Europe

[LittleGrizzly]

Typical Imperialist, off to a less developed country to pluder thier natural resources and make use of the locals

I don't hugely disagree with anything either of you (frunc and louis) there is a lot of common ground across Europe but then there are differences across the place to, you can somewhat feel the differences place to place even just in the people but then I don't think the differences are that much bigger across europe than they are across individual countrys...

Glad we could come to some kind of middle ground!

Ohh and I do like football, the reference was to my support of Man Utd whereas Louis supports some unimportant French team

[rvg]

E.U. needs someone to unify it. Someone like George W. Bush. Unknowingly, that man did more to unify the E.U. than any European politician.

[LittleGrizzly]

I think he did a lot for the Euro cause in Britian, I think some Brits generally see the UK as having 2 choices. 1) follow America 2) follow/lead/work with Europe.

I think 1) was the dominant philosphy for Britians until Bush's time, not that 2) is now dominant just 1) doesn't seem to have its lead anymore..

For now both 1 and 2 are unpopular...

This is based on my opinion of viewing events over the last few years rather than any statistics... so i could be wrong...

[Vladimir]

I think he did a lot for the Euro cause in Britian, I think some Brits generally see the UK as having 2 choices. 1) follow America 2) follow/lead/work with Europe.

I think 1) was the dominant philosphy for Britians until Bush's time, not that 2) is now dominant just 1) doesn't seem to have its lead anymore..

For now both 1 and 2 are unpopular...

This is based on my opinion of viewing events over the last few years rather than any statistics... so i could be wrong...

No, you are not wrong. This is the backroom. Everyone else is wrong.

[Furunculus]

Typical Imperialist, off to a less developed country to pluder thier natural resources and make use of the locals

I don't hugely disagree with anything either of you (frunc and louis) there is a lot of common ground across Europe but then there are differences across the place to, you can somewhat feel the differences place to place even just in the people but then I don't think the differences are that much bigger across europe than they are across individual countrys...

Glad we could come to some kind of middle ground!

Ohh and I do like football, the reference was to my support of Man Utd whereas Louis supports some unimportant French team

quite the opposite, i was un unpaid menial labourer of which i will give proof in the frontroom later on.

on a related note, having spent two days in southern poland and witnessing the divided society resulting from 500+ years of continental border carve-ups i have the following observations:

1. The EU is a very good thing, as so many border peoples of continental nations like poland are defined by their opposition to their neighbours, a divisive stand than is not conducive to harmony.

2. People realise this and thus the enthusiasm for the EU, i can even sympathise with the view of some that more EU (read: federation) = better chance for peace and harmony. This is not a popular view in poland, and i disagree with it anyway, but i can at least sympathise with it having seen the stark cultural divisions in the country surrounding and including Opolle.

3. This is still irrelevant to the UK. not the EU bit, for what the EU has been is fine, merely the federal future, as there simply doesn't exist the same tension.

[Louis VI the Fat]

1. The EU is a very good thing, as so many border peoples of continental nations [..] are defined by their opposition to their neighbours, a divisive stand than is not conducive to harmony.

2.

3. This is still irrelevant to the UK.

Ah, so you've seen 'continental border peoples' firsthand. Did you spot any other game while there? The Big Five perhaps? Was there good bird-spotting?


Or, to put it differently, maybe I should discuss Britain, not the EU. Because I think you have some fantastical, non-existing Britain in your head. On which illusion you base your allergy to the EU. An illusory Britain. A monolitic, militaristic, colonising, massive world power at the heart of a globe-spanning Anglo-Empire.

May I be so bold as to stay with the safari theme and wonder if maybe during your youth in Malawi you developed these ideas? Read too much Cecil Rhodes perhaps? Stuck in a place where it is '1900' forever, with dreams of colony, Empire, queen Victoria?


The Empire is gone, mate. Your Britain does not exist. It is also commonly accepted among many Britons nowadays that the Europeans are closely related to the British. And may, in fact, be a member of the same species.

For example, the British Isles are full of border peoples. Just like in the rest of Europe. As a matter of fact, the UK is still emerging from a rather brutal civil war that lasted roughly until last decade. There is devolution everywhere. Frustration towards the SouthEast. Regional identities are on the rise.
There is Protestant vs Catholic, Celtic vs Anglo, Scotland vs England, the Irish question. These have been some of the 'divise stands not conducive to harmony' that have plagued your Isles for, oh let's say, the last one thousand years.
So 'irrelevant to the UK?' No, it is as relevant to Britain as it is elsewhere in Europe. Britain is not an island, it is full of divisions, and differs not from the rest of our continent in this regard.

[Tribesman]

May I be so bold as to stay with the safari theme and wonder if maybe during your youth in Malawi you developed these ideas? Read too much Cecil Rhodes perhaps? Stuck in a place where it is '1900' forever, with dreams of colony, Empire, queen Victoria?

Don't be so silly Louis, it would have to be pre 1900 because at that time a bunch of uppity Dutch farmers were making the mighty empire look pretty pathetic.

[Furunculus]

Don't be so silly Louis, it would have to be pre 1900 because at that time a bunch of uppity Dutch farmers were making the mighty empire look pretty pathetic.

^ valueless trolling non-contribution ^

[Tribesman]

^ valueless trolling non-contribution ^

Attacking your views is not valueless or trolling , your views of the mythical Britain exist only in your head .

[Furunculus]

1. The EU is a very good thing, as so many border peoples of continental nations like poland are defined by their opposition to their neighbours, a divisive stand than is not conducive to harmony.

2. People realise this and thus the enthusiasm for the EU, i can even sympathise with the view of some that more EU (read: federation) = better chance for peace and harmony. This is not a popular view in poland, and i disagree with it anyway, but i can at least sympathise with it having seen the stark cultural divisions in the country surrounding and including Opolle.

3. This is still irrelevant to the UK. not the EU bit, for what the EU has been is fine, merely the federal future, as there simply doesn't exist the same tension.

1. Ah, so you've seen 'continental border peoples' firsthand. Did you spot any other game while there? The Big Five perhaps? Was there good bird-spotting?

2. Or, to put it differently, maybe I should discuss Britain, not the EU. Because I think you have some fantastical, non-existing Britain in your head. On which illusion you base your allergy to the EU. An illusory Britain. A monolitic, militaristic, colonising, massive world power at the heart of a globe-spanning Anglo-Empire.

3. May I be so bold as to stay with the safari theme and wonder if maybe during your youth in Malawi you developed these ideas? Read too much Cecil Rhodes perhaps? Stuck in a place where it is '1900' forever, with dreams of colony, Empire, queen Victoria?

4. The Empire is gone, mate. Your Britain does not exist. It is also commonly accepted among many Britons nowadays that the Europeans are closely related to the British. And may, in fact, be a member of the same species.

5. For example, the British Isles are full of border peoples. Just like in the rest of Europe. As a matter of fact, the UK is still emerging from a rather brutal civil war that lasted roughly until last decade. There is devolution everywhere. Frustration towards the SouthEast. Regional identities are on the rise.
There is Protestant vs Catholic, Celtic vs Anglo, Scotland vs England, the Irish question. These have been some of the 'divise stands not conducive to harmony' that have plagued your Isles for, oh let's say, the last one thousand years.
So 'irrelevant to the UK?' No, it is as relevant to Britain as it is elsewhere in Europe. Britain is not an island, it is full of divisions, and differs not from the rest of our continent in this regard.

1. The big five?

2. Louis, i gave a very reasoned response to your previous post before i left on holiday, quite where you have this idea of me i do not know.

3. No my time in africa led me to appreciate that living under tyranny is a bad thing, and that if you want to really help africa then give africans the skills to manage the own affairs and access to our markets rather than heaping gift-aid toys upon them whilst keeping them locked in their own little economic cage.

4. I know this Louis, and i don't regret it. I also appreciate that you too are a human being, just like the rest of johnny foreigner, after all i am going out with one, however, as discussed with you in my previous response i believe that for britain the nation state remains the most advantageous pinnacle of governance.

5. There is devolution everywhere, hey i hadn't noticed, and you are obviously oblivious to the fact that i am a fan of de-centralisation. How does a federal EU improve this situation for the UK? The relevance to the border 'peoples' of continental europe is that hopefully the festering sores of the 20th century resulting from bloody conquest being repeatedly thrust upon them will hopefully not be revisited in the 21st century, something that has been refreshingly absent from the UK for some hundreds of years.

[Louis VI the Fat]

1. The big five?

Oooh! Now you dissapoint me, you silly colonial, Cecil Rhodes is turning in his grave! The 'Big Five': Lion, Leopard, Rhinoceros, Buffalo, Elephant. (I think it was...)

I picked up on that back when I dated one of you colonials deep in the heart of Africa. So funny, a bit of retro-Britain in the heart of the dark continent. Tea at four, cricket in the afternoon, and a stiff upper lip maintained throughout, no matter what hardship was thrown at them by the harsh climate, the natives, or pesky me.


After re-reading my previous post, I think that my wording left a lot to be desired. Ligh-hearted irony was the intention, not harsh sarcasm. Sorry.

In Eastern Europe, division along etnic/religious/linguistic/historical lines is more pronounced than in the western part. This, I think, you got a taste of in Poland. Within in the west, I really do not think there is all that much difference between sectarianism in the British Isles or in Belgium, Spain or elsewhere. Whether the EU is a solution to many ancient plagues of Europe is a matter of debate. I myself, of course, think it is.
What is more seldomly argued however, is that sectarianism is 'irrelevant' to the British Isles or Britain itself. It can be witnessed from the Old Firm down to the twentienth century history of the Emerald Isle.

[Furunculus]

Oooh! Now you dissapoint me, you silly colonial, Cecil Rhodes is turning in his grave! The 'Big Five': Lion, Leopard, Rhinoceros, Buffalo, Elephant. (I think it was...)

I picked up on that back when I dated one of you colonials deep in the heart of Africa. So funny, a bit of retro-Britain in the heart of the dark continent. Tea at four, cricket in the afternoon, and a stiff upper lip maintained throughout, no matter what hardship was thrown at them by the harsh climate, the natives, or pesky me.

After re-reading my previous post, I think that my wording left a lot to be desired. Light-hearted irony was the intention, not harsh sarcasm. Sorry.

In Eastern Europe, division along etnic/religious/linguistic/historical lines is more pronounced than in the western part. This, I think, you got a taste of in Poland. Within in the west, I really do not think there is all that much difference between sectarianism in the British Isles or in Belgium, Spain or elsewhere. Whether the EU is a solution to many ancient plagues of Europe is a matter of debate. I myself, of course, think it is.
What is more seldomly argued however, is that sectarianism is 'irrelevant' to the British Isles or Britain itself. It can be witnessed from the Old Firm down to the twentienth century history of the Emerald Isle.

Ah, my hunting experience is exclusively British & Polish, my bad.

The bit of Malawi where i lived was specifically designed to replicate a 1920's public school, which was more than a little odd to the hippy generation of teachers that worked there in the 80's. However, it was far from being a piece of little-england-in-spain expat mentality, rather it was a place of intense learning that turned kids who'd never seen a toilet into the future generation of of educated and professional administrators. When we arrived the school was taught by a faculty that 95% white english, today it is 95% black Malawian. That is REAL development success created by my father of which he is rightly proud. A bit OT i know, but since you brought it up my african past i thought i should enlighten you.

NP.

I accept the point about NI, but it is the exception rather than the rule.
More importantly, much of the discord i have witnessed in places like Poland results from war between nations, which is precisely why bonding transnational institutions like the EU are such a good idea, and why a federal EU may have more appeal, however this has historically not been a problem for Britain, so there is less of an impetus for ever-deeper-union.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The bit of Malawi where i lived was specifically designed to replicate a 1920's public school, which was more than a little odd to the hippy generation of teachers that worked there in the 80's. However, it was far from being a piece of little-england-in-spain expat mentality, rather it was a place of intense learning that turned kids who'd never seen a toilet into the future generation of of educated and professional administrators. When we arrived the school was taught by a faculty that 95% white english, today it is 95% black Malawian. That is REAL development success created by my father of which he is rightly proud. A bit OT i know, but since you brought it up my african past i thought i should enlighten you.

The British presence in Africa has had many benefits. A blessing as often as a curse.


Here's hoping the British Conservatives will be as succesful in educating and civilizing the Polish and Latvian natives! (And please not the other way round...)

[Tribesman]

What it is to be British....

"Firebombing is not a British method. A brick through the window is a British method, but firebombing is not a way of showing displeasure,"

....
wierd eh , but that crowd are big on defence of the soveriegn realm and values of a shared culture created by 1000 years of history.

[Furunculus]

que?