That's What Katanas Are For

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

If all they do is refusing to leave, it would obviously be an excessive use of violence.

I didn't say kill them, I said use of violence, meaning forcibly removing them from your home if necessary.

[Hax]

But in practical daily criminal news in my country, anyone that you can prove he/she was trying to rob your house, or do some harm with you or your family, may be killed on self defence, and that was completely legal. Actually it was an old, unmodified old Dutch law.

But you have to have some discernment. <snip> Anyways, people feel the need to check out a suspicious noise all the time, and more often than not they bring something with them, just in case. Well, this time it so happened that someone really was in there.

You misunderstand "consequence". Every action has consequences. If you kill a burglar, even if it was in self-defense, perhaps you will suffer nightmares for a few weeks/months straight. If you kill a burglar, and you are convincted on the charge of murder, you will have to go to prison. If you kill a burglar, you will have to clean the bloodstains from your carpet.

All actions have their consequences. Think instead, what would be the best action to take? If you kill him, in an instinctical reaction, you are not to be blamed. Nor is the burglar, in another situation perhaps you would have done something else. Killing people should be avoided at all times.

[Viking]

I didn't say kill them, I said use of violence, meaning forcibly removing them from your home if necessary.

As I meant. Beating someone up because they refuse to get out of your house, appears in most cases to be well over the top. Dragging him out or dumping him outside, OTOH...something which isn't really violence anyway.

[Hax]

I'd rather deal with the nightmares of having to kill someone, than my family or I laying dead or brutalized and I could have prevented it. I'd that the former anyday over the latter.

Thing is, burglars are usually not murderers. I think (!) that a burglar would rather escape than attack, if he was found.

[Cute Wolf]

Thing is, burglars are usually not murderers. I think (!) that a burglar would rather escape than attack, if he was found.

Bet your home / whatever place that you life.... is never get a burglar inside......
You simply never encountered a real life burglars!

I know that both of us still unmarried and didn't have a child, but consider this hypothetical case:
(not only hax, but other orgah's especially who allready had a child could answer it)

You are a father, and you life with your wife and an infant son. One day, you hear some noise arround your garage and decide to check that. On your way, you could grab a potentially lethal weapon (guns, axes, blades, spears or big forks), and you know how to end someone's life with it rather effectively. As you walk silently to your garage, you spotted a man, trying to pick your door, or allready carried some loot, moves arround suspiciously to your little son's bedroom, where your wife and your son are sleeping. To one point of extreme, your wife is such a coward, even with weapons on her hands, tend to scream and cry like a kitten, and your infant son... couldn't defend himself. As you see more clearly, that burglar was carrying a weapon that you recognize as a gun. You are capable to launch a surprise attack once, and with that weapons on your hands, you are sure that your "surprise attack" could end in killing or permanently maiming that burglar....... but IF you don't attack, and just yelling at that guy, he'll eventually find your son, and maybe use him as hostage..... which one did you'll take? Killing that burglar now, or call the police, and let the bad guy found your son?


IF I were that guy in defense of the home, I'll act as a good father that protect my son, and try my best to decapitate that burglar with my axe/blade..... Even if I life in some areas with ridiculous law such as some country. I'll rather spent my time in prison rather than see he hurts (emotional hurts are even worse... remember the boy are infant!) or worse, kills my family.

[Hax]

I will answer for myself now; I have taken a vow to reduce the amount of suffering in the world. First, I would try to talk to him, telling that if he dropped everything, I would let him go without calling the police (for example), and just try to coerce him into leaving in a non-violent way.

If that would not succeed, I would probably try and assault him in a way that could not have permanent consequences (physically, that is). Break a leg or an arm in the the worst case, something that will incapacitate him for the moment, but can be healed eventually.

I will not murder anyone for breaking into my house, I'm sorry.

[Fragony]

axe -> face

It isn't murder when someone breaks into your house. Not going to gamble with my life, so his will have to go.

[Cute Wolf]

I will answer for myself now; I have taken a vow to reduce the amount of suffering in the world. First, I would try to talk to him, telling that if he dropped everything, I would let him go without calling the police (for example), and just try to coerce him into leaving in a non-violent way.

And the worst things is he charges at you, and killing you while your mouth is still talking.....

If that would not succeed, I would probably try and assault him in a way that could not have permanent consequences (physically, that is). Break a leg or an arm in the the worst case, something that will incapacitate him for the moment, but can be healed eventually.

I will not murder anyone for breaking into my house, I'm sorry.

This was a better option.... aim for the right hand..... a maimed limb could be re-attached if you call ambulance in 24 hours.... while you store the burglar's hand in your freezer

[Furunculus]

I will answer for myself now; I have taken a vow to reduce the amount of suffering in the world.

I have come to a self understanding (not as official as a vow) that I have zero tolerance for other people interfering unduly in my life, and in the interest of; do unto others as you would have them do unto you I will not unduly interfere in anyone else's life.

If someone else is so damnably rude as to unduly interfere in my personal life then all bets are off, they rely totally on my good nature and self restraint for whatever consequence ensues; be that a barked "@^*k off!" directed at some street oik shouting abuse, or be it physical violence directed at someone who has been caught burgling my house and refuses to leave instantly and without my property.

[Hax]

I do remember one case where a guy spent 15 minutes breaking into his ex's house and battering down her bedroom door, having expressed certain intentions.

Well, the intentions are clearly different.

And the worst things is he charges at you, and killing you while your mouth is still talking.....

Be serious, please. That would be a completely illogical action, if we're honest.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I will answer for myself now; I have taken a vow to reduce the amount of suffering in the world. First, I would try to talk to him, telling that if he dropped everything, I would let him go without calling the police (for example), and just try to coerce him into leaving in a non-violent way.

If that would not succeed, I would probably try and assault him in a way that could not have permanent consequences (physically, that is). Break a leg or an arm in the the worst case, something that will incapacitate him for the moment, but can be healed eventually.

I will not murder anyone for breaking into my house, I'm sorry.

Two people had recently been murdered by burglars in that area. You can't really reduce suffering in the world by letting yourself be killed.

Granted there are some people in this thread who are a bit gung-ho about it, but you are too far the other way imo.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You are a father, and you life with your wife and an infant son. One day, you hear some noise arround your garage and decide to check that. On your way, you could grab a potentially lethal weapon (guns, axes, blades, spears or big forks), and you know how to end someone's life with it rather effectively. As you walk silently to your garage, you spotted a man, trying to pick your door, or allready carried some loot, moves arround suspiciously to your little son's bedroom, where your wife and your son are sleeping. To one point of extreme, your wife is such a coward, even with weapons on her hands, tend to scream and cry like a kitten, and your infant son... couldn't defend himself. As you see more clearly, that burglar was carrying a weapon that you recognize as a gun. You are capable to launch a surprise attack once, and with that weapons on your hands, you are sure that your "surprise attack" could end in killing or permanently maiming that burglar....... but IF you don't attack, and just yelling at that guy, he'll eventually find your son, and maybe use him as hostage..... which one did you'll take? Killing that burglar now, or call the police, and let the bad guy found your son?

I'd be carrying a stick, and I'd crack him on the back of the head. Your scenario assumes the burgler has picked or forced the lock, so he's already inside and I am therefore between him and my family, or I've let him get past me.

At no point would I be so stupid as to allow someone to get between me and those I love. I wouldn't put myself in such a stupid situation. Further, such a pathetic woman as the one you describe almost certainly wouldn't stay with a man capable of killing, unless out of fear.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

As I meant. Beating someone up because they refuse to get out of your house, appears in most cases to be well over the top. Dragging him out or dumping him outside, OTOH...something which isn't really violence anyway.

I was talking about dragging the individual outside, which is violence in my opinion. The only way you would ever hit them in that case would be if they hit you first.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

The only way you would ever hit them in that case would be if they hit you first.

If they hit you first... doesn't that bring a strong possibility of incapacitation?

I won't call the police until AFTER I get shot!

I'd be carrying a stick, and I'd crack him on the back of the head. Your scenario assumes the burgler has picked or forced the lock, so he's already inside and I am therefore between him and my family, or I've let him get past me.

At no point would I be so stupid as to allow someone to get between me and those I love. I wouldn't put myself in such a stupid situation. Further, such a pathetic woman as the one you describe almost certainly wouldn't stay with a man capable of killing, unless out of fear.

But in all this you're assuming that you control the environment.

Of course you wouldn't put yourself in a bad position. But the fact is that it's the CRIMINAL who initiates and thus determines your position. Could be good or could be bad, depending on his planning.

Furthermore, if a burglar enters at night, you have to be aware of his entry to BEGIN with, and there are ways to enter a house without making noise. Furthermore, the only way that you could HOPE to be on par with the burglar physically is if you are alert, which is unlikely if you've just woken up.

Also, to whack a burglar on the back of the head? Either somehow you got behind him, which means you're no longer between him and your family, or you pulled a really nice move. A move that means you are sacrificing leverage to reach around him and whack him, which also means that you are close to him which also makes you very vulnerable.

So your in a terrible tactical situation using methods that are almost self defeating.

You know, if your plan of action is doomed to disaster when you've been sitting at home in comfort thinking it out, don't you think that if the real time came and you had a split-second decision to make, the odds are it wouldn't work?

Plan B: Firearm. Those problems disappear. You have only to point and he will probably obey, unless he has one of his own, in case you're REALLY lucky you have one too or you'd be a goner guaranteed. And if you don't think bad guys can get bad things that they're not allowed to have, well... welcome to planet earth. :)

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

If they hit you first... doesn't that bring a strong possibility of incapacitation?

I won't call the police until AFTER I get shot!

I was talking about if you're removing someone from your home who you invited there, something went wrong (maybe they snapped and went crazy about something), and when in the process of dragging them outside they hit you or try to fight, you hit back.

In a case of someone being in your house univited, you identify your target and then take appropriate measures to neutralize the threat, starting immediately.

[Ariovistus Maximus]

I was talking about if you're removing someone from your home who you invited there, something went wrong (maybe they snapped and went crazy about something), and when in the process of dragging them outside they hit you or try to fight, you hit back.

Oh. heh heh.



Wonderful thing, context.

Sorry, I didn't realize.

[Azathoth]

I'd just like to present this clip to the discussion: