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  1. #1
    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: To start and lead a "SUCCESSFUL" revolution...

    Meneldil Now, one can discuss whether or not the French revolution was successful. Even though it led to a - benevolent - dictatorship and to a return of the monarchy after 1815, it did a good job of exporting the ideas of the Enlightenment in Europe and of strengthening them in France.

    I would say that Napoleon's rule was anything but benevolent. His rigging of electoral results, control of the media, repression of the intelligentsia, mass murder of religious and political opponents (through his minister of police Fouche) are but a few of many such examples. This is not to mention a penchant for loot that made Hermann Goering look like a petty shop lifter. Enlightened he may have been, even progressive in many ways, but he was still a thug, something akin to a mafioso don.
    Last edited by rotorgun; 08-15-2009 at 05:45.
    Rotorgun
    ...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
    Onasander

    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

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    Member Megas Methuselah's Avatar
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    Default Re: To start and lead a "SUCCESSFUL" revolution...

    Quote Originally Posted by rotorgun View Post
    ...but he was still a thug, something akin to a mafioso don.
    No! He's my hero!

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    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: To start and lead a "SUCCESSFUL" revolution...

    Quote Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah View Post
    No! He's my hero!
    Well he did at least leave us the Napoleonic Code, still in use in French law today. I do give him grudging admiration as a soldier. Alas, we are diverging from the intent of the thread. The independence movement of India as led by Gandhi is a fascinating example of what was needed for a successful revolution; repressive rule there, and exploitation of the people were the main factors which drove the Hindi to revolt against their British overlords. There was also a great cultural divide to further the cause.
    Rotorgun
    ...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
    Onasander

    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: To start and lead a "SUCCESSFUL" revolution...

    I am not a Napoleon fan, however:

    I would say that Napoleon's rule was anything but benevolent.
    His rigging of electoral results
    (what elections?)
    Control of the media, repression of the intelligentsia: Any difference with the Regimes in UK, Russia, Prussia, Spain?
    Mass murder of religious: Er, he is the guy you signed the Concordat with Rome, resolving the Religious problem in France.
    and political opponents (through his minister of police Fouche) are but a few of many such examples. No political mass Murder as far as I know. One crime against the Duc d’Angien but for what I remember, Napoleon escaped few attempt of murder (e.g. from Cadoudal) and no massive reprisal on the Vendee populations happened…

    This is not to mention a penchant for loot that made Hermann Goering look like a petty shop lifter. Again, I fail to see any difference with others regimes of the times, where spoils of war were quite a normal way to do war and to reward your armies…

    Enlightened he may have been, even progressive in many ways, but he was still a thug, something akin to a mafioso don. That is the Corsican side…

    To succeed a Revolution you need a good pre-revolution situation: Popular dissatisfaction and some unrest, a weak opponent, a population able to take arms...
    It is a sensitive alchemy...
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

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    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: To start and lead a "SUCCESSFUL" revolution...

    His rigging of electoral results: Don't you think it odd that Napoleon won 99.9993 % of the national plebiscite to decide on his becoming Emperor on November 6th, 1804- 3,572,329 for to 2,569 against? Napoleon, as first council controlled the armed forces, police, press, publishing, and the theater. There was no independent means for anyone to challenge such a statistical impossibility.

    Control of the media, repression of the intelligentsia: If there was no difference with other contemporary regimes, than what was Libertie, Egalatie, Fraternitie all about? He certainly presented himself to the French people as a protector of these principles.

    mass murder of religious and political opponents (through his minister of police Fouche): I stand corrected on that one. The Massacre of Lyons perpetuated by Fouche against Catholics, all in the name of the revolution, was actually committed while he served under Robespierre. The fact that Napoleon used such a man to his own ends speaks of his true nature...a man of few moral scruples. Fouche used over 900,000 Lvr. of stolen Police Ministry funds to aid Napoleon in his plan to seize the consulate.

    This is not to mention a penchant for loot...: Agreed that loot was a normal way to reward your armies and was the right of the victor, but this even extended to the people of France. He was not beyond extorting the national bank to fund his own personal projects, or those of his family, money that was often diverted from the military.

    I would suggest a reading of Napoleon Bonaparte by Alan Schom. He writes rather critically of him, and I learned many things I didn't know from all those biographies which gloss over much of the darker side of Bonaparte's reign. Most concentrate on his genius, which was remarkable.
    Last edited by rotorgun; 08-17-2009 at 03:17.
    Rotorgun
    ...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
    Onasander

    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

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    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: To start and lead a "SUCCESSFUL" revolution...

    Like i said something to unify the people. And hate is unfortunately very effective at doing such.

    French Revolution- The Aristocrats
    Iranian Revolution- Western Imperialism and the Shah
    American Revolution- To a lesser extent the British
    Russian Revolution- White Russia
    Nazi's- Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, etc.

    I could go on and on and on

  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: To start and lead a "SUCCESSFUL" revolution...

    national plebiscitePlebiscite, not election. And it was far from a general electorate but censitaire (based on the cens, a tax on lands and property) and male population.

    Napoleon was a dictator, no doubt but no more no less than all the others rulers in Europe.

    He certainly presented himself to the French people as a protector of these principles.” “Presented himself” is the key. He was much better than Louis XIV or the XV, but his thrust for absolute power was the same.
    All Eastern Countries were Democratic in the title...

    The Massacre of Lyons perpetuated by Fouche against Catholics, all in the name of the revolution, was actually committed while he served under Robespierre

    Yes, but Napoleon wasn’t involve in it. It was during one of the civil wars that France is keen on, Federalists against Centralist (not against the Catholic, which in France were around probably 95 % at the times. You probably refer to the Vendee and Chouans rebellions which started with the clergy having to sworn allegiance to the Republic (les Jureurs) but was more importantly against la levee en Masse, the raise of 150 000 conscripts)…
    Napoleon was friend was Robespierre’s brother, but this event can’t be held against him.

    And Fouché served under the King as well... Not long but did. So is Louis the XVIII aswell guilty for Lyon misfortune...
    Last edited by Brenus; 08-18-2009 at 20:48. Reason: sp
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

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