And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee

[Lemur]

“R. Heinlen wrote the book he was dead serious” Was he? How do you reconcile Star ship Troopers with e.g. “in a Foreign Land” (where Heinlein became a hippy guru) or “Friday”?

First of all, Friday was post-brain-tumor, when Heinlen's writing, speaking and thinking took a noticeable turn for the ... different.

As for Starship Troopers, I'm basing my opinion on Heinlen's own speeches and essays. Here's a summary that will getcha started.

And yeah, in the middle of a period when Heinlen was taking a strong swing to the right, he also wrote Stranger in a Strange Land, which was adopted as a hippie bible. "Do I contradict myself? Then I contradict myself. I am large, and contain multitudes."

If we take this any further we should start a thread in the Frontroom.

To make this vaguely on-topic:

PVC, I disagree strongly with your premise that the Jews' claim to be "chosen people" has led to pogroms, genocides and ethnic cleansings. As Hooahguy correctly points out, most every religion claims to have the "only" answer, which means such claims are silly or a LOT of people are going to hell.

Rather, I think the hostility has arisen from a much simpler impulse: Any group that maintains its ethnic and linguistic identity and does not integrate with the society in which it resides excites hostility. Note the European treatment of gypsies, or the Turkish treatment of Armenians, or the American treatment of Native Americans, etc., etc., etc.

You can find hundreds of examples. Any group that does not visibly integrate is suspect, and vulnerable to populist/nativist anger. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

um no. no no no no no no no no
nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
there, was that enough to get it into your head?
first off, let me just say, doesnt pretty much every religion have a "holier than thou" attitude towards others?
its not unique.
you clearly have no realization what you just justified with that post. you just justified every jew-hater in history.

I didn't justify anything. So, don't get so tetchy. You claimed a God-given right for your people to something that belonged to someone else. If you are offended by my assertion I strongly suggest you consider how a Palastinian doctor/shop keeper etc. in Jerusalem would have felt in 1948, to be told that God wanted him to up sticks and make way for someone else.

After all, given that I don't believe hatred, killing etc. are ever right I would never justify them; however, there are reasons things happen.

PVC, I disagree strongly with your premise that the Jews' claim to be "chosen people" has led to pogroms, genocides and ethnic cleansings. As Hooahguy correctly points out, most every religion claims to have the "only" answer, which means such claims are silly or a LOT of people are going to hell.

Rather, I think the hostility has arisen from a much simpler impulse: Any group that maintains its ethnic and linguistic identity and does not integrate with the society in which it resides excites hostility. Note the European treatment of gypsies, or the Turkish treatment of Armenians, or the American treatment of Native Americans, etc., etc., etc.

You can find hundreds of examples. Any group that does not visibly integrate is suspect, and vulnerable to populist/nativist anger. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.

I think it was a combination of factors that caused the persistant and violent treatment of the Jews. The theological outlook of the day, while brutal, is not illogical within its frame of reference, the positions Jews were forced into by law were bound to engender hatred and suspicion as well.

At the same time, in order to understand the history of the Jews in Europe one must confront two uncomfortable facts.

1. They proundly claimed descent from the same people credited with executing what the majority of the population believed was the greatest saviour and gift mankind would ever recieve.

2. They held themselves apart as a people chosen by God.

It is one thing to have an "us or them" mentality with religion, it is something entirely different to claim a special relationship with the one God based on race.

The fact is, and this is inescapable, Jews have been persecuted more than any other people since the fall of Rome. To suggest the reasons for this are the same as other persecutions is wilful.

[Hooahguy]

EDIT: this has gone too far. we need to stop this, and this thread. all its doing is making tempers rise. at least on my side.

[rotorgun]

I apologize for not getting back to the debate sooner, and is it a good one! First, Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla, you make some good points in that much of the historical basis for the existence for Israel is based on some rather slim evidence. You are right in that the events of so long ago hold little relevance to the current situation. Really, the roots of this conflict were sown during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. I was only trying to point out that the existence of ancient Israel is an accepted part of history. The main troubles between the "Palestinians" , a group whose ethnic history is quite diverse, but whose principal ties are Islam, therefore Arabic, and the "Israelis" began in 1866. A group of Arab Palestinians, disgruntled over a land purchase by some recent Jewish immigrants, attacked them. Soon thereafter, a Jewish woman was killed in a skirmish between another group of Arabs and Jews. This was the first documented clash between Palestinians and Jews.

Later, in around 1913 or so, clashes took place between Arab and Jew over land again. The Ottoman Caliph had been allowing immigrants, many of which were Jewish, to legally purchase land in Palestine. The number of Jews was but a fraction of the Muslim population, but the land purchases were causing concern among the Arabic peoples. Aside from the fact that the Jewish immigrants had turned much of the land into prosperous farms, the truth remains that they were legal purchases. In 1914, the Caliph banned the sale of land to immigrants, but the corruption of the regime allowed them to take place anyway. This was, and still is the real root of the problem-the land and who legally owns it.

We all know what happened in 1948 and the events proceeding it. The way it was handled was an international disgrace for which the UN bears the brunt of the blame. Had it intervened, perhaps the whole thing may have turned out differently. It is what happened afterward that surprised the world. The Jews fought off a coalition of well equipped Pan Arabic armies, and established its independent right to exist. It has merely done what any group of people would do if faced with annihilation-fight for survival. In the process, I agree that Israel has been guilty of racial and religious prejudice in their dealings with the primarily Muslim Palestinians. What has been the role of the Islamic nations in helping these people? Nothing much except to continue to fuel the fires of hatred and discord. Yes, the US has provided military and monetary support to Israel. Has it not also attempted to help bring peace? Other than Egypt, for which Anwar Sadat paid with his life (May the blessings of Allah be upon his soul!), which Islamic, or Muslim, or Arabic, or Persian nation has really attempted to help bring peace?

The answer to peace is simple and written in the Bible. First remove the beam that is in your own eye, then you may see clearly enough to remove the mote that is in your neighbor's. One may quote, Forgive thine enemy, and pray for those who persecute you. I am sure that forgiveness is a part of the better concepts of the Torah and the Koran as well. One meaningful act of Israel toward peace may be all that is needed, but can the militant extremists on either side put down their weapons for that one time?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Purged at Hooah's request.

To be honest, I'm not sure how angry I am.

[Hooahguy]

purged for the good of the thread.

[rotorgun]

Those were the acts of two very humble gentlemen. Please let's continue our intellectual debate. I, for one highly value your considered opinions. Let us not let our passions be the undoing of a needed debate.

[Lemur]

1. They proundly claimed descent from the same people credited with executing what the majority of the population believed was the greatest saviour and gift mankind would ever recieve.

So the Jews claim to be descended from the Romans? 'Cause last I checked, it was legionaries who did the executing, not the Pharisees.

2. They held themselves apart as a people chosen by God.

As do the Amish. As do the Mormons. As do the Brahmins. I fail to see how the Jewish claim is more provocative than the average religious exclusion. Yes, Judaism is weird because it is both an ethnicity and a religion, but it's not extremely weird. Far less offensive than the Hindu caste system. Why haven't there been pogroms and genocides directed at the Hindu Brahmins? Oh, right, 'cause they're in their own society, in which they are integrated.

The fact is, and this is inescapable, Jews have been persecuted more than any other people since the fall of Rome. To suggest the reasons for this are the same as other persecutions is wilful.

Oh, Jews got a pretty raw deal during the Roman Empire as well as after. See diaspora for reference. However, with that understood, the Jews have hardly been alone in being the subject of ethnic cleansing, and I don't think their position is unique or exceptional. The gypsies were put in the ovens alongside the Jews during the Third Reich, and the first industrial genocide was of Armenians, not Jews. And why were the Congolese wiped out in their millions by the Belgians? No Congolese ever said they were the chosen people, did they?

Mormons believe they are a chosen elect, and they got pounded, lynched and shot until they integrated. Now they embrace the American dream more fervently than the majority of non-Mormons. There's a lesson in that, and it goes back to my original point: Ethnic/religious groups that do not integrate are at risk. Always have been, always will be.

[Samurai Waki]

Native Americans also got a pretty raw deal in the genocide dept. it wasn't industrial like the Third Reich, but there was little difference in overall intent. It was only until after Custer, that the killing slowed, and "re-education" programs began, and actually, ended, later than the holocaust.

[Brenus]

Let’s see for another point: Why when I was young (long time ago) I was pro-Israeli and anti Palestinian: I knew every thing about the Haganah, Irgun and even the Stern. Israel was the land of the heroes who survived the holocaust and were building a land of justice.
The coalition of the Arabs world makes again David fighting Goliath once again…
We just forgot that Goliath was right. It was his land. He succumb against a better trained David armed with a weapon he didn’t expect…

The Palestinians abandoned and used by the Arabs world were the last badies: Munich, the hostages taken, the attacks and bombs in the streets on Jews, and the last Entebbe raid just prolonged the disdain for them and the admiration for Tsahal.

Why did I change my point of view? Because the disdain of Israel for the Palestinian.
I do accept Israel never to give up the Golan, but the expectation from Israel for Palestinian to be slaves and kept in ghetto, where they controlled every aspect of the Palestinian life is unacceptable.

The heirs of the Warsaw ghetto became themselves guars of a ghetto. With the body armours of their soldiers, the Israelis build a mental fortress as the guard of the biggest jail every made.
They can claim to be offended by the comparison but the truth is they are now on the oppressor side. Because if thou gaze long….

[Hooahguy]

one hole:
contradicting public opinion, the israelis didnt force palestinians en masse into Gaza. sorry to break the news.
only when the palestinians began sending rockets and attacking israelis did the israelis begin to blockade gaza.

oh yes, and about Goliath: goliath and the phillistines were attacking israel. not the other way around. israel, in defense, phillistines in offense. so to answer you, the answer is nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!

yeah... sorry bout that. im kinda obsessed with "Zero Punctuation."

by the way, did no one read my article that demolishes the theory that israel is getting more violent?
guess not.

[Idaho]

one hole:
contradicting public opinion, the israelis didnt force palestinians en masse into Gaza. sorry to break the news.

The ethnic cleansing of arab towns and villages after the declaration of the state of Israel is a matter of public record. The official Israeli records themselves attest to it. Forced marches, burnt villages, mass executions.
couldn't find the right source - but this gives the details


As for modern Israelis being owed the land of their 'forefathers' - there is a now recent dna evidence that suggests that ashkenazic jews (who make up the majority of Israeli Jews) are in fact of Asian/Khazar origin and not from the middle east. The sephardic jews are most likely the decendants of the original Israelis.
source

There is also a significant body of thought that discounts the scientific veracity of biblical sources and by using archeological evidence suggests the ancient state of Israel was in fact much smaller than the current state of Israel.
source

I don't know why I bother with the reasoned response - I have this vain hope that people will respond to logic.

[Hooahguy]

The ethnic cleansing of arab towns and villages after the declaration of the state of Israel is a matter of public record. The official Israeli records themselves attest to it. Forced marches, burnt villages, mass executions.
couldn't find the right source - but this gives the details

pssshhhh thats just another one of those heavily biased site.
most of you "ethnic cleansing" conspirators are just blocwing a lot of hot air.

As for modern Israelis being owed the land of their 'forefathers' - there is a now recent dna evidence that suggests that ashkenazic jews (who make up the majority of Israeli Jews) are in fact of Asian/Khazar origin and not from the middle east. The sephardic jews are most likely the decendants of the original Israelis.

so what? all are jews, just the same.

There is also a significant body of thought that discounts the scientific veracity of biblical sources and by using archeological evidence suggests the ancient state of Israel was in fact much smaller than the current state of Israel.
source

map

[Tribesman]

pssshhhh thats just another one of those heavily biased site.
most of you "ethnic cleansing" conspirators are just blocwing a lot of hot air.

Yes we would need to link the records of the Knesset to be unbiased for Hooah plus lots of studies from Israeli sources, perhaps loads of quotes from former and current Israeli MKs just for good measure.
So are you up for it Hooah , its only a simple question , one really simple question ....do you want to try and challenge the fact that Israel has a long history of policies directed at ethnicly cleansing the non-jewish population of territory it claims, that those policies are ongoing...and that those policies even predate the founding of the state.
Or are you just blowing hot air?

so what? all are jews, just the same.

Tell that to the errrrr.....Jews ,remember according to the real true zionists you ain't even Jewish hooah.

[Hooahguy]

i wont even dignify that with a full response.

[Brenus]

"oh yes, and about Goliath: goliath and the phillistines were attacking israel" Er, I am not a specialist in the Bible propagenda, however I do remember that the Israelis came from Egypt under the pretext that their God gave the lands to them. Well.... So the Philistines were defending their lands.
The Russian taking back Minsk was not an attack against Germans, if you want a more recent exemple.

[Hooahguy]

once we start calling everything we dont agree with "propaganda" this debate is over. im done. no point arguing anymore.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Tell that to the errrrr.....Jews ,remember according to the real true zionists you ain't even Jewish hooah.

I want to reclaim my place in Israel, after all, remember Jeremiah came over to Ireland to establish a dynasty with the lost tribe of Judah, and they used the Stone of Destiny which has since been used by the Scottish kings since the Ulster Scots came over. That's why the red hand is in a star of David after all. In fact, Tribesman is Irish, maybe he could become a zionist?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Tribesman]

i wont even dignify that with a full response.

How is your brother looking forward to getting on with his racist teacher come September ?

"oh yes, and about Goliath: goliath and the phillistines were attacking israel" Er, I am not a specialist in the Bible propagenda, however I do remember that the Israelis came from Egypt under the pretext that their God gave the lands to them. Well.... So the Philistines were defending their lands.

Well if you want to go down that road of Saul and David with the Phillistines why mot take a turn to the real big ethnic cleansing of the story ,the genocide....but it was a good genocide because god told them to do it

[Hooahguy]

How is your brother looking forward to getting on with his racist teacher come September ?

hes not happy.
we're still waiting for a response from the school district, thanks for asking.

[Tribesman]

In fact, Tribesman is Irish, maybe he could become a zionist?

Hey why not , I could become the second Irish President of Israel

[Brenus]

“ The big ethnic cleansing of the story ,the genocide....but it was a good genocide because god told them to do it”
Because I don’t apply modern concept on ancient History? Do you speak of Jericho?

[Tribesman]

No thats the ethnic cleansing of the Canaanites , I meant the genocide of the Amalekites.

[Brenus]

“propaganda” : Well, the bible was written by the Jews, for the Jews about the Jewish point of view… So as such it is propaganda, showing the strength and the courage of the Jewish warriors. And the story of Goliath is one of the exemple.

“I meant the genocide of the Amalekites.” You lost me here, I will have to do researches.
Thanks

“no point arguing anymore.” As you wish.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So the Jews claim to be descended from the Romans? 'Cause last I checked, it was legionaries who did the executing, not the Pharisees.

He was arrested by jews, tried by Jews, and delivered up to Pilate by a Jewish mob chanting "crucify him". In Acts and the Gospels the blame is placed upon the Jews, or at least some of them.

Last I checked, consensus was that the Jewish elders and Romans were both culpable, and the conclusion of Vatican II was, let's face it, an act of political rebalancing.

The ethnic cleansing of arab towns and villages after the declaration of the state of Israel is a matter of public record. The official Israeli records themselves attest to it. Forced marches, burnt villages, mass executions.
couldn't find the right source - but this gives the details


As for modern Israelis being owed the land of their 'forefathers' - there is a now recent dna evidence that suggests that ashkenazic jews (who make up the majority of Israeli Jews) are in fact of Asian/Khazar origin and not from the middle east. The sephardic jews are most likely the decendants of the original Israelis.
source

There is also a significant body of thought that discounts the scientific veracity of biblical sources and by using archeological evidence suggests the ancient state of Israel was in fact much smaller than the current state of Israel.
source

I don't know why I bother with the reasoned response - I have this vain hope that people will respond to logic.

Interesting, I didn't know about ethnicity of the ashkenazic Jews.

pssshhhh thats just another one of those heavily biased site.
most of you "ethnic cleansing" conspirators are just blocwing a lot of hot air.

so what? all are jews, just the same.

map

If you want to believe a purely Biblical version, which stands against all other evidence, you can. However, if you base your actions on that you won't get much support.

Even assuming we buy that God granted the Biblical Jews the land of Caanan etc., that does not mean that:

A. The grant has not been withdrwan/is not dormant.

B. That the modern followers of the Jewish religion are automatically the beneficiaries and not, for example, the ethnic decendants of the original Israelites who remained in Roman Palastine.

[Kralizec]

As for modern Israelis being owed the land of their 'forefathers' - there is a now recent dna evidence that suggests that ashkenazic jews (who make up the majority of Israeli Jews) are in fact of Asian/Khazar origin and not from the middle east. The sephardic jews are most likely the decendants of the original Israelis.
source

Interesting subject- I wish I understood what all that talk about haplogroups and whatnot meant (without having to invest time in reading about it)

It doesn't conclude anywhere that the ashkenazi jews are mostly (let alone purely) Khazar, or that they don't share a genetic ancestry with sephardic jews.

From the summary at the end:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

DNA research has also revealed significant genetic links between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jewish populations, despite their separation for generations. With the Cohanim study, researchers found a clear genetic connection between the Jewish priests and a shared Israelite ancestor from the past. Additional genetic results suggest that the Ashkenazim can trace at least part of their ancestry to their Israelite forbearers.



But Jewish DNA presents a picture that is far more complex than just the Cohanim results. This picture is also far more diverse than what many genetic studies on Ashkenazi Jews would suggest. Instead, many of those studies have focused heavily on the Israelite DNA results, often downplaying the significant contribution of European and Khazarian ancestors. The examination of only a single component of Jewish ancestry has resulted in an incomplete and, to a certain extent, distorted presentation of the Jewish genetic picture.

But since I don't believe that ancient ancestry can justify conquest of land from others anyway, I don't think it's relevant.

[Tribesman]

You lost me here, I will have to do researches.

Thats OK, though apparently God wasn't happy they failed to kill every man woman and child as divinely ordered .
I wonder if I could possibly find some quotes from Israeli politicians and some of the crazy settlers claiming the Palestinians are the decendants of the Amalekites and must be wiped from the earth to fulfill Gods plan?
But hey that would be too easy and I woudn't want to go into that unless Hooah decides to try and show that he wasn't indeed blowing hot air earlier.

[Hooahguy]

some of the crazy settlers claiming the Palestinians are the decendants of the Amalekites and must be wiped from the earth to fulfill Gods plan?

dont worry, i think those settlers are insane too. the palestinians? decedents of amalek? have they lost their mind?

[KarlXII]

That is why the Jews have been persecuted; claiming a God-given right to be placed above other people.

*Facepalm*

[KarlXII]

We just forgot that Goliath was right. It was his land. He succumb against a better trained David armed with a weapon he didn’t expect….

Actually, Goliath wasn't right at all. Goliath was a Phillistine. Phillistines are general agreed to be an Aegean people, part of the Sea Peoples, who invaded Canaan and Egypt. The Phillistines were foreigners.