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  1. #1

    Default Re: The Wehrmacht, History, Myth, Reality

    This is an interresting debate going on here. I myself have always been interrested in the history of WW2 yet for some reason I don't really know why some people wish to tell of any fighting force of any dicatatorian system that took part in the conflict to have benn "clean from any ideology" or other saying "the only reason they were so great is because the followed that x-ism to the last letter". (thank god I haven't seen any of that here so far, only on other places on the internet).

    What really gets me mad is that many would try to make the whole confllict look like a fight between good and evil - a very wrong concept.
    I think all armed forces that took part in the war have also taken part in war crimes to some degree more or less.

    I myself have always read and gathered info about the wehrmacht because I am conwinced that they were the best fighting force of there time (till today I consider the german Blitzkrieg 1939 -1940 to be one of the best lead and fought campaings of the first half of the 20. century in Europe), for a while. However I have never seen or believed that only the "Nazi core" of the army where the only ones to commot warcrimes (although they were the most active in that matter, but not the sole perpretators).

    This does however not mean that all germans (soldier or civilian) are the "bad guys" nor are the Allies the "good guys" and are neither free of commiting deeds that can be seen as "war crimes".

    Just to name a few examples:

    - The massacre of Katyn: well I don't think too much needs to be said.

    - Sending there own men on suicide charges and executing thoose who refused - USSR

    - Disquising some agents as German paratroopers, sending them to viligaes to see if they would help hide them and if the villagers did then deport/execute them all - NKVD activity in the Ukraine.

    - Lead a whole arial bombing campaing tarteging the civilian population of the enemies country to increase suffering with the final goal of inciting a revolt against the goverment - United Kingdom (the USA forces atleast tried to concentrate on factories and military targets in Europe, but in the pacific they bombed/burned down entire cities in japan even such which had little if any military value. The Germans also had similer attempts over England but till then they mostly targeted military facilities, but started attacking London after the British bombed Berlin. - no wonder the term "Western Air terrorists" has been used so long in middle- and east Europe)

    - Drezda, Hirosima, Nagasaki (correct exampels of the above)

    Therefore I would conclude that neither side can be seen as completely innocent nor can all members of any people be seen as completely guilty.
    Last edited by HunGeneral; 09-01-2009 at 19:43. Reason: Spelling
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  2. #2

    Default Re: The Wehrmacht, History, Myth, Reality

    And Poland has never been country ruled by racist ideology.
    We have autoritarism (very good doctrine) but never racism.
    Yeah right
    Do not mix us with Germans. We don't build deathcamps - we liberate them.
    Really? with the exception of the german prisons in warsaw during the rising all the concentration camps in Poland were liberated by the Russians.
    So your claim about liberation is that the Polish got some people out of prison for a while before they surrendered them back to the Nazis.

  3. #3
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wehrmacht, History, Myth, Reality

    Sure looks like this thread has many familiarities with a train wreck...

    Stay on topic and no more of the nationalistic drivel please.



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  4. #4
    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wehrmacht, History, Myth, Reality

    So your claim about liberation is that the Polish got some people out of prison for a while before they surrendered them back to the Nazis.
    Calm Tribesman, calm. Do not mix us with Germans. Poles liberated some deathcamps and few gestapo prisons.

    Someone mentioned that carpet bombing of german cities was bad. But ... how many 88 guns
    were used to defend german cities instead of fighting on eastern front.
    Americans started carpet bombing of cities into Japan when japananese high command ordered to move facilities from industry to normal districts.


    Evil - maybe you check when 2nd Reich was oficially announced? I always thought that after french-prussian war (check name FRENCH = PRUSSIAN NOT FRENCH GERMAN). And maybe you tell me when we were so brutal to minorities? I really want to know because I don't remember any situation when official ideology of polish nation was destruction of national minority (action Vistula can't be count due to some reasons). Maybe I'm wrong but Mahomet said "to knowledge go even to China".
    Before you wrote I have to tell you something about nowadays Germany.
    Into todays Germany some laws from III Reich (yes - from Hitler times) are still in force. Mostly law about minorities. According to them Poles (about 1.500.000 people) are not national minority.
    John Thomas Gross - liar who want put on Poles responsibility for impassivity of American Jews during holocaust

  5. #5

    Default Re: The Wehrmacht, History, Myth, Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by HunGeneral
    What really gets me mad is that many would try to make the whole confllict look like a fight between good and evil - a very wrong concept.
    I think all armed forces that took part in the war have also taken part in war crimes to some degree more or less.
    That's like saying that the 12 year old girl who was raped asked for it.

    Nazi Germany was directly responsible for starting WW2 which led to the death of more than 50 million people in Europe alone. It was responsible for destroying the European Jewry, killing off 66% of its people, destroying utterly anything that was standing in its way.

    A small excrept from a previous post I made over at TWC...
    How about some other specialties of the regime?
    -Here's what happened in Greece. I will take one of all the villages torched and destroyed their people slain. In Arta prefecture, August 17 1943, Wermacht's Edelweiss division executed 317 villagers, 172 of them being women, two priests and 13 babies, all less than 1 year old.
    -Italian prisoners slaughtered in Kephalonia after Italy surrendered to the Allies and Hitler declared them traitors. 3000 "drowned", 1.135 executed and 25 Slovenes with them along with 5.189 more Italians who were summarily shot.

    The list goes on and on, but the truth, documented and explained in detail by Herman Frank Meyer, a German who, looking for his father grave (he had been executed by resistance fighters) stumbled upon the Nazi's reing of terror, which he documented.
    http://www.hfmeyer.com/english/publications/index.html


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  6. #6
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wehrmacht, History, Myth, Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by KrooK View Post
    Evil - maybe you check when 2nd Reich was oficially announced? I always thought that after french-prussian war (check name FRENCH = PRUSSIAN NOT FRENCH GERMAN).


    Link

    Click the link. Scroll down in the box on the right until you see where it says Emperor. Click Wilhelm I. Check which dynasty he belonged to.

    The German Empire was an Empire ruled by the Hohenzollern dynasty. I don't know why you denied that.

    And maybe you tell me when we were so brutal to minorities? I really want to know because I don't remember any situation when official ideology of polish nation was destruction of national minority (action Vistula can't be count due to some reasons).
    So according to you one ethnic cleansing doesn't count, the one on the eastern border. Why don't you try the ones on your western border? Or certain other things that Poland liked to do which are conveniently missed by modern Polish nationalists?

    Into todays Germany some laws from III Reich (yes - from Hitler times) are still in force. Mostly law about minorities. According to them Poles (about 1.500.000 people) are not national minority.


    Where do you get your information? There aren't even close to one and a half million Poles in Germany. We have more Italians than Poles.
    Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 09-02-2009 at 07:19.

  7. #7
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Wehrmacht, History, Myth, Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by HunGeneral View Post

    - Lead a whole arial bombing campaing tarteging the civilian population of the enemies country to increase suffering with the final goal of inciting a revolt against the goverment - United Kingdom (the USA forces atleast tried to concentrate on factories and military targets in Europe, but in the pacific they bombed/burned down entire cities in japan even such which had little if any military value. The Germans also had similer attempts over England but till then they mostly targeted military facilities, but started attacking London after the British bombed Berlin. - no wonder the term "Western Air terrorists" has been used so long in middle- and east Europe)

    - Drezda, Hirosima, Nagasaki (correct exampels of the above)

    Therefore I would conclude that neither side can be seen as completely innocent nor can all members of any people be seen as completely guilty.
    Total War. Once Germany had decided that it was waging a total war (bombing London first) then the gloves were off. That idea is even support in the likes of the Geneva Convention. So the bombing of civilian populations to bring about an early end to the war was deemed to be 'fair'. Problem with this thinking and what High Command should have seen is that bombing a civilian population only gets their backup and is hence counterproductive. Mind you that probably is one Dresden happened... total destruction was supposed to break morale, much like mustard gas and other nerve toxins were supposed to end WWI in weeks. Again HQ doesn't factor in counter measures and that atrocities beget atrocities and only gets morale up of those who survive (well anger if nothing else).

    The bombing of Japan is different on both the conventional front and nuclear. Japan dispersed its manufactoring ability throughout its cities. Meaning that to attack the manufactoring base you had to attack the civilian sites as they were often the same building. The nuclear attack was a much better option then mass starvation and invasion see Okinawa for results of a land invasion.

    There is also a massive difference between bombing a country and taking prisoners and making lampshades of their skin or gutting pregnant women to see who won a bet on the sex of the unborn. The primary difference can be seen after occupation to compare who was good and who was evil if you want to bandy those terms around. Germany and Japan slaughtered those they took over that they had no use for, those who looked different, had different genders to those they agreed with, those who had different religion or beliefs or politics they also killed the mentally ill and the handicapped. On the other hand Germany and Japan once taken over by the Allies got the likes of the Marshall plan.

    Quite a telling difference.
    Last edited by Papewaio; 09-02-2009 at 07:24.
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  8. #8
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wehrmacht, History, Myth, Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    Total War. Once Germany had decided that it was waging a total war (bombing London first) then the gloves were off.
    I may be completely wrong, but wasn't German bombing of London originally confined to generally industrial targets and the docklands? Regardless, in terms of tonnage the response was vastly disproportionate. I wouldn't have minded so much if it was focused on industry, but the goal was to kill as many humans as possible. That is despicable regardless of which side did it (and both did).

    Germany and Japan slaughtered those they took over that they had no use for, those who looked different, had different genders to those they agreed with, those who had different religion or beliefs or politics they also killed the mentally ill and the handicapped.
    Honestly though, what use did the Allies have for the burned victims of the bombings? To use them prove to the Soviets that they could do it? To try a little experiment to see if they could make the Hun give in a little quicker? Make no mistake, I'm glad the Allies won and am well aware that they committed crimes at a much, much lesser scale, and you'll catch me throwing rocks at the likes of the NPD sooner than marching anywhere near alongside them. But something that is morally wrong is morally wrong, whoever does it.

    On the other hand Germany and Japan once taken over by the Allies got the likes of the Marshall plan.
    Oh, West Germany is grateful for the Marshall Plan, but would we have received anything or as much if there hadn't been an immediate threat to us in the West? Regardless, the aid was very much appreciated. The Allies did more for us in those few years than the Nazi scum did in twelve or the Soviets did for the East in forty...

  9. #9
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wehrmacht, History, Myth, Reality

    I think Dresden was terrible (as a crime, as a tactic and as a waste of resources). It was a crime to aim to kill as many people as possible. As a tactic even if I was a Mongol warlord I wouldn't want to do an attack that made my enemy more angry and less likely to surrender. As a waste of resources, war is logistics, don't do anything in a total war that isn't helping you win.

    There is a lot of crimes that Allied soldiers also did. I think the biggest difference is the institutionalization of them and promotion of those who did them in Nazi Germany. Imperial Japan had a pretty bad time with the crimes they did, although they did a very good job of whitewashing most of them to their civilian population.

    War is a waster and not much good comes of it. We do have a few things and one of those is the desire not to repeat such a mistake.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: The Wehrmacht, History, Myth, Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by keravnos View Post
    Nazi Germany was directly responsible for starting WW2 which led to the death of more than 50 million people in Europe alone. It was responsible for destroying the European Jewry, killing off 66% of its people, destroying utterly anything that was standing in its way.
    Wether "who" can be blaimed for WWII is still heavely disputed. It could have been the Japanese who started the war when attacking China in 1936 since that conflict didn't end until 1945. It could have benn the french and the british if we think that the "peace -dictate" of Versailes was what lead to a utterly deprived, insulted, driven by nationalistic ideologyes Germany filled with hatred against anything the great powers France and england stood for and blinded enough to believe the myth of the "stab in the back", thereby (with the economical crisis of the 30s) giving necessary political atmosphere for Hitler to take power and drag teh world to war.

    At any point in my post where did I question the Deathtoll of the war? Or deny that the Germans had commited atrocities aswell?

    Also "destroying utterly anything that was standing in its way" - that aplies for the Soviet Union aswell if you ask me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    I may be completely wrong, but wasn't German bombing of London originally confined to generally industrial targets and the docklands? Regardless, in terms of tonnage the response was vastly disproportionate. I wouldn't have minded so much if it was focused on industry, but the goal was to kill as many humans as possible. That is despicable regardless of which side did it (and both did).
    I feel the same about the matter and as much as I know the germans preferrred to use there bomber force as ground support, and attacked primearly military targets if possible, this is reinforced by the fact that they developed only light to medium bombers, but never had a really effective heavy bomber like the B-17s, B-24s and Lancasters of the US an UK. (I'm not sure but as much as I know the Luftwaffe even forbade any bombers to bomb anything near London without Hitlers personal orders. - The first Luftwaffe bombers over London were a small detachment that lost orientation at night and dropped there bombs not knowing where they were. As a reaction churchill ordered Bomber command to attack Berlin and after just a small raid Hitler got so mad he ordered the Luftwaffe to bomb London to the ground instead of concentrating on military targets....

    Also the alies response is somewhat to vast - more civilians were killed just during the 3 day bombing of Hamburg then all civilian casualities of the whole Battle or Britain, the Blitz and the V1- V2 attacks in England together.

    Also as you said the Allies were not exactly aiming for the industry in Europe. If I may quote from Sir Arthur Harris - Air Officer Commanding in Chief of the RAF Bomber command:

    "the aim of the Combined Bomber Offensive...should be unambiguously stated [as] the destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers, and the disruption of civilized life throughout Germany"...

    "It should be emphasized that the destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives, the creation of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale, and the breakdown of morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and intensified bombing, are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy. They are not by-products of attempts to hit factories"

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Honestly though, what use did the Allies have for the burned victims of the bombings? To use them prove to the Soviets that they could do it? To try a little experiment to see if they could make the Hun give in a little quicker? Make no mistake, I'm glad the Allies won and am well aware that they committed crimes at a much, much lesser scale, and you'll catch me throwing rocks at the likes of the NPD sooner than marching anywhere near alongside them. But something that is morally wrong is morally wrong, whoever does it.
    I fully agree


    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    The Allies did more for us in those few years than the Nazi scum did in twelve or the Soviets did for the East in forty...
    I agree that the Wetsern allies were much more humane then the Nazis or the Soviets in all aspects.
    I'm glad it wasn't the Nazis who won the war, though sometimes I wish the Soviets had been driven out of East Europe earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    War is a waster and not much good comes of it. We do have a few things and one of those is the desire not to repeat such a mistake.
    I fulhearthedly agree.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: The Wehrmacht, History, Myth, Reality

    I feel the same about the matter and as much as I know the germans preferrred to use there bomber force as ground support, and attacked primearly military targets if possible this is reinforced by the fact that they developed only light to medium bombers, but never had a really effective heavy bomber like the B-17s, B-24s and Lancasters of the US an UK.
    No , that shows that the Germans were planning mainly short range missions over neighbouring territory. The B-17 was simply designed to be able to reach Hawaii and Alaska and the B-24 was designed to to the same . Likewise the British bombers were designed to cope with the vast distances of the empire.

    I'm not sure but as much as I know the Luftwaffe even forbade any bombers to bomb anything near London without Hitlers personal orders.
    Yes but that was after they had bombed Polish cities , then said they wouldn't bomb cities , then bombed cities again .
    The Nazis had made diplomatic moves saying really honestly trust us and lets all agree not to bomb cities....but demonstrated that they wouldn't keep those agreements, so after Rotterdam their diplomatic moves for another agreement were rejected.

  12. #12
    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wehrmacht, History, Myth, Reality

    Ahh Maniac belongs to poor party of Erika Steinbach.

    Imagine that forcing Germans to leave Poland (but only those Germans who did not ran before Red Army) was not ethnic clearing. Into international law there is rule that has never been changed and no one even tried to do it. Defeated agressor is not a part of international law - everything can be done with its territory.

    On east of Poland (east of Poland is not todays east of Poland but Wilno, Grodno and Lwow line) there have never been ethnic clearings. Maybe you explain me what do you mean by ethnic clearing? We might have different definitions. For me its massive killing all of population who at the beginning of clearing is not agressive to killing party.

    Or maybe you wrote something about ethic clearings into Poland in 1939 - 1940. Come one - Germans love yelling about poor Germans who had to leave their fatherland into 1945-47 (despite 80% ran into 1944) but most of them forgot that into 1939-1940 half million of Poles had to leave their homes in the middle of hard winter and run.

    Nice example could be that hypocrite woman called Erika Steinbach. She cry about her home, when she was born. Doing it she does not remember that her home was not ... here. It belonged to polish family forced to leave it.

    Come one Maniac don't be such idiot like them. They have problem because they still don't understand that leaving these part of Poland was just a punishment for nazism. And for their behavior towards Poles. Rather light punishment in my opinion - Russians treated them much harder.

    And one more for Dresden topic (I think we already talked about it). Into 1939 no German city has been bombed - Englishmen and Frenchmen only drop a leaflets. Then Germans bombed Coventry.....
    John Thomas Gross - liar who want put on Poles responsibility for impassivity of American Jews during holocaust

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Wehrmacht, History, Myth, Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by HunGeneral View Post
    I feel the same about the matter and as much as I know the germans preferrred to use there bomber force as ground support, and attacked primearly military targets if possible, this is reinforced by the fact that they developed only light to medium bombers, but never had a really effective heavy bomber like the B-17s, B-24s and Lancasters of the US an UK.
    Germans terror-bombed Warsaw and Rotterdam to force their surrender. They even wiped out Guernica, mostly just for the heck of it. All of these long before the Allies had started serious bombing campaigns against the Germans.

    Quote Originally Posted by HunGeneral View Post
    (I'm not sure but as much as I know the Luftwaffe even forbade any bombers to bomb anything near London without Hitlers personal orders. - The first Luftwaffe bombers over London were a small detachment that lost orientation at night and dropped there bombs not knowing where they were.
    That was a purely political decisions. Hitler still hoping for a negotiated peace with Britain, seemd to recognize that wiping out downtown London would not endear Germany to the British hearts. He also did not want to encourage British air attacks on Berlin (which it was feared would demoralize the German people).

    Quote Originally Posted by HunGeneral View Post
    As a reaction churchill ordered Bomber command to attack Berlin
    British strategic bombing was initially intended to be precision bombing, but the British discovered they had trouble hitting the right city at night, much less an individual target set in the city. Bomber Command, initially at least, simply made a virtue of necessity with area bombing.
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  14. #14
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wehrmacht, History, Myth, Reality

    Quote Originally Posted by NimitsTexan View Post
    Rotterdam to force their surrender.
    The bombing of Rotterdamn was actually probably a miscommunication between German commanders. A hell of a miscommunication, but still...

    They even wiped out Guernica, mostly just for the heck of it.
    That was technically under Nationalist Spanish command.

    British strategic bombing was initially intended to be precision bombing, but the British discovered they had trouble hitting the right city at night, much less an individual target set in the city. Bomber Command, initially at least, simply made a virtue of necessity with area bombing.
    In other words, since they figured out they had a tough time hitting the factories they decided to demolish the whole city.

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