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  1. #1

    Default Re: Big Shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Aulus Caecina Severus View Post
    I was more interested about those low shield values in EB.
    Some units like roman legionary carry a big rectangular "scutum" with 4 of defence....

    However, for game mechanics, shield value count only for attack in front or left(for melee) and become double in front for missile attack(for example roman scutum(4) become 8 for missile attacks from the front)....
    Regarding your first point, I would add Camilian Triariis have a shield value of 4, equal to Principe's and Marian Legionairs. My instinct goes along with your comment: the roman scutum should have a higher defense value than the hoplon. Maybe this would create some unbalance between the combat effectiveness of Legionary and the Hoplite. If that is the case, we could reduce the skill level of the legionary. After all, carrying such a large shield must be cumbersome, but it certainly stops arrows.

    As for the second point, I am not clear how game mechanics work. I thought shields had cero value when attacked from the side or from behind. I vaguely remember hearing shield values were reduced when walking or running. But I am not sure if shield values are ever doubled. Could someone educate us here? Is there a thread with this information elsewhere? Ludus Magna reports his experiments but I could not find the actual formulas there.
    Last edited by Lanceari; 08-13-2009 at 22:49. Reason: too long

  2. #2
    That's "Chopper" to you, bub. Member DaciaJC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Big Shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Epi View Post
    I thought shields had cero value when attacked from the side or from behind.
    As presented in EB, shields are carried in the left hand. Thus, missile attacks from the right or rear of the unit will ignore the shield defense.
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  3. #3
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Big Shields

    To be honest, shouldn't elite units get some sort of shield bonus for being elite? I mean, you're not just hiding behind you're shield unless you're in tight formation. You're like actually using the thing to not die like the noobs are.
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  4. #4
    That's "Chopper" to you, bub. Member DaciaJC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Big Shields

    I very much doubt that any person under fire would be trying to "misuse" their shield. It shouldn't take much training to understand how to properly advance behind a shield while under missile attack.
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  5. #5
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Big Shields

    In formation but what about outside of formation? Besides, big shields are not 100% advantageous since they are cumbersome and obscure your vision if you're blocking or parrying high.
    Last edited by antisocialmunky; 08-14-2009 at 02:20.
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  6. #6
    That's "Chopper" to you, bub. Member DaciaJC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Big Shields

    When facing missiles, the bigger the better, no? Obviously, when in hand-to-hand combat, the ideal shield may not always be the largest, but I don't believe that is the issue here.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Big Shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Epi View Post
    As for the second point, I am not clear how game mechanics work. I thought shields had cero value when attacked from the side or from behind. I vaguely remember hearing shield values were reduced when walking or running. But I am not sure if shield values are ever doubled. Could someone educate us here? Is there a thread with this information elsewhere? Ludus Magna reports his experiments but I could not find the actual formulas there.
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111344
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  8. #8

    Default Big Shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Aulus Caecina Severus View Post
    Thanks, this is very helpful. The pertinent part reads, and I quote:

    [shield] : Unit's shield value, taken into account against both ranged and melee attacks, but only when they come from the front or the left side. Against missiles from the front it offers twice the protection it's value suggests. Measures the blocking capabilities of a unit's shield. Max value is 31 and everything higher will be considered 31.

    ...so the frontal defense value of either a Hoplon or Scutum is 4 x 2 = 8. This should take care of arrows incoming from the front.

    ...but still leaves open the other question raised here: should the Roman Scutum have a higher defense value than the hoplite shield? ...possibly at the expense of a reduction in skill level?

  9. #9
    That's "Chopper" to you, bub. Member DaciaJC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Big Shields

    Hoplitai have 4 shield, same as Roman legionaries.

    EDIT: Sorry, my mistake. I mis-read your question.
    Last edited by DaciaJC; 08-14-2009 at 17:45.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Big Shields

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontline1944 View Post
    Hoplitai have 4 shield, same as Roman legionaries.
    This is the true mistake
    Oplon ISN T Scutum
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  11. #11
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Big Shields

    Aspis covers eyes to knees and shins are covered by greeves. Scutum covers eyes to ankles and you cover the leading leg with a greeve.

    Its comperable.
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  12. #12
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Big Shields

    AFAIK the diameter of the aspis was pretty variable actually; I was recently looking through the assorted Osprey books dealing with hoplites, and the pictorial sources seem to suggest everything from "shoulder to hip" to "shoulder to knee", with "shoulder to mid-thigh" seeming to be about the most common...
    'Course, it's not like you couldn't adjust the height of your stance behind it for greater coverage as necessary anyway.

    Anyway, AFAIK most incarnations of the scutum are not only more covering, but the whole thing is also *much* more robustly constructed - what with triple plywood plus hide covering as opposed to single-planked dome stressed with a cover of half-millimeter bronze. But 4 is the highest the shields go (the special rules of the pikemen nonwithstanding) in the statting system I was handed so meh, plus given that the actual construction of most units' shields is kind of a big question mark (or in any case I couldn't be bothered to try tracking down the details for all the several hundred of the lot) it was pretty much ignored and the value allocation done nigh entirely based on the size of the shields.
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  13. #13

    Default Big Shields

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    Aspis covers eyes to knees and shins are covered by greeves. Scutum covers eyes to ankles and you cover the leading leg with a greeve.

    Its comperable.
    Greek Levy Hoplites do not wear greaves and some of the other armor... Yet, they have a Shield Rating of 4, same as Rorariis and, same as Classical Hoplites. If the shield value is supposed to include the value of this armor, Greek Levy Hoplites should have a lower Shield Rating than Classical Hoplites (which wear more armor). Yet they have the same Shield Rating.

    I understand, Armor is represented by the Armor Rating assigned to the unit. If so, a unit wearing more armor should have a higher Armor Rating, not a higher Shield Rating.

    On the other hand, I understand heavy and cumbersome equipment should reduce the weapons skill level of a soldier. There is no free lunch. A larger shield offers better protection but it is heavy and cumbersome. The challenge is how model this trade off in a game.

  14. #14
    urk! Member bobbin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Big Shields

    Given that the Scutum was bigger they probably should but i'm sure the EB team has a good reason.

    If watchman is kicking around he could probably answer for you as he did the stats for EB.
    Last edited by bobbin; 08-15-2009 at 09:06.


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