America - The Freest Country?

[Lemur]

Yeah, I'd say our prison population is a pretty hard strike against us being the "freest." Not a knockout blow, but definitely a hit.

But in one area America is going from strength to strength—the incarceration of its population. America has less than 5% of the world’s people but almost 25% of its prisoners. It imprisons 756 people per 100,000 residents, a rate nearly five times the world average. About one in every 31 adults is either in prison or on parole. Black men have a one-in-three chance of being imprisoned at some point in their lives. “A Leviathan unmatched in human history”, is how Glenn Loury, professor of social studies at Brown University, characterises America’s prison system.

Conditions in the Leviathan’s belly can be brutal. More than 20% of inmates report that they have been sexually assaulted by guards or fellow inmates. Federal prisons are operating at more than 130% of capacity. A sixth of prisoners suffer from mental illness of one sort or another. There are four times as many mentally ill people in prison as in mental hospitals.

As well as being brutal, prisons are ineffective. They may keep offenders off the streets, but they fail to discourage them from offending. Two-thirds of ex-prisoners are re-arrested within three years of being released. The punishment extends to prisoners’ families, too. America’s 1.7m “prison orphans” are six times more likely than their peers to end up in prison themselves. The punishment also sometimes continues after prisoners are released. America is one of only a handful of countries that bar prisoners from voting, and in some states that ban is lifelong: 2% of American adults and 14% of black men are disfranchised because of criminal convictions.

[Jolt]

That is the difference between America and the European States. While American culture values Personal independence over Social Interdependence, Europe does quite the contrary. Bringing the Healthcare example, if you are out of healthcare insurance in America, for whatever reason (Ranging from being so ill stricken that a healthcare insurance's price is astronomical to simply not caring) you're on your own. People don't give a if you die due to healthcare insurance complications. It was your problem. In Europe, you get treated free (Or partially free, paying only a small fee). Likewise if you are in a difficult or handicapped position, in America you can't count on governmental aid to help reduce the gap of your limitations to others (For instance, if you're middle-aged in the USA but you can't find a job in your area of expertise as you're too old, you can't count on the assistence of the government.) While in Europe, you usually find tax bonuses and other assorted incentives for companies to employ the more older unemployed who have a much greater risk of long-term unemployment, which is one of the major causes for concern in an economy. Thus, you see that there is Social Interdependence in Europe, where the government intervenes by giving incentives for the society as a whole to do the right thing.

I usually see a good example for European Socialism: Its like the Jedi Persuasion. The government attempts to encourage society to adopt a certain "stance" in accord with the policy conducted in the government. Of course companies aren't forced to take the incentives the government sets up. I believe the way policy is conducted in Europe (European Socialism as opposed to American Liberalism/Capitalism/Individualism) results in a much fairer society as a whole.

[Kadagar_AV]

Let's see..

A) The government spies on its citizens (Echelon, anyone?).
B) Media is often being cencored (was just recently it was allowed to show troops coming home in body bags again).
C) Censorship against "bad" language on mainstream TV.
D) Second most video camera filled country on earth, watching your every step.
E) Insurance companies has HUGE rights to check medical background and other things (had a depression, dont tell the doctor, your life insurance will cost more!).

I could go on...

But meh!

[AlexanderSextus]

Yeah, I'd say our prison population is a pretty hard strike against us being the "freest." Not a knockout blow, but definitely a hit.

But in one area America is going from strength to strength—the incarceration of its population. America has less than 5% of the world’s people but almost 25% of its prisoners. It imprisons 756 people per 100,000 residents, a rate nearly five times the world average. About one in every 31 adults is either in prison or on parole. Black men have a one-in-three chance of being imprisoned at some point in their lives. “A Leviathan unmatched in human history”, is how Glenn Loury, professor of social studies at Brown University, characterises America’s prison system.

Conditions in the Leviathan’s belly can be brutal. More than 20% of inmates report that they have been sexually assaulted by guards or fellow inmates. Federal prisons are operating at more than 130% of capacity. A sixth of prisoners suffer from mental illness of one sort or another. There are four times as many mentally ill people in prison as in mental hospitals.

As well as being brutal, prisons are ineffective. They may keep offenders off the streets, but they fail to discourage them from offending. Two-thirds of ex-prisoners are re-arrested within three years of being released. The punishment extends to prisoners’ families, too. America’s 1.7m “prison orphans” are six times more likely than their peers to end up in prison themselves. The punishment also sometimes continues after prisoners are released. America is one of only a handful of countries that bar prisoners from voting, and in some states that ban is lifelong: 2% of American adults and 14% of black men are disfranchised because of criminal convictions.

Also consider the fact that a significant amount of the US prison population consists of non-violent drug offenders.

[Meneldil]

Freedom doesn't mean anything.

As the other topic pointed out, each individual has is own view of freedom. For one, it's the right to bear arms, for the other, it's the right to have an abortion, for yet another person, it's the right to believe in a religion.

Most of the time, one person will think that her view of freedom is the right one, while trying to limit other persons's liberty when said liberty goes against her own values (one could think of the freedom to have an abortion, often dismissed by the traditional apostles of 'freedom', but obviously, there are other examples on the other side of the political spectrum - I for myself, despite being a leftist, oppose unlimited freedom of religion).
Freedom is also cultural. For the US, and for the people who admire the US, freedom mostly means little government. For myself, and I think most Europeans, access to a decent healthcare system is also part of 'freedom'.
For a french, unchecked freedom of religion is not freedom. Hence why we are very touchy about laïcité, whether it's related to catholicism or to islam. Yet, as the POTUS rightly pointed out when he visited France in June, the french conception of freedom of religion is not really freedom: people can't do whatever they want and don't give a crap about the rest of the society. Another example of 'my freedom is free-er than yours': I think my freedom to not have to bear with other people's religion is more important than their freedom to show me they're catholic or muslim.

Thing is, the US from their very beginning, have been claiming to be the land of the free, the country of freedom. They created this mythology, and decided to stick to it, even though history has shown repeatedly it's nothing more than a national myth (one could bring up the fate of the native populations, the ACW, the MacCarthysm era and the overall censorship of any communist or socialist idea, the limitations of civic liberties enforced during all the wars fought by the US, the Patriot Act, and the list goes on).

I'm not saying the US have a worse record than any other western country - I don't think they do : European democratic countries have repeatedly trampled freedom when they had to, or thought they had to. I also think the US puts more emphasis on individual freedom, at the expense of society (and I don't think it's a good idea), though it seems to me this individual freedom is strongly kept in check by a wannabe police state.
What I'm saying is that the myth of the the US as the most free state in the world is just another national myth, which really has little ground. Just like France (which is in many ways a country similar to the US) likes to present herself as the country of the Human Rights (tm), and as history shown us, this is quite a big joke.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Freedom doesn't mean anything.

As the other topic pointed out, each individual has is own view of freedom. For one, it's the right to bear arms, for the other, it's the right to have an abortion, for yet another person, it's the right to believe in a religion.
[...]
What I'm saying is that the myth of the the US as the most free state in the world is just another national myth, which really has little ground. Just like France (which is in many ways a country similar to the US) likes to present herself as the country of the Human Rights (tm), and as history shown us, this is quite a big joke.

Yes, that's pretty much it. Freedom is relative, it depends a good deal on what one considers freedom.

If I have a definition, I'll give an answer to the question of whether America is the most free - as measured by that definition.


In absolute terms, applying a gut definition of freedom: for all its imperfections, America has been remarkably succesful in providing a better life, for more of its citizens, for a longer period of time, than, let's say: 'a whole host of other countries who broadly apply the same definitions of succes and freedom as the US'.

[Tribesman]

Freedom is relative

So that means west virginia must be the most free place on earth, after all if its all relative its all free

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4594392/

[Hax]

That is the difference between America and the European States. While American culture values Personal independence over Social Interdependence, Europe does quite the contrary. Bringing the Healthcare example, if you are out of healthcare insurance in America, for whatever reason (Ranging from being so ill stricken that a healthcare insurance's price is astronomical to simply not caring) you're on your own. People don't give a if you die due to healthcare insurance complications.

Besides, what's the use of freedom if you're dead/severely ill?