophisticated craftsmen, etc.) who DID exist - in some form or another, also in the acient societies.

True, but craftsmen existed without academies and weren't trained in them. They learned their trade as an apprentice to another craftsman. I imagine the same applies to healers and engineers, although as USERMAATKA points out there did exist schools for healers in Egypt.

[USERMAATKA]

It makes sense to our modern perspective, but it may not have in the classical world. The Romans and Greeks did not have our concept of professionals. An academy would be visited by gentlemen of leisure rather than trainees hoping to get a job. I may be wrong, but you'll have to present some evidence that it was academies rather than on-the-job training that produced scribes and healers.

The system may have existed in Egypt and the other bureaucracies of the east, but these were now ruled by Hellenes.



Again, obviously the nomads would have had some form of education. But that's not the same as an academy.

Hello,

Good points u raise. I would argue that the greeks and romans did have profesionals like doctors, tax surveryurs, engineers. etc. galen as an example for a doctor a bit of nutcase though. and professionals were recognised and hired like the cabaal of engineers hired to develop the gasrtophetes. and educational intitutions weret just for gentlemen. A vast infrastructure existed to raise educated governors tax collectors, judges, architects, botansists, accountants. etc. This would be found across the whole mediteranean. ranging from egyt mesopotamia, and classical greece and rome.

Academies/schools etc were places for intelectuals to debate and spend liesure time as u say yes. however, and educational infrastucture would be nesecary to teach someone how to read and write. Also, libraries/academies etc were places for serious scientists to research and invent new ideas. The best documented learning institution would be the library of alexandria with many scientists contributing in fields like philosophy history etc. but also more practical things like navigation, medicine, mathematics , astonomy. and these sciencves in turn will create benefits and bonuses across healthcare economy farming etc. For example work on an improved solar calender like the egyptian one. would better improve farming and predicting sowing and harvesting time thus improving the harvest thus improving the economy (a hellinised egyptian astonomer figured out leap years i read ages ago and he did it in the library in alexandria). More wealthier meddiel class famillies will buy and education for their children. the kids end up as a historian mathematician. are aprenticed with another doctor etc. make a name for themselves then head to a research institution later in life.

Now i dont have detailed info with classical greek and roman civilisations and i keep forgeting names. Howver an educational infratucture did exist in both athens and sparta for example and yes it was dancing and jumping and fighting and poetry. but also in athens writing and medical concepts to keep urself fit (like in the lyceum and academy).

The egyptian and babylonion educational infrasturctures are very well documented. Im traveling tomorrow so ill look up a few references and will post them hopefully next week. I definetly have read alot about egypts education infrastucture. i mention this because u argue thyre ruled by hellenes. But we know full well the hellenes integrated as well as dominated. learning form the people they conqured adopting their gods their calenders like the adoption of teh egyptian solar calendar by the romans and the adoption of the babylonian calender by alexander. the helenes Also taught so Being an egyptian i know full well form the boring history books rammed in my throat as a kid. that we learnt form them became hellinised adopting the greek alphabet like in modern coptic. words form greek. superstitions, and foods. not to mention art forms like the late period mumies like the beutiful examples in the pergamon museum in berlin (a must see) and the bahariya oasis mummies.

We also know the greeks adopted local admintistration and beuracratic practices as well as adding some of their own. So i would argue Evenn if they didnt have professionals as u argued in the begining. They would definetely have them now after integration. not to mention the examples of the library of alexandria (ill get a few referneces about scientists from there)

soooooooooo sorry for th long post theres a bit more.

V.T Marvin makes a wonderful point of a infrasturcture of education represented by the academy branch of buildings. thats would not represent an underlying system either of small local village schools, aprenticeship etc.

Now i will argue such an infrastucture may exist not only in the mediteranean settled cultures but also in nomadic cultures to as they expand into 'civilised' lands like the saka and suromatae. which is the case with the pahlav. This infrastucture of education that provides anciliaries like Aulus_Hirtius points out would run the city without a governor and give the city some bonuses. so in the helenic cultures thyre calles academies and equivelant in lets say the suromatae would be the apprentisship tent or whatever it should be called!!

Thank you for ur time i wont be online for 3 days or so. but i look forward for any responses/thrashing.

regards,

[Whatever Scortamareva]

Perhaps having an academy in a settlement could increase the chance of that settlement receiving a benefactor adoptee with some nice traits..

[Ludens]

Good points u raise. I would argue that the greeks and romans did have profesionals like doctors, tax surveryurs, engineers. etc. galen as an example for a doctor a bit of nutcase though. and professionals were recognised and hired like the cabaal of engineers hired to develop the gasrtophetes.

Yes, you are right about that, but these aren't necessarily academy-trained. My impression is that they learned their skills by working as an assistant for another doctor or engineer.

A vast infrastructure existed to raise educated governors tax collectors, judges, architects, botansists, accountants. etc. This would be found across the whole mediteranean. ranging from egyt mesopotamia, and classical greece and rome.

Could you provide evidence for this vast infrastructure? So far you've only mentioned Egypt and the Middle-East, which were known for their vast bureaucracies. How did these fare after the Macedonians took over?

Academies/schools etc were places for intelectuals to debate and spend liesure time as u say yes. however, and educational infrastucture would be nesecary to teach someone how to read and write. Also, libraries/academies etc were places for serious scientists to research and invent new ideas. The best documented learning institution would be the library of alexandria with many scientists contributing in fields like philosophy history etc. but also more practical things like navigation, medicine, mathematics , astonomy. and these sciencves in turn will create benefits and bonuses across healthcare economy farming etc. For example work on an improved solar calender like the egyptian one. would better improve farming and predicting sowing and harvesting time thus improving the harvest thus improving the economy (a hellinised egyptian astonomer figured out leap years i read ages ago and he did it in the library in alexandria). More wealthier meddiel class famillies will buy and education for their children. the kids end up as a historian mathematician. are aprenticed with another doctor etc. make a name for themselves then head to a research institution later in life.

That's how science works today, but not how it worked back then. The improved astronomical calender did not improve farm yields because the farmers paid attention to the weather and the sky, not what the philosophers in Alexandria said. And why would they, when the astronomical calender was clearly of. Nor where libraries research institutions in the modern sense.

We also know the greeks adopted local admintistration and beuracratic practices as well as adding some of their own. So i would argue Evenn if they didnt have professionals as u argued in the begining. They would definetely have them now after integration. not to mention the examples of the library of alexandria (ill get a few referneces about scientists from there)

True, but you need to present direct proof that this occurred. Many eastern practices were not absorbed by Greek and Roman culture. The same thing goes for the nomads.

[USERMAATKA]

[QUOTE=Ludens;2316775]

Yes, you are right about that, but these aren't necessarily academy-trained. My impression is that they learned their skills by working as an assistant for another doctor or engineer.

Could you provide evidence for this vast infrastructure? So far you've only mentioned Egypt and the Middle-East, which were known for their vast bureaucracies. How did these fare after the Macedonians took over?

with the sakas and sauromatae i wouldnt know what happened as they intermixed with hellenes and their subject peoples. though the strabo quotes in eb when u conquer the crimean pininsula tells us they setteled and learned form the greeks in cherosenoses. while their northern cousins were more wild. it would be well to argue the sakas andsauo would learn the concept of administration and an education.
As for the middle east I do know that alexander basically kept the persian satrapies and administrations intact. he was in a rush to knock out darius. after the partition of babylon each general got a satrapy but as far as administrative work changes were superficial the upper eshelons obviously greek. but the resk intact. including priests scientists(with its broad meaning back then) and landed nobility.

As for egypt after ptolmaious took over as known u did have a susbstantial influx of greeks. but the old beurocracy and its people largely intact. specialy the old temples and their cults and theres is no shortage of evidence how the ptolemies lavished on teh temples. which doubled as educational facilities. each temple had a per-ankh(house of life 'library' somewhere nearby) though otheres existed outside the temples. but under tehit sponsorship. or the sponsorship of the pharoas.

though from what ive learned form my history is that the majority of the country remained untouched and things went on as they did. not u had a different ruling cast of greeks.

That's how science works today, but not how it worked back then. The improved astronomical calender did not improve farm yields because the farmers paid attention to the weather and the sky, not what the philosophers in Alexandria said. And why would they, when the astronomical calender was clearly of. Nor where libraries research institutions in the modern sense.

ill give u an example of the top of my head. the rise of sirius usually precedes the flood of the nile within a week or so, and an astronomer tyelling u ud better finish up the harvest and get out of the way would save money and prevent damage. this was predicted every year and anounced country wide a rather big event which we idiots in egypt still celebrate till now.
another example
engineer or idiot with some education would read the nilometer at the island of philae and predict how hight the flood will be, will it burst its banks and cause damage? will it be low and well have a bad harvest the next year? if its a low harvest the it would be better to hold on to grain stores and not export them to avoid next years possible fammine, again saving money. and greatly helping the state keep the people fed and avoid social unrest. I definetely know these remained in place after ptolmey.

Other organisations like tax revenue in the different nomes remained intact. the greeks were flabergasted by egypt (also scorned us) but they did learn alot. and the country was superbly run. the achemnids kept things as they were with the educated priesthood and nobility(which included magistrates, doctors, dentists,architect etc) intact and functioning. though largely disarmed.

i hope ive ansered all ur points please point out where i made a mess.

True, but you need to present direct proof that this occurred. Many eastern practices were not absorbed by Greek and Roman culture. The same thing goes for the nomads.