French and Moland vs. Republic of Congo

[Tribesman]

My guess is that you don't know me or my past, or know much about the training exchange between UK and Norway.
I used to travel to Scotland a few years back. I do not claim to be an ex-OP, but I was in the milieu so to speak.

Yeah?
So you should understand that getting into the country would be extremely difficult even if you could get assistance and access from a neighbouring country , once in movement would be near enough impossible and getting out again would require a miracle.
The only viable route in or out is from Brazzaville, but duexto the nature of the numerous wars going on in the state even the smallest boat cannot get onto the river without a military escort from the government.

[Sigurd]

Yeah?
So you should understand that getting into the country would be extremely difficult even if you could get assistance and access from a neighbouring country , once in movement would be near enough impossible and getting out again would require a miracle.
The only viable route in or out is from Brazzaville, but duexto the nature of the numerous wars going on in the state even the smallest boat cannot get onto the river without a military escort from the government.

But your suggestion is only applicable if they are actually moved to Kinshasa. Right now they are over 1000 km from the capital.
Knowing the military - they might already have plans ready even if they will never execute them. I shall not speculate on the possible options. We haven't been in this situation before and I am not sure what the government will decide if they learn that their execution is imminent. But I know certain branches in the military has the sufficient training to do such operations. I know from first hand experience. Even with my training (which I suspect is somewhat better than the average Congolese soldier), I never saw them coming nor leaving and I was expecting them.

[Tribesman]

Right now they are over 1000 km from the capital.

Yes and the only ready access is by a single road or by the river , both of which are out of the question.
Both the UN and the government are unable to operate aircraft in the region without attendant gunships for support so that rules out a covert airbourne operation(even if they had somewhere to stage one from).
So that leaves an overland cross country route (which would still mean crossing the river) which involves trying to get through many thousands of rather nutty bloodthirsty militiamen who are very experienced at killing people in their current home territory and then getting through the government forces and their nutty militias too

Even with my training (which I suspect is somewhat better than the average Congolese soldier),

Since the Congolese soldiers have been fighting a very intense and very very bloody series of wars involving both regular and irregular actions for the past 11 years I doubt your training exersises will compare very well for experience.

The only real options are pay up the extortion money or leave the two idiots to their fate , I would favour the latter.

[Kadagar_AV]

Tribes, shall we note this as a "first"?

I however 100% agree...


Do not get me wrong, please... The trial was a JOKE. Also, the claim Congo has on the norwegian government isnt even a joke, it is just patethic.

These facts withstanding though -> the two Norwegians were SOF, soldiers of fortune.

They went down to Africa with hollywood all in their minds, trying to get some easy money.... Guess what, it backfired.

Natural selection, death penalty def is the right choice here (of course, they wont actually get killed, but still, I appreciate the general gesture).

Now, generaly, as a swede, I back Norway 100%. I love Norway, and I have sooooo many norwegian friends. But they all seem to have the same view, let these two idiots be left to their fate.



Side topic:

Sigurd, just back off. Contrary to you I have had spec-op training...

I have also trained with your FSK, also with your HJK...

Don't get me wrong, they are elite-units indeed... But this specific task is not really what they train for, or are supposed to accomplish.

[Tribesman]

Do not get me wrong, please... The trial was a JOKE

Of course.

Also, the claim Congo has on the norwegian government isnt even a joke, it is just patethic.

You can't blame them for trying.
If for example a Libyan was playing silly buggers in Scotland and had a Libyan military ID that said it was valid until 2016 would they try make a case that the silly bugger must have been working for Libya

[Kadagar_AV]

Of course.

You can't blame them for trying.
If for example a Libyan was playing silly buggers in Scotland and had a Libyan military ID that said it was valid until 2016 would they try make a case that the silly bugger must have been working for Libya

Well, I doubt they would ask for billions...

I mean, seriosly, for the money Congo wants you coud basicly buy Switzerland...

Oh well, it's Africa..... anything goes... I start to have a whole new respect for the people from Congo that made me move from my former neighbourhood... I get why thy fled, as well as I get why the acted the way they did...

[Sigurd]

Sigurd, just back off. Contrary to you I have had spec-op training...

I have also trained with your FSK, also with your HJK...

Don't get me wrong, they are elite-units indeed... But this specific task is not really what they train for, or are supposed to accomplish.

That you have trained with a few of our elite-groups doesn't make you a qualified expert on what Norwegian covert operations can and can't do. To the contrary. I assume you trained in Scotland with SAS then?

[Mithrandir]

I have also trained with your FSK, also with your HJK...

FSK, HJK.... but what about tourists?

[Mithrandir]

Ps: any courtroom which has the same furniture as most people have in their garden should not be taken serious...

[Tribesman]

That you have trained with a few of our elite-groups doesn't make you a qualified expert on what Norwegian covert operations can and can't do. To the contrary. I assume you trained in Scotland with SAS then?

So an example of what the SAS can do?
Sierra Leone . A short range insertion with air support across friendly territory and with assistance from the local government plus numerical superiority.
None of which would apply for the Congo.

[Andres]

SAS, FSK, HJK, ...


What a bunch of wusses!

I am a member of the super secret and ultra trained Special Belgian Beer Squad (S.B.B.S.).

It's so secret that even I, myself, a member of it, am not entirely sure of its' existence! Maybe it indeed doesn't even exist, which would be the ultimate plan to ensure its' secrecy! And I'm a proud member of it. I think.

Well, anyway, getting those guys out of Congo is very easy.

You only need a big truck loaded with thousands of bottles of Duvel. You drive into the enemy territory and hand out the Duvel.

Those weaklings of petty soldiers with their petty years of experience will fall unconscious after only one bottle. We, highly trained S.B.B.S.'ers will drink together with them, but since we are so highly trained, we won't get drunk.

So, when the entire enemy force is passed out, we just take the hostages with us and we'll get out the country. Ha! We'll even be celebrating and dancing and making lots of noise! Stealth is for wimps!

The only risk of the plan is that me and my colleagues, being addicted to hard training as we are, will drink all the Duvel ourselves before we even reach Congo.

[caravel]

Gah, spreading your lies again I see! You're nothing compared to the brave men of the Special Camel Service! Our chaps survive for days in enemy territory on nothing but a flagon of camel milk, still steaming hot from the udder. We are considerably more elite than all the rest of you put together!

[Andres]

Gah, spreading your lies again I see! You're nothing compared to the brave men of the Special Camel Service! Our chaps survive for days in enemy territory on nothing but a flagon of camel milk, still steaming hot from the udder. We are considerably more elite than all the rest of you put together!

The SCS are just a bunch of tourists compared to us, S.B.B.S.'ers

[Louis VI the Fat]

S.B.B.S.

Hah...unlike all the tough-talking guys from elsewhere, the S.B.B.S.'s track record really does include the conquest of Central African territory the size of Western Europe.
[CENTER]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Andres au Congo

Picture deleted by picky moderator. Though I have NO reason to believe the stereotypical representation of Africans depicted in the cartoon were intended to convey an inappropriate message, I will err on the side of safety. SF

[Kadagar_AV]

That you have trained with a few of our elite-groups doesn't make you a qualified expert on what Norwegian covert operations can and can't do. To the contrary. I assume you trained in Scotland with SAS then?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

No, I am not an expert on Norwegian special operation teams... I do however have somewhat OK-ish knowledge of what spec ops can and can not do..

I have not trained with them in Scotland, no. back in 00/01 we had a joint arctic survival program for sweden, norway and finland. And in 02/03 I helped the snipers (inte krypskyttarna, utan skarpskyttarna) prepare for their trip to Afghanistan.

The problem with your scenario isnt that the troops cant do it, the problem is getting them there and back with sufficient intelligence and equipment. Thus more of a logistical problem than tactical one (like always).

ON TOPIC: Congo is just looking for a bribe... Norway is rich, and Congo knows this. This should have been settled before it even came to court, then the bribes would have been minimal. Now, after all the attention, the bribes are going to be HUGE as Congo put a lot of prestige into it.

I still believe the two idiots should rot in some prison, though.



Mithrandir,

FSK, HJK.... but what about tourists?

What about them? I dont quite get you, or were you just spamming?



Tribes, excellent example. The USA has also done some prison-rescues, blackbirds landing on the yards with guns blazing.


Andres, thank you for your insight... I am glad you contributed to this thread. Deep and meaningful like always, I *bow* I think it's great that you are so on topic, and not idiotic at all :)

[caravel]

Andres, thank you for your insight... I am glad you contributed to this thread. Deep and meaningful like always, I *bow* I think it's great that you are so on topic, and not idiotic at all :)

That's the spirit, all of us spec-ops chappies should stick together.

[Husar]

I don't think the FSK or HJK could do this, the KSK perhaps but why should they?
The PSM and the GSG are not responsible for this and should not be used abroad, their training is also not for long-range infiltration.
I'm using Dublin, Frankfurt, Copenhagen and Rio de Janeiro as references here where the respective forces showed what they are really capable of.

In the end Norway should probably just pay instead of sending any of these into a big death trap.

[Strike For The South]

I think we need to send in the A-team.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I think we need to send in the A-team.

Good idea. That way you can insure nobody, on either side, actually gets shot.

CR
PS Wow, Tintin was racist.

[Louis VI the Fat]

To return to spec-ops: Sigurd, where I said it is 'not possible', I mean unfeasable. I am quite convinced that Norway could militarily get these two man out. I am also fairly certain that the US can nuke every corner of Afghanistan. It's just not politically viable. Norway's best bet I think is to reach an agreement whereby the right people in Congo get some prize (a five hundred million pound oil contract?), the death sentence is reduced to imprisonment, and this imprisonment is executed in Norway itself.

~~-~~-~~-<o0O0o>-~~-~~-~~

Let's re-ignite the discussion.

The question remains: does Congo have a case? I am not so sure that they do not.

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ur...cle3246391.ece

In 2007 these two soldiers of fortune were relieved from the military in Norway for...recruiting for their terrorist organisation within the army. A mere two years ago. Why didn't Norway keep track of these terrorists? How were they able to set up shop in Uganda, unhampered? To start and operate a mercenary firm that employed mostly Norwegians? Although granted that evidence of other acts or persons involved is not really emerging.

If one drops the racist glasses, it is not the Congo, but Norway that shows questionable behaviour. One is a poor country. The other among the richest and most developed in the world. It is easy to laugh at the poor negroes, for their courtroom that uses furniture only deemed fit for garden use in Norway.

But the silly negroes got their man. They dismantled a foreign terrorist organisation fairly soon after it started killing. If anything, Congo -dirt poor- needs to be admired for its rapid and succesful anti-terror intelligence. Intelligence, that apparantly Norway was unwilling or incapable of acting upon or providing.

Norway, once its done laughing at the undisciplined negroes, could also accept that it has very little to show for itself.
Imagine two Pakistanis radicalizing, openly recruiting within the Pakistan army, and then starting a terrorist organisation in Denmark, and the founders being caught in Norway after they killed a Norwegian, complete with pictures of themselves laughing while wiping off his blood? What would we think of Pakistan?
In this case, would the world side with Pakistan against Norway? Or the reverse?


How many other Norwegian terrorists are operating abroad? Have the other members of this group been arrested yet, or has Norway at least investigated who might be involved? I suppose not. I do not hear any excuses coming from Norway. Just arrogant protests, bordering on the racist. The same racist arrogance that motivated these two clowns - luckily those "darkies" weren't as stupid as they thought they were after all.

[Sigurd]

Let's re-ignite the discussion.

The question remains: does Congo have a case? I am not so sure that they do not.

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ur...cle3246391.ece

In 2007 these two soldiers of fortune were relieved from the military in Norway for...recruiting for their terrorist organisation within the army. A mere two years ago. Why didn't Norway keep track of these terrorists? How were they able to set up shop in Uganda, unhampered? To start and operate a mercenary firm that employed mostly Norwegians? Although granted that evidence of other acts or persons involved is not really emerging.

If one drops the racist glasses, it is not the Congo, but Norway that shows questionable behaviour. One is a poor country. The other among the richest and most developed in the world. It is easy to laugh at the poor negroes, for their courtroom that uses furniture only deemed fit for garden use in Norway.

But the silly negroes got their man. They dismantled a foreign terrorist organisation fairly soon after it started killing. If anything, Congo -dirt poor- needs to be admired for its rapid and succesful anti-terror intelligence. Intelligence, that apparantly Norway was unwilling or incapable of acting upon or providing.

Norway, once its done laughing at the undisciplined negroes, could also accept that it has very little to show for itself.
Imagine two Pakistanis radicalizing, openly recruiting within the Pakistan army, and then starting a terrorist organisation in Denmark, and the founders being caught in Norway after they killed a Norwegian, complete with pictures of themselves laughing while wiping off his blood? What would we think of Pakistan?
In this case, would the world side with Pakistan against Norway? Or the reverse?

How many other Norwegian terrorists are operating abroad? Have the other members of this group been arrested yet, or has Norway at least investigated who might be involved? I suppose not. I do not hear any excuses coming from Norway. Just arrogant protests, bordering on the racist. The same racist arrogance that motivated these two clowns - luckily those darkies weren't as stupid as they thought they were after all.

Where do you get the terrorist allegations from Louis? Its certainly not in the news article you provided. It states: Armed private missions in Africa, and then examples for such: like guards on a ship or at oil installations. Terrorism? I think not.

And the racist remarks are pathetic Louis. It is the contrasts that boggles our mind. The court case has been well reported here from several journalists present at the court. The Norwegian state has spend hundreds of millions in DR of Congo, building schools, hospitals etc.
We very much sympathize with the civilian population of Congo and the suffering they have endured during the recent wars. I am sure we will, despite of this rather sad tribunal, continue to spend money in Congo.

These men could be guilty, but they were never given a fair trial. The appeal has been delivered and the process is not finished.
The Norwegian State has confidence in Congo, that a fairer trial will be conducted in a civil court away from Kinsangani where they think little of the central government.

[Tribesman]

Where do you get the terrorist allegations from Louis? Its certainly not in the news article you provided. It states: Armed private missions in Africa, and then examples for such: like guards on a ship or at oil installations. Terrorism? I think not.

Oil companies in Africa, S. America and Asia are well known for not having their mercenaries ......err...security guards commit acts of terrorism.

[Papewaio]

My guess is that the two mercs will get a commuted sentence in a Norwegian Gaol.

Republic of Congo citizens get easier visa access to Norway (student/tourist visas... which will only be useful to the upper echelons) and maybe a joint oil development (sharing of technologies etc) might get fast tracked.

[Samurai Waki]

I've mulled over the idea of absurd wars, I'm pretty sure the Great Norwegian-Congo War of 2009 would be somewhere on the top of this list.

I agree with Tribes and Kadagar, these guys knew **** well what they were getting themselves into, and if they didn't, well then they deserve the fate that has been handed to them even more.

[Mooks]

I've mulled over the idea of absurd wars, I'm pretty sure the Great Norwegian-Congo War of 2009 would be somewhere on the top of this list.

I agree with Tribes and Kadagar, these guys knew **** well what they were getting themselves into, and if they didn't, well then they deserve the fate that has been handed to them even more.

I dont think so. Look at the picture, seems like they were joking. Probaly thought nothing was going to happen to them and their excuse of why the driver is dead was good enough.

Louis, you sound like every other person that voted in Bush 2 terms using the word "terrorist" in every other sentence. Learn what a terrorist actually it. Hint; its not every person that you dont like and uses a gun contrary to popular belief.

[Tribesman]

Louis, you sound like every other person that voted in Bush 2 terms using the word "terrorist" in every other sentence.

That deserves an award for the funniest thing written on this forum for a long time.

Learn what a terrorist actually it.

Define what a terrorist is then Mooks.

[Mooks]

That deserves an award for the funniest thing written on this forum for a long time.



Define what a terrorist is then Mooks.

Alright, how bout this straight from dictionary.com

"a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism"

[Adrian II]

Well well, the Norwegian prime-minister's spokesman has distanced himself from the two gentlemen, calling them 'to norske idioter i Kongo' ('Two Norwegian idiots in Congo').

But the story about their private security company engaging in all sorts of murky business as reported by Aftenposten certainly points to the indirect, but conscious involvement of the Norwegian state. Indeed, those Congolese prosecutors seem to have a better case than some of us thought.

[Sigurd]

Well well, the Norwegian prime-minister's spokesman has distanced himself from the two gentlemen, calling them 'to norske idioter i Kongo' ('Two Norwegian idiots in Congo').

Your googlefu aint that strong my friend. This so-called spokesman is a former advisor to Bondevik from the Christian People's party - not in government by the way, and wrote it on twitter. When confronted by the press, he deleted it and admitted it was a stupid thing to do.

As much as you guys want to tarnish the reputation of Norway, you got to try harder. Why would Norway want to spy on Congo using these two? If the Congolese really believed Norway had ill intent why not arrest all the Norwegian humanitarian workers in Congo?
If these two kids are guilty - their guilt is on their heads alone.

[Viking]

Your googlefu aint that strong my friend. This so-called spokesman is a former advisor to Bondevik from the Christian People's party - not in government by the way, and wrote it on twitter. When confronted by the press, he deleted it and admitted it was a stupid thing to do.

It appears to be deleted from twitter, but to NRK he said that he did not regret his wording. (http://nrk.no/nyheter/1.6765698)