KOTF OOC Thread

[ULC]

These games are long hauls - typically lasting a year - so hang in there.

However, I will be glad to see Gaetan resurface - although I am not sure Hermant will be accepting any drinks from him.

Coward - shows how much you know Gaetan.

[econ21]

Coward - shows how much you know Gaetan.

I was trying to be humourous (a reference to the spiked ale). Hermant would be delighted to hear from Gaetan whenever he resurfaces.

[ULC]

I was trying to be humourous (a reference to the spiked ale). Hermant would be delighted to hear from Gaetan whenever he resurfaces.

I have a story that should be up soon, give you an idea of his current state of mind.

[_Tristan_]

On a side note, a technicality : Antwerp has not yet been ratified by an Edict as it was German-held at the time of conquest, so technically, the Order has only been promised it... So does it enable the Captain of the Order to run for Senechal under the condition that Antwerp be ratified in this session of the Conseil ? Or does it disqualify him ?

I have no preference whatsoever.

[Ituralde]

Bit of a clincher there.

Just had a look at the rules.
Hm, the way I read it, all provinces that weren't ratified through Edict 1.2 currently belong to no one. At least it isn't clearly specified in the rules itself. The fact that they only pass into the King's Demesne after they are ratified by an Edict means they are owned by someone else. If you read on the conqueror can refuse to give a ratified to the King. Which can mean that the province belongs to the conqueror until ratified. I believe King Phillip conquered Antwerp, so it would be his. The only question would be whether you can give away unratified provinces? The rules aren't too clear on the whole issue.

I think the spirit of the rule was that you can't do anything with the province until ratified. This would also put a questionmark on all the other unratified provinces Phillip has already given away. I think the best option would be to just let it stand and have it dealt with IC. The King decides on rule disputes, let him make a decision:

A: provinces can only be given away if ratified
B: provinces can be given away, even if that can lead to an unlanded Seneshal, who has to give up the unratified province he just got the position of Seneshal with.

or C. Whatever the King wants!

[AussieGiant]

B's pretty impactful as it relates to the ability to run for Seneschal only after you get land. That is outlined in another part of the rules.

We need a ruling on that and the rest as land acquisition is pretty important and it would be good if we all understood the process clearly so we can make informed IC decisions.

Based on the past edicts, all rebel provinces taken in the last period were ratified. Therefore they are part of the King Demesne and are free to be handed out. No noble has refused to do that so the process goes forward.

All previous German holdings need to be ratified and if they have via edict in this session then they are also part of the King Demesne as soon as this session is finished and then the "dealing" of them can be made.

Again no noble has refused to prevent this from happening.

Was Antwerp rebel or german? If it was rebel then it can be handed out. It it was German it can be handed out by the King as soon as the session is finished AND there is an edict ratifiying it in the edicts.

That is how I understood the rules.

[econ21]

You don't buy my argument that the King owns Antwerp prior to ratification by right of conquest? I thought we agreed conqueror's hold their conquests until ratification - this was explained to me by Tristan:

...Zim seemed to consider that the hand-over should be handled at the next council session and that until that time the province belonged to the conquering noble. Then it was either ratified and went to the King or became the start of a civil war, or was handed back to its rightful owner through lack of ratification.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=977

So if we agree the King owned Antwerp by right of conquest, surely he could transfer ownership before ratification?

That argument stands or falls regardless of the edict authorising taking rebel settlements. However, if people don't buy that argument, you could make the case that the edict authorised taking Antwerp because at the time of the edict, Antwerp was - I believe - rebel. [Maybe I am wrong that Antwerp was rebel at the time of the edict (but it starts vanilla M2TW as rebel).]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Based on the past edicts, all rebel provinces taken in the last period were ratified.

I think the edict covered "neighbouring" rebel provinces, so there is an issue of interpretation regarding Caernarvon and Antwerp.

Was Antwerp rebel or german?

Another issue of interpretation is the timing. I think Antwerp was rebel at the time of the edict (and I forgot it was German at the time of conquest, hence my jumping the gun earlier). So you could make a case that the edict covered provinces that were rebel at the time of the edict.

Personally, I think my "King's by right of conquest" argument is the relevant one though.

[ULC]

I always saw it as the person conquering holding it, whether it be the King or not, and it being personally theirs, although nothing can be done with it until it was ratified and made part of the Royaume/Kingdom.

In such a sense, yes it is the Kings to handout, but until it is ratified, it cannot be considered land for the qualification for the post of Seneschal.

[econ21]

On a side note, a technicality : Antwerp has not yet been ratified by an Edict as it was German-held at the time of conquest, so technically, the Order has only been promised it... So does it enable the Captain of the Order to run for Senechal under the condition that Antwerp be ratified in this session of the Conseil ? Or does it disqualify him ?

Um, I missed this subtlety.

I am little hazy on the game rules, but from what you had said earlier, I think Zim intended that the conqueror of the province owns it until it is ratified - at which point, it passes into the King's holdings and can be allocated. Applying that to Antwerp, I would say that Antwerp belonged to the King from the moment of conquest by virtue of his having personally conquered it. So he could allocate it prior to ratification. But I agree with the Ituralde, it's a grey area that it might be best to solve IC.