I...Agree with the French

[HoreTore]

§ 14‑12.8. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public property.

No person or persons shall in this State, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the State, or of the State of North Carolina. (1953, c. 1193, s. 7.)

§ 14‑12.11. Exemptions from provisions of Article.

Hmmmmmm....

South Carolina is quite warm, right? Something tells me you won't see that law in Alaska, for example...

[rvg]

Hmmmmmm....

South Carolina is quite warm, right? Something tells me you won't see that law in Alaska, for example...

Typical "Laws Gone Wild" situation. Was originally put in to prevent Klansmen from rallying, now you can't wear a respirator without getting a citation.

[Vladimir]

Did none of you notice that Carole is a French citizen of French ancestry.

Yep.

Religious converts are often worse than those born into the religion. They are so desperate to prove themselves.

[Fragony]

Anyway, why I suppose that banning burqas under the mask provision might not violate the letter of the law it would most certainly violate the spirit of the law.

Well not using every means at your disposal to end crap like this wouldn't be in the spirit of humanity. Personally I would rather shoot them.

[rvg]

Well not using every means at your disposal to end crap like this wouldn't be in the spirit of humanity. Personally I would rather shoot them.

Foreal? That's harsh.

[Tribesman]

Well not using every means at your disposal to end crap like this wouldn't be in the spirit of humanity

Ah desperate measures needed for the preservation of decent humanity .
That kinda sounds familiar.

Personally I would rather shoot them.

Initially that was the thought of those who last spun that line of yours on the continent , in the end they worked out that gas was much better.

[Beskar]

Nobody said that, that's just silly and avoiding the real issue.

Let's call a spade a spade. It's not about 'safety' or "hygiene'.

No, burka's should be disallowed because they are denigrating for the women wearing them. It's a clothing designed to make women unrecognisable objects and to mark them as inferior beings. Away with the burka, it's a disgrace.

Person's choice. The person should have the choice not to wear them, not necessarily be "banned". However, it should fit in with clothing standards, such as health or safety regulation.

On the other hand, there are certain biniki's being banned because it is clothing designed to make women sexual objects and mark them as inferior beings for a man's pleasure. Away with the bikini, it's a disgrace.

[Fragony]

Foreal?

No of course not.

[HoreTore]

Person's choice. The person should have the choice not to wear them, not necessarily be "banned". However, it should fit in with clothing standards, such as health or safety regulation.

On the other hand, there are certain biniki's being banned because it is clothing designed to make women sexual objects and mark them as inferior beings for a man's pleasure. Away with the bikini, it's a disgrace.

Clothing? That's a secondary issue when it comes to womens rights. The primary issue is economic independence. Without that, none of the other stuff is possible, nor is it even relevant. Without economic independence, the woman remains a slave. You can make her well trained and well dressed, but she will still be a slave.

First get her an income. Then you can worry about all the other stuff.

[rvg]

Clothing? That's a secondary issue when it comes to womens rights. The primary issue is economic independence. Without that, none of the other stuff is possible, nor is it even relevant. Without economic independence, the woman remains a slave. You can make her well trained and well dressed, but she will still be a slave.

First get her an income. Then you can worry about all the other stuff.

Yep. Equal opportunity and equal pay. The rest will follow on its own.

[Fragony]

Clothing? That's a secondary issue when it comes to womens rights. The primary issue is economic independence. Without that, none of the other stuff is possible, nor is it even relevant. Without economic independence, the woman remains a slave. You can make her well trained and well dressed, but she will still be a slave.

First get her an income. Then you can worry about all the other stuff.

Well that isn't a very realistic course of events now is it, why would one hire a blue sack without eyes when one can hire something that resembles a human being.

[rvg]

Well that isn't a very realistic course of events now is it, why would one hire a blue sack without eyes when one can hire something that resembles a human being.

Well, an example would be to service other blue sacks in a blue sack neighborhood. In that case it would totally make sense to hire a blue sack for the job.

[miotas]

This is starting to sound kinky.

I would like to think that qualifications and personal qualities would overcome something as petty as a persons appearance.

[Samurai Waki]

...

What a silly thread.

[Fragony]

Well, an example would be to service other blue sacks in a blue sack neighborhood. In that case it would totally make sense to hire a blue sack for the job.

Doing what. Put it at the garbage with the rest of the trash who can see the difference anyway, it's blue, no eyes, a sack, swoosh bye. I can't believe how you guys are trying to wrap a civilized society around this just to make extreme backwardness more pleasing to the eye.

[Andres]

This is starting to sound kinky.

I would like to think that qualifications and personal qualities would overcome something as petty as a persons appearance.

Well, allthough he worded it "Fragonesque", I kinda agree with Fragony.

An employer won't hire you if you constantly want to wear a burqua.

For some jobs, it's probably just not safe, and in other jobs you have dresscodes (banks, law firms, stores, ...).

So, by insisting to constantly be allowed to wear the burqua, you exclude yourself from many job opportunities. Which also addresses HoreTore's point about being able to get an income.

Welcome in the real world

[miotas]

Well, allthough he worded it "Fragonesque", I kinda agree with Fragony.

An employer won't hire you if you constantly want to wear a burqua.

For some jobs, it's probably just not safe, and in other jobs you have dresscodes (banks, law firms, stores, ...).

So, by insisting to constantly be allowed to wear the burqua, you exclude yourself from many job opportunities. Which also addresses HoreTore's point about being able to get an income.

Welcome in the real world

Of course there are jobs where all that loose clothing would make you unemployable if you insisted on wearing it, and I accept that some companies have dress codes, in much the same way that someone with excessive tats or peircings would stop them getting the said job, but it was their choice, and they didn't get the job

[rvg]

Doing what. Put it at the garbage with the rest of the trash who can see the difference anyway, it's blue, no eyes, a sack, swoosh bye. I can't believe how you guys are trying to wrap a civilized society around this just to make extreme backwardness more pleasing to the eye.

Oh, I'm not making any excuses for wearing a blue sack. From the purely business perspective though, the blue sacks' cash is the same color as yours. Thus, if buying stuff from a store staffed with their fellow blue sacks will cause them to spend more, it only makes sense to staff the store accordingly. *shrug* business is color blind and deity-neutral.

[Andres]

Of course there are jobs where all that loose clothing would make you unemployable if you insisted on wearing it, and I accept that some companies have dress codes, in much the same way that someone with excessive tats or peircings would stop them getting the said job, but it was their choice, and they didn't get the job

Well, probably going a bit off topic here, but if your choice makes it practically impossible to get a job, should you be allowed to get unemployment benefits?

We don't feel pity with the lazy guy who doesn't leave his bed to go looking for a job. How about the religious woman who dresses herself as such that it's impossible for her to get a job. Should she get unemployment benefits?

[Tribesman]

Welcome in the real world

Ah the real world .
So say France where this story is from, it has the staggering amount of about 300 people who wear Burquas, which is a hell of a lot from a population of a paltry 65 million .
If I recall correctly from one of the many Netherlandistan topics about the new Fundamentalist Islamist State of Holland they have about 50 people who wear them.

It really is a big issue isn't it

[Andres]

Ah the real world .
So say France where this story is from, it has the staggering amount of about 300 people who wear Burquas, which is a hell of a lot from a population of a paltry 65 million .
If I recall correctly from one of the many Netherlandistan topics about the new Fundamentalist Islamist State of Holland they have about 50 people who wear them.

It really is a big issue isn't it

When you look at it that way: no, it's a non-issue, like most symbolic issues.

The importance lies in the symbolic value

[rvg]

When you look at it that way: no, it's a non-issue, like most symbolic issues.

The importance lies in the symbolic value

Is there any other way of looking at it?

[Fragony]

business is color blind and deity-neutral.

Yeah sure how much use do you have for this,



No place for her chez Fragony's, I don't want a pityfull creature like that around me they aren't human to me. They have done a great job I have zero pity zero compassion for her dead or alive I don't care because it was never alive anyway. But then again could have been Nada, if she is no thanks to you.

[rvg]

Yeah sure how much use do you have for this,



No place for her chez Fragony's, I don't want a pityfull creature like that around me they aren't human to me. They have done a great job I have zero pity zero compassion for her dead or alive I don't care because it was never alive anyway. But then again could have been Nada, if she is no thanks to you.

Look, nobody is obligating you to hire her. That doesn't mean however that there are no job opportunities for people like her. If some gothapotamus with a bunch of nose rings and tattooed from head to toe can find some sort of employment, then the blue sack is not worse off.

[Fragony]

Look, nobody is obligating you to hire her. That doesn't mean however that there are no job opportunities for people like her. If some gothapotamus with a bunch of nose rings and tattooed from head to toe can find some sort of employment, then the blue sack is not worse off.

I don't see a ringlord being dragged into a machine because he has long sleeves. And I can see neither having a job where they have to deal with people.

[rvg]

I don't see a ringlord being dragged into a machine because he has long sleeves. And I can see neither having a job where they have to deal with people.

Call center is a perfect example of a blue sack-friendly employment. Or network administration.

[miotas]

Actually, rings are terribly dangerous around heavy machinery. My uncle lost the end of his finger becuase he forgot to take off his wedding ring, he's lucky that's all he lost.

[Tribesman]

Look, nobody is obligating you to hire her.

Wouldn't it be funny if that French woman in the article sent a job application to Frag, she would obviously make it past the first hurdle as he only throws job applications straight in the bin if he thinks the name sounds arab .
Poor old Frag might get his legal comeuppance when he actually met her and coundn't keep his bigotry under control.

[Rhyfelwyr]

If you feel the burka or praying 5 times a day gets in the way of them doing a job properly, then of course I don't reckon the government ought to be making you ignore that when it comes to hiring them.

But we are talking about banning any use of a form of dress here, this isn't about their ability to integrate with others this is a private matter. So what if it stops them getting a job, who's going to tell us what's respectable? Tracksuits don't look great at job interviews, maybe all those people on benefits should be banned from wearing them. And those hippies with their long hair, the ought to be made to cut it nice and respectable if they want food coming in. And people shouldn't allowed to be fat, that could be a disadvantage when seeking work. In fact why don't we just have a government approved dress code that will mean nobody has an excuse for not trying to get a job...

[Meneldil]

What the , I am terrified by some people's attitutude in this thread. What right do secular authorities have telling religious people what their beliefs are? Like the example where someone said covering the face is not in the Koran... I'm still pretty sure it's in the hadiths, which is why we don't see Shi'ite Iranian women wearing these veils... then again I could be wrong, which is why we should ask a Muslim and not try to tell them what they believe.

You are, at no point the Kuran specifically states that women should cover their face. It only became an issue with the emergence of islam as a way to create an identity (ie. early 20th).

In any case, you can ask whatever you want to 'muslims', I doubt you'll get any correct answer since every imam has his own ideas about what's correct and what's not, about what's orthodoxy and what's not. You have numerous muslim people claiming that at no point the Prophet asked women to wear veil or anything else, while you have other guys claiming that women shouldn't show any part of their body.

Furthermore, as I stated earlier, the secular authority have all rights to tell people what they should and shouldn't wear. They can believe in any kind of fairy tale crap they want, as long as it stays within the private sphere. The swimming pool is obviously not a private sphere. So goodbye burkas.
It is not, I repeat, it is not a private matter. It is a societal matter. Just like anything that bears some cultural value is not a private matter when you expose it on the public scene. Wearing religious symbols in public has been widely disregarded/prohibited for almost a century in France. Once again, it wasn't only done to discriminate catholics, but also to allow protestant, jews and eastern christians (mostly armenians) to live their religion freely. Said protestants, jews and other religious minorities mostly accepted the new rules with their pro's and con's. Muslims have to realize that, if they want their religion to be protected according to our laws, they have to abid to said laws, even when they don't like it.

As for Louis example, I don't think it works because the laws demanding you cover your private areas are quite reasonable, there's a reason why (most) native peoples living in exotic jungles still go to the trouble of covering them up, its human nature not a cultural thing that anyone is imposing. So as long as you are dressed in such a manner that you won't terrify people, it's up to you.

Seeing a women wearing a burka terrify me, and I'm dead serious. Does that make it a good reason to ban them?

And what is with the "burka's are denigrating to women" argument? So, are we going to liberate these women by telling them what they can and cannot do for their own good? Mummy state knows what is best for you, eh?

Mummy state doesn't know what's best for them, but it knows what's best for society. Allowing this kind of thing to happen is obviously not good for society, and more widely, for women. Once again, I suggest you do some readings on the french concept of laïcité, 1905, and things like that. If you don't like it, fine, nobody asked you to live in France. If they don't like it, they can move to England.

@Fragony. I unfortunately have never heard of a kid wearing a cross at school getting kicked out. You can either blame it on some ethnocentered/racist view (as in, catholics can wear their religious symbols, muslims cannot), or the fact that nobody cares about wearing a cross at school (deeply catholic people go to catholic private schools usually). I've never ever seen anyone wearing a cross, from elementary school to university.