Europe

[Louis VI the Fat]

ah new europe, how i love thee.

Czechs playing silly buggers with the EU constitution until the Tories get back in:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6841622.ece

As a champion of 'national sovereignity', aren't you at least a wee bit dismayed that the Czechs will not take this decision for themselves, but will let the Tories make it for them?


What a bunch of spineless weaklings. I say they missed an excellent opportunity to remain silent.


Edit, as to the other article: Yes, I too am very pleased that the German constitutional court deemed 'Lisbon' in accordance with the German constitution.
The court also stated that the EU must be democratically accountable. This in itself is neither pro nor against further European integration. It means that either the national or the European Parliament must have clear powers of control. In other words, this verdict opens the way for a fully functioning European parliament! Yay! Now if only we could convince the sceptics and the national sovereignists to grant it these powers of democratic control!

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

As a champion of 'national sovereignity', aren't you at least a wee bit dismayed that the Czechs will not take this decision for themselves, but will let the Tories make it for them?

They are taking it themselves, instead of bowing to pressure from Sarkozy's "consequences."* Not ratifying the treaty and trying to work with other nations freely is a lot more in the vein of national sovereignty than accepting the treaty because the European Commission told you to.

*Hopefully.

[Furunculus]

As a champion of 'national sovereignty', aren't you at least a wee bit dismayed that the Czechs will not take this decision for themselves, but will let the Tories make it for them?
What a bunch of spineless weaklings. I say they missed an excellent opportunity to remain silent.


Edit, as to the other article: Yes, I too am very pleased that the German constitutional court deemed 'Lisbon' in accordance with the German constitution.
The court also stated that the EU must be democratically accountable. This in itself is neither pro nor against further European integration. It means that either the national or the European Parliament must have clear powers of control. In other words, this verdict opens the way for a fully functioning European parliament! Yay! Now if only we could convince the sceptics and the national sovereignists to grant it these powers of democratic control!

tribeman has asked a similar question in the past (about 8 pages back), and it displays the same lack of understanding about what national sovereignty means to me, so to answer; no i don't care about what another sovereign nation does because it is not my sovereign nation. regardless of which, it is hardly an act of weakness on their part.

i too am delighted, because at the end of the day i want a EU that we can live with, and one that is constitutionally subservient to national parliaments is one i can live with. if germany actually enforces this ruling and other significant nations adopt the same stance then we will have made a good start towards preventing a federalised europe.

[gaelic cowboy]

The irony is that for smaller weaker countries national sovereignty is probably enhanced by entry into the EU because the rules are setup to make it so at least it is now anyway.

I thinking specifically here of my own country we entered the EU because your own country entered it we had no choice entry to English markets for our goods is too important. However our leaders probably hoped we might be able to remove the last vestiges of economic control the UK had on us by access to an even bigger market.

Course all it really did was increase the trade between us but hey it was a good thing for us at the time and its still pretty good now.

Now the fun part of the ride is over and all the stuff were asked to vote on these days is more technical and quite frankly beyond this mere mortal which is why the NO to Lisbon crowd is having a field day telling lies while at the same the YES side tell us just as big a load of lies.

I hope that the conservative grouping gets down to making the EU work better and not simply blocking I suspect they are there to work as I cannot imagine the UK is seriously considering any nuclear option.

I said it already but strategically the UK cannot allow itself to be outside the decisions in Europe so the UK will continue to have a love hate hate relationship with the EU.

[Furunculus]

The irony is that for smaller weaker countries national sovereignty is probably enhanced by entry into the EU because the rules are setup to make it so at least it is now anyway.

I thinking specifically here of my own country we entered the EU because your own country entered it we had no choice entry to English markets for our goods is too important. However our leaders probably hoped we might be able to remove the last vestiges of economic control the UK had on us by access to an even bigger market.

Course all it really did was increase the trade between us but hey it was a good thing for us at the time and its still pretty good now.

Now the fun part of the ride is over and all the stuff were asked to vote on these days is more technical and quite frankly beyond this mere mortal which is why the NO to Lisbon crowd is having a field day telling lies while at the same the YES side tell us just as big a load of lies.

I hope that the conservative grouping gets down to making the EU work better and not simply blocking I suspect they are there to work as I cannot imagine the UK is seriously considering any nuclear option.

I said it already but strategically the UK cannot allow itself to be outside the decisions in Europe so the UK will continue to have a love hate hate relationship with the EU.

you know what, you are right, but i wasn't aware that the UK was a smaller weaker country.

probably a good reason, in your position i'd support it too (taken from the chippy point of view).

so we weren't so bad after all.

beyond the lies, what kind of EU do YOU want? is it a federal state, or an association of cooperating sovereign nations?

me too. i don't want to knacker the EU, i just want to knacker a federal EU*.

i think you overestimate the importance of the EU countries, we're on the decline economically and militarily, and the UK is still big enough and global enough to be a useful partner to those still on the up.




* as long as we intend to be inside it.

[Furunculus]

....

[gaelic cowboy]

i think you overestimate the importance of the EU countries, we're on the decline economically and militarily, and the UK is still big enough and global enough to be a useful partner to those still on the up.

I dont really see the EU ever really been anything more than an economic power the hard power the will be jealously guarded by UK and France.

Many people still see the decline of Europe as some kind of disaster for us as people however the British Empire in terms of size and military power was massive in year 1900 and didnt exist in year 2000 yet the UK of 2000 would wipe the 1900 version off the map in every sense.

Decline in power is not neccesarily the death of a country.

beyond the lies, what kind of EU do YOU want? is it a federal state, or an association of cooperating sovereign nations?

Well cooperating states of course the problem as I can see it is people have vastly differant views on cooperation across the EU as a whole

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Cooperation should be achieved through free trade, a network of military alliances, and perhaps free borders. Anything much more than that is fundamentally dangerous to the national sovereignty of the nations in Europe.

[Beskar]

Cooperation should be achieved through free trade, a network of military alliances, and perhaps free borders. Anything much more than that is fundamentally dangerous to the national sovereignty of the nations in Europe.

Like national sovereignty actually means anything more than petty people drawing lines in the sand.