The Warpath Campaign Expansion DLC

[Zenicetus]

from wikipedia. no tehy were not first to build submarines, and they were technologically inferior. fewer factories=technological inferiority.

No, I didn't say the South was the first to build submarines, I said they were the first to sink a ship in combat with a submarine. It's about technological parity, which is a different from the industrial power to back it up.

These weren't two countries in conflict, it was the same country, with the same military traditions and technology divided against itself. Fewer factories does not mean technological inferiority.

The Spaniards arriving in the New World with horses, plate armor and firearms and going up against the Aztecs... that's a case of technological inferiority. It's ridiculous to apply that phrase to the U.S. Civil War (IMO).

[Fisherking]

We may want to get back on topic now.

If you want to re-fight the American Civil War then the Monastery or the Back Room would be good places.

[Graphic]

OK back on topic :)

I don't see the problem people have with a Native American campaign. North America was the most active theater outside of Europe in this time period, and Natives were a constant nuisance to "the white man" and a very important aspect to consider when it came to strategy and politics. This is not out of place in an 18th century war game by any stretch of the imagination. For those that don't feel like playing as the Natives, chances are GB, France, Spain and the U.S. will be playable too.

Anyway I just think it's really cool. I always thought it'd be cool to play as Natives in any kind of game, especially Total War. They gave us a little taste with the Apache in Kingdoms: Americas but this is the ultimate gift.

And yes this probably does resonate with most American fans, and I'm sure that's not a coincidence With Steam involved its hard to get accurate sales numbers, but ETW was #1 on the North American PC charts, I get the feeling it sold a lot here.

[Dradem]

like the fact of the new DLC, won't buy it the first day though (I'm on holliday at that point )

just wondering about the map if it is a seprate campaign why didn't they include the Western part of North America?

and will there be parts of the map and factions included in the grand campaign?

[Prussian to the Iron]

it is just the standard america map from the GC, with some different provinces (I think), so there'd be no point in adding it to the GC map.

honestly, I would prefer an add-on that adds the new buildings, units, factions, etc. to the GC, ratehr than a sepeerate campaign.

[Graphic]

it is just the standard america map from the GC, with some different provinces (I think), so there'd be no point in adding it to the GC map.

It fills in the empty space in North America with lots of provinces. I'd be surprised if those weren't added to the GC.

[Prussian to the Iron]

oh? well I didn't look at the provinces much; my main concern is that california is nowhere to be found.

[Sheogorath]

oh? well I didn't look at the provinces much; my main concern is that california is nowhere to be found.

Yeah. CA really needs to get on the map updates. I don't think I've seen anybody say "Gee, I really wish there was a campaign focusing on native americans."

I've seen LOTS of people saying "Gee, it'd be really nice of the America/Asia map was extended" or "Gee, it'd be really nice if Africa/South America existed."

[Graphic]

Except Africa and East Asia weren't active theaters in the 18th century. South America would be pointless and boring because all it would be is a bunch of Spanish and Portuguese colonies.

North America was the most active theater outside of Europe in Empire's time period. That's a fact.

Some people want a WW2 Total War, but that wouldn't fit with Empire; same concept. Africa would fit better in NTW depending on how far it goes.

[Crazed Rabbit]

This is neat.

So when will the alpha version I bought be upgraded to a beta?

You know, I bought Mount & Blade four years ago for $12 dollars. And for four years the handful (as in, less than six) developers kept on updating and improving it. And I never had to pay more for it. Now the feature list is far expanded beyond what was dreamed of four years ago. All for $12 - heck, I even got into the closed beta for the multiplayer (!) expansion.

And I will buy that expansion the day it comes out, whatever it costs. That's how loyal I feel to Taleworlds, the developers behind M&B. They gave me a great product for a great price and continuous improvement.

And then...we have CA and E:TW. A game that was in the alpha state when it shipped. Where nations couldn't even do amphibious attacks! And the game still isn't fixed!

So, I find myself asking, what is this? They're slapping together a few new things, even though they haven't fixed the original.

And I'm expected to pay for this?! I'm supposed to pay for an update that may improve the game I bought for $50, like a chump, to a decent state!?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!

CR

[Veho Nex]

I second CR

[Peasant Phill]

I see no merit in buying something a modder could do as well. It's the same reason I didn't buy special forces or elites of the West. Now if the expansion would involve improved gameplay or additional features, that would be something else. Now we're getting paying for a new map and some extra units (for a campaign I most likely won't be playing more than twice).

[Durallan]

why would putting in africa south america and those regions not be related to empire? its hard enough getting enough room to expand without having some fun extra areas for that extra bit of income, it would be nice to have more regions that the AI and player could use for more territory and as a result more battles, World War 2 didn't cover the entire entire globe anyway, whats the difference in adding some regions so that I can haves more fun? What Peasant Phil above said, why pay for something a modder can do, what a modder can't do is add whole new region zones or a world map, theyve already got a good half of the world done already whats so hard about the rest? they don't have to add every single part its not like the himalayas were thoroughly colonised.

[Graphic]

It's because Europe didn't really kick African colonization into high gear until the 1880s. Large scale of colonization of East Asia didn't start until the latter half of the 19th century as well. This all took place during "new imperialism" (look it up) which is way out of Empire's league. I would love to explore these areas in a Total War game too, but the fact is if they added them to Empire it would be pure fantasy in it's very inception, and then they just piss off the "realism first" crowd. They're always going to piss off some crowd or another, so I can see why they'd play it safe here. Warpath fits the engine, the period, and history (by Total War standards), has lots of factions with relatively equal territory to begin with all setting out to conquer everyone else - it's the essence of Total War. And to be blunt, since they're selling it for the change in your couch, it makes sense to build on existing content.

[Tsavong]

So when will the alpha version I bought be upgraded to a beta?

Nonsense Empire was not an alpha when it came out and nor was it a beta yes it had problems but most people can run the game and the have improved it a lot over the months with patches, four so far.

And I'm expected to pay for this?! I'm supposed to pay for an update that may improve the game I bought for $50, like a chump, to a decent state!?

No your not expected to pay for the update the update (1.4) was free and came out on Tuesday. What you are expected to pay £6 for is an optional add-on campaign.

[Durallan]

well it might be the change in your couch in the US UK or EU, but things cost a little bit more over here in Australia, at any rate I'm rather tired of Realism first (can get a mod for it if one must have complete realism), Empire never claimed to be completely historically correct, obviously it wants to get as much right as possible, (war elephants in scotland doesn't really work out so well) and the Game goes up to 1800, why not extend the grand campaign in that case and then add new areas for people to mess around with, I only ever play the grand campaign, I didn't really find 4 different campaigns fun in kingdoms because I want the whole map to interact with, so I play the Grand Campaign. I realise that we want the starting point to be historically accurate, but what if my empire discovers Australia before Holland? or someone finds something before the Dutch, I also happen to like alternate realities, because if I just wanted to replay history I'd go through all the historical battles and try to play them out like they happened in real life. No nation would become a super power and no one would win the game because europe is still a bunch of different nations today. Even if most of the areas were barren but still just had enough that they were worth fighting for and it would give minor nations a chance? maybe, at any rate

its not like what I want to happen is what is going to happen but I would be willing to pay around 50 bucks australian for another nice expansion of the global campaign, possible different time starts, expanded map, etc rather than a seperate campaign, because I just figure where is the point? you don't get to interact with europe which seems a bit of a waste and you might as well buy Civ 4: Colonization in that case lol

[Fisherking]

I doubt that they will add new regions or theaters to the game as it stands.

I am guessing of course, but it was limited because of system requirement as I understand it. That is why we have blank spaces on the map. If it were not than we would have Switzerland and who knows what else.

Now I do expect that there are more regions in the DLC Campaign. As most of the world won’t be there it should not be a problem. There will also likely be other factions but not playable it would seem.

Whether the units and technologies make it in to the Grand Campaign is anyone’s guess. Also who is to say there won't be more DLC Campaigns.

1.4 has fixed a lot and made the game fun again (IMO) so Warpath is something I might consider...we can talk about NTW in a few months and see what has been added to ETW and how it is working.

[Slaists]

I doubt that they will add new regions or theaters to the game as it stands.

I am guessing of course, but it was limited because of system requirement as I understand it. That is why we have blank spaces on the map. If it were not than we would have Switzerland and who knows what else.

Now I do expect that there are more regions in the DLC Campaign. As most of the world won’t be there it should not be a problem. There will also likely be other factions but not playable it would seem.

Whether the units and technologies make it in to the Grand Campaign is anyone’s guess. Also who is to say there won't be more DLC Campaigns.

1.4 has fixed a lot and made the game fun again (IMO) so Warpath is something I might consider...we can talk about NTW in a few months and see what has been added to ETW and how it is working.

What's up with that province number limitation? Take Europa Universalis, for example, they have the whole world covered with their map and the number of provinces is definitely much higher than in ETW. So, technically, it's doable.

[Beskar]

I got a question.

They are expanding the North America terrorities, right? Does this mean all of North America is now avaible, or did they just put regions in the empty spaces?

Will the new regions/expanded areas be put into the normal grand campaign area? (if you own the dlc, at least)

[Zenicetus]

I doubt that they will add new regions or theaters to the game as it stands.

I am guessing of course, but it was limited because of system requirement as I understand it. That is why we have blank spaces on the map. If it were not than we would have Switzerland and who knows what else.

Yep, and even if it's not a strict RAM limit, adding more regions/factions means more CPU cycles. So another way of saying it is -- "How long does everyone want to wait for the AI moves to process between turns?"

There is also a question of how additional regions and factions might affect diplomacy. It's taken this long, and some false starts with early patches, for diplomacy to be even remotely predictable. Adding more factions might upset whatever balance they've been able to achieve in the 1.4 patch.

What's up with that province number limitation? Take Europa Universalis, for example, they have the whole world covered with their map and the number of provinces is definitely much higher than in ETW. So, technically, it's doable.

It would only be "technically doable" if they bought and used EU's code base. ETW is a different game, and the AI is crunching different data between moves.

I got a question.

They are expanding the North America terrorities, right? Does this mean all of North America is now avaible, or did they just put regions in the empty spaces?

Will the new regions/expanded areas be put into the normal grand campaign area? (if you own the dlc, at least)

From what I've seen (someone correct me if it's wrong) this is a standalone mini-campaign on a separate map, and doesn't plug into the grand campaign. That's what they did with the M2TW expansion too: standalone mini-campaigns. For a small-scale DLC like this, it means CA doesn't have to spend the additional balancing and play-testing time to fold it into the main campaign without breaking it.

The Warpath teaser video shows Indians charging with lances and tomahawks right into European rifle fire. They probably have firearms too (and I bet that's one reason why guns can now be fired and loaded on horseback in the 1.4 patch, yay Hollywood movies!), but it seems pretty melee-intensive. The new native tech tree probably has some mumbo jumbo to beef up their melee and native ranged weapons, so they can compete on a more level ground with the European colonists... maybe drive them off the continent, if that's the campaign goal.

If that's actually what the mini-expansion is like, then I'm not sure we'd want those Indians added to the grand campaign. They're annoying enough as it is. :)

[Discoman]

I saw US Marines fighting in the trailer. So is CA giving as part of the new DLC?

[Prussian to the Iron]

seriously! Hellz yah! Can't wait to spam the hell out of them and own some noobs!

too bad we can't fight the barbarys...

[Beskar]

I be honest, it would be pretty amazing if the Native American "Indians" came to power and threw out the Europeans aided by the Indians (from India).

[antisocialmunky]

It depends on if the player is India or not :).

[Zenicetus]

I be honest, it would be pretty amazing if the Native American "Indians" came to power and threw out the Europeans aided by the Indians (from India).

The teaser video seems to suggest that kicking out the Europeans is the goal. Or maybe it's just a "last stand" thing where you consolidate and hold X number of territories until the campaign clock runs out.

It might be fun, but I don't know how they could take back the continent without either becoming fantasy units with superhuman powers (which is sort of what the video clip looks like), or being co-opted as allies of European nations, like those units with Indians toting muskets and wearing uniforms.

It could be semi-realistic if they set the clock back far enough to the 16th and 17th Century, before the big towns were settled on the Eastern seaboard and industries supporting big colonial armies kicked into gear. The Calusa and other aggressive tribes made most of Florida uninhabitable for the Europeans until they died out from disease or economic displacement. They were never actually conquered; they were too tough for even the Conquistadors to mess with. That could be a model for the rest of North America, but only if the tribes get organized early enough.

[Prussian to the Iron]

guerilla warfare and not accepting blankets from your enemies are 2 time-proven methods of fighting a superior enemy.

I personally choose the M2 americas campaign over this. more indian factions instead of europeans, less guns, warpath crusades. i like the age of gunpowder, but a few factions with it is enough.

honestly, i think the only way to really effectively beat the europeans is to send some archers as far as you can from them, then as they are about to shoot, flank with cavalry. once they make squares, charge in with infantry and youve won.

[Nelson]

The Calusa and other aggressive tribes made most of Florida uninhabitable for the Europeans until they died out from disease or economic displacement. They were never actually conquered; they were too tough for even the Conquistadors to mess with.

Florida wasn't very appealing to Europeans as there was little wealth or valuable land to use. The Spanish had many other more profitable places to settle and exploit in the New World. So I doubt that the locals were too tough to handle. They just weren't worth the trouble when easier pickings were available.

I think the best course for Native Americans would have been to immediately bushwhack and wipe out every group of Europeans that showed up. Pretend to be friendly then get the drop on them without letting anyone get back to Europe. Burn the ships and let the English and Spanish etc. wonder what happened. With hindsight, it was their only chance.

[Noncommunist]

guerilla warfare and not accepting blankets from your enemies are 2 time-proven methods of fighting a superior enemy.

I personally choose the M2 americas campaign over this. more indian factions instead of europeans, less guns, warpath crusades. i like the age of gunpowder, but a few factions with it is enough.

honestly, i think the only way to really effectively beat the europeans is to send some archers as far as you can from them, then as they are about to shoot, flank with cavalry. once they make squares, charge in with infantry and youve won.

Or just not breathing the same air as the Europeans. I'm pretty sure most of the infections that killed off a vast majority of the amerindians were simply accidental and that the blankets only were given in a few cases.

[antisocialmunky]

Well the Native Americans also didn't really realize the intent of the Europeans and were too decimated later on to drive them into the sea. It wasn't like Amerindians didn't have the power, they just didn't have any concept of what was going on and let the Europeans get entrenched. A similar thing happened in Mexico when all those tribes destroyed the Aztecs - they didn't realize that the strangers who got them to do it were going to come enmasse and enslave them all. South America was decimated by civil war so they weren't able to do too much against dick Spaniards killing their king.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Nonsense Empire was not an alpha when it came out and nor was it a beta yes it had problems but most people can run the game and the have improved it a lot over the months with patches, four so far.

It's an alpha when fundamental game features are not implemented - that is, sea invasions by the AI, and when the whole AI is a mess.

Florida wasn't very appealing to Europeans as there was little wealth or valuable land to use. The Spanish had many other more profitable places to settle and exploit in the New World. So I doubt that the locals were too tough to handle.

The United States fought three wars with the Seminoles (1817 to 1818; 1835 to 1842; and 1855 to 1858) and even at the end of that they weren't able to get them out of Florida. So I think in that case the locals may indeed have been to tough to handle.

CR