German elections return a centre-right government

[Crazed Rabbit]

Because there's a lot of social mobility, especially for those who work hard to improve their situation.

CR

[Strike For The South]

It doesn't though. If you are born middle class, you generally stay middle class, if you are born working, you generally stay working class, if you are born upper class, you generally stay upper class, if you are born unworking class, you generally stay unworking class.

There is basically almost no social movability.

All Europeans live off the welfare system and Americas defense systems

[jabarto]

Because there's a lot of social mobility, especially for those who work hard to improve their situation.

CR

Hahahahahano.

[Strike For The South]

Hahahahahano.

I have some people who would disagree with you.

[jabarto]

I have some people who would disagree with you.

And I know people who are working multiple jobs and still can barely make their bills, despite all their hard work. American Dream INDEED.

[Strike For The South]

And I know people who are working multiple jobs and still can barely make their bills, despite all their hard work. American Dream INDEED.

The decisons we make have allot to do with our financials. Working multiple jobs could just as eaisly be an indicator of someone who blows money on garden gnomes.

To say the USA (a country of 300 million mind you) has much less mobility than the rest of the west is disingenous at best.

[Husar]

But the US certainly hijacked a thread about german elections...
You can't deny their topical mobility.

That said, the US has a minimum wage, Germany doesn't, that makes the US the commies.

[Fragony]

To say the USA (a country of 300 million mind you) has much less mobility than the rest of the west is disingenous at best.

There is something to say for it, has nothing to do with your way of life but just because it's BIG, social inequality can't be prevented. If you are born in a bad place in America you are worse of than in other western country's. There is no shame in that it's not an inherent flaw in your system, it would be impossible to guaranty a universal standard of living; in Western Europe things are much more compact.

[Husar]

There is something to say for it, has nothing to do with your way of life but just because it's BIG, social inequality can't be prevented. If you are born in a bad place in America you are worse of than in other western country's. There is no shame in that it's not an inherent flaw in your system, it would be impossible to guaranty a universal standard of living; in Western Europe things are much more compact.

That sounds like your typical defeatist attitude and is in complete contrast with all that supposedly makes out the USA, basically a struggle to be the best in everything, if they have poorer people than Europe then they clearly failed in that respect and instead of just accepting that they should use their genius, their unbendable will and their great hearts to fix that problem and land on top of the world. That's what the USA are about, not just admitting defeat and saying it can't be helped, that kinda attitude would have made them a japanese colony by now.

[Vladimir]

But the US certainly hijacked a thread about german elections...
You can't deny their topical mobility.

That said, the US has a minimum wage, Germany doesn't, that makes the US the commies.

You're right; enough about the US.

So...How will the German elections affect relations with the US?

Frankly, I'm glad to see her remain in power. Someone said it best regarding boring politicians. I'll take one Merkel over three Obamas any day. I'm not sure how Germany has done it but it appears they are faring relatively well during this economic crisis. I believe one reason for this is that Germany has a better cultural or economic identity. The US is struggling with socialism vs. capitalism, the UK unitary system is starting to crack, and France has its problems with the second-generation immigrants.

In all, I still wouldn't mind retiring to Belgium.

[Strike For The South]

But the US certainly hijacked a thread about german elections...
You can't deny their topical mobility.

We get it. Le Pen won, good for the fatherland.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Gah, sorry, I mixed up NDP with The Left. I believe they do have a seat, do they not?

No, the NPD kept roughly their vote share from last election. They have seats in various Landtags. Die Linke gained seats in the Bundestag. Sadly.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Die Linke gained seats in the Bundestag. Sadly.

See?? I knew the Germans loved the Soviet Rule!!! Deep down, all of you liked our communism.

If you remained alive that is...

That said, the Germans were treated as the top priority by the Soviets. I am not saying life was great or good in East Germany, but believe me, the subsidies and pampering was comparatively immense. USSR knew Germans were used to higher standards and that they had more choice than Russian citizens.

In USSR, Russians got the least, then came the other "Republics", after that came nations Czechoslovakia, Baltic Republics as well as Poland, and on the top was East Germany. Many Russians came back from Poland or Baltic amazed at how much better the life was there, how many things were available for sale compared to the more meagre Russian department stores.

Also, many Russians moved to Ukraine or Moldova, because once again, more subsidies were given to other republics. In no manner I am suggesting USSR was altruistic, it is just that they knew that while Russians had no choice but their own government, the other nations could rebel, something that was more crucial in Eastern Block Allies and very crucial for East Germany. And of course, the living standards were still behind Western countries, although there was more equality in USSR (yes, I know high-level Party members dined on caviar and drank fine scotch, but in general, you had few divisions).

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

See?? I knew the Germans loved the Soviet Rule!!! Deep down, all of you liked our communism.

Ostalgia. Lots of people in the East are incapable of looking back and seeing just how much worse off they were. That and the SPD is weak in many places in the East, making Die Linke the go-to leftist party.

Interestingly enough East Germany was probably one of the most spied-on Eastern countries (by the State).

That said, the Germans were treated as the top priority by the Soviets. I am not saying life was great or good in East Germany, but believe me, the subsidies and pampering was comparatively immense. USSR knew Germans were used to higher standards and that they had more choice than Russian citizens.

This is true, personal experience of mine certainly backs this up.

[Louis VI the Fat]

[on support for Die Linke]
See?? I knew the Germans loved the Soviet Rule!!! Deep down, all of you liked our communism.

No sympathy for communism from me. But...it was also twenty years ago. Nations move on, people need to move on. West Germany wasn't fully denazified either.

A whole lot of Germany can be traced back to dictatorial times. To however dismiss everything originating or supported by previous dictatorships would be a dead-end street. Die Linke may draw heavily on Ostalgia, and have an altogether too large communist influence, but it also enjoys support from a democratic leftist electorate.


Both Germany's got a fine deal after the war. The Eastern Bloc used the GDR (? - East Germany) as a 'showcase'. The West needed to prop up the GFR(? - West Germany) to prevent the rest of Europe of being turned into a showcase for communism too.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Ostalgia.

I would and do understand the manifestation of this in former Soviet Republics, but Germany?? Life in Germany is vastly better than in Eastern Europe and the contrast should be immense. The main problem in nations such as Russia or Ukraine is the lack of stability as well as remembrance of a time when Russia was a superpower. Germany is not unstable, nor did it lose its power or status since the fall of Berlin Wall. If anything, it gained it. So why?

Interestingly enough East Germany was probably one of the most spied-on Eastern countries (by the State).

Duh. East Germany was the most likely candidate for rebellion - former Nazi, just out of a war, formerly a great power, was still becoming used to being subjugated, was the closest to the West, was split from a single nation - possibly eager to reunite. I would be surprised if it was not spied on the most.

This is true, personal experience of mine certainly backs this up.

If you are being sardonic then -

I am not saying Germany was loved by USSR. Nor am I saying that life was great back then. Neither is true. What I am saying is that USSR attempted to keep its holdings by making life there better than it was in Russia. Life in Russia was **** in Russia compared to other republics. The Party did not care what happened inside their most secure holding. Just read the statistics. Ask anyone from former USSR who has been outside of Russia.

My grandfather was a merchant, a person who traveled all around Soviet-friendly nations buying and selling, despite the fact profiteering was illegal. He amassed quite a fortune, and many stories as well. So did my parents, who visited Poland and Czechoslovakia to buy goods that they would later sell in Russia, where you could not find such consumer products. Such as hair-straighteners, or a whole host of minor kitchen appliances.

Everyone who came back from Baltics or Poland was always amazed at the comparative quality of life there. All the pensioners spoke about it. It was common knowledge. Even in Moldavia, for instance, life was very good compared to Russia. It was part of USSR, so many Russians moved there, including my grandfathers on both sides. That is how most of my family is in Moldova now, even though life is crap there.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

A whole lot of Germany can be traced back to dictatorial times. To however dismiss everything originating or supported by previous dictatorships would be a dead-end street. Die Linke may draw heavily on Ostalgia, and have an altogether too large communist influence, but it also enjoys support from a democratic leftist electorate.

It isn't quite the same though. It isn't that they just draw on Ostalgia and the East German state, it is that they are the successor party to the SED. It would be like the Nazi Party renaming itself, and gaining some influence from relatively "normal" people on the same side of the political spectrum years later.

Aemilius Paulus, my post was not so hostile to you as it might have seemed when you first read it. I'd recommend reading it again before taking that tone.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Aemilius Paulus, my post was not so hostile to you as it might have seemed when you first read it. I'd recommend reading it again before taking that tone.

Sorry, but I did not write as hostile, but mildly exasperated. Knowing the mods here (well, actually, in the Frontroom - Banquo is a very reasonable and fair person), I will have to change it before I get an infraction.

Thanks for the warning

In any case, were you being sarcastic? At first I did not think so, but knowing you I doubted you would actually admit something good about USSR. In addition, you hinted at your experience as if it was a jab in my direction, knowing that I had no experience. Perhaps you were angered by my discourse on a subject you experienced firsthand (if you actually did). That is quite annoying, as what I said (the subsidies and favour-seeking) before was fact, not opinion. No Western author denies that life in Soviet Eastern Block 'Allies' was at least noticeably vastly superior to the mudpit of Russia.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

In any case, were you being sarcastic? At first I did not think so, but knowing you I doubted you would actually admit something good about USSR.

I'm not sarcastic, nor am I saying anything good about the USSR. Keeping the Eastern satellites happy was a necessity.

[rvg]

Life in Soviet Russia overall might not have been great compared to the rest of the Eastern Bloc, but in Moscow it was pretty damn good.

[Aemilius Paulus]

No sympathy for communism from me.

I am sure you got it, but just in case, perhaps for other Orgahs, I was not at all serious when I said See?? I knew the Germans loved the Soviet Rule!!! Deep down, all of you liked our communism.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Life in Soviet Russia overall might not have been great compared to the rest of the Eastern Bloc, but in Moscow it was pretty damn good.

That is debatable. The main pro of Moscow was the fact that the stores were relatively well-stocked in normal years and better-stocked during the Deficit Eighties (deficit referring to the lack of goods in stores, and not to an overall economic state of budget). However, Moscow could not compare to Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lutehnia, Czechoslovakia, or GDR - mainly in non-edible products.

The produce, the food items were rather abundant in Moscow, but other consumer products, such as any sort of devices (such as those hair straighteners or kitchen appliances) were painfully deficient. The one incontrovertible benefit of Moscow were the "special stores" for Party members. The high-ranking ones that is - almost everyone was a member of the Communist Party - joining was highly encouraged and numerous difficulties arose for non-members.

Otherwise, Moscow had little other benefits.

[rvg]

That is debatable. The main pro of Moscow was the fact that the stores were relatively well-stocked in normal years and better-stocked during the Deficit Eighties (deficit referring to the lack of goods in stores, and not to an overall economic state of budget). However, Moscow could not compare to Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lutehnia, Czechoslovakia, or GDR - mainly in non-edible products.

The produce, the food items were rather abundant in Moscow, but other consumer products, such as any sort of devices (such as those hair straighteners or kitchen appliances) were painfully deficient. The one incontrovertible benefit of Moscow were the "special stores" for Party members. The high-ranking ones that is - almost everyone was a member of the Communist Party - joining was highly encouraged and numerous difficulties arose for non-members.

Otherwise, Moscow had little other benefits.

I remember Moscow of the 80s reasonably well. Stores were loaded with Soviet-made manufactured goods and occasionally got shipments from other Warsaw pact countries. People obviously tried to avoid just about anything that had a "Made in the USSR" tag, because for the most part it was quite frankly crap. Anything made in the other Soviet Bloc countries was highly prized and always in demand.

As for "almost everyone" belonging to the Communist Party, that's nowhere near the truth. Not in the 80s anyway. In fact, in the 80s the majority of people did *not* belong to the party, as the benefits of membership were only relevant if one was seeking a highly prestigious government job. The regular rank'n'file members would just be stuck paying the party dues and attending countless and absolutely meaningless party meetings. Needless to say, not many people cared for that.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I remember Moscow of the 80s reasonably well. Stores were loaded with Soviet-made manufactured goods and occasionally got shipments from other Warsaw pact countries. People obviously tried to avoid just about anything that had a "Made in the USSR" tag, because for the most part it was quite frankly crap. Anything made in the other Soviet Bloc countries was highly prized and always in demand.

Have you lived there for more than a year? My parents have, and they often speak of those times, as I ask them. Sure, Moscow had all sorts of goods, but the lines were immense and few could get hold of the deficit goods. Remember that Moscow is a gargantuan city of millions of people - it is #7 in population today, although that is based on the "city proper", and not the general metropolitan area.

It does not matter what it had, there was still woefully too little of it. Even in the Soviet films, if you happen to watch them, shortages are a common issue in the lives of people. If the Party did not deny it, and went as far as even flaunting it, then you know it was bad. You would normally expect such problems to be minimised, at least in films, but they were not.

Nor was the "made in USSR tag" comment true either. There were plenty of reversals of that, as well as other factors. I am not even certain if a broad generalisation of your position would be true here.

As for "almost everyone" belonging to the Communist Party, that's nowhere near the truth. Not in the 80s anyway. In fact, in the 80s the majority of people did *not* belong to the party, as the benefits of membership were only relevant if one was seeking a highly prestigious government job. The regular rank'n'file members would just be stuck paying the party dues and attending countless and absolutely meaningless party meetings. Needless to say, not many people cared for that.

Alright, now you are seriously detached from reality, to put it mildly. Everyone had to join the Young Pioneers, then the Komsomol, and then the Party itself. Few avoided it, for ideological or more often, religious reasons. They payed dearly, as their prospects were low - few occupations were open to them. Also, if they became involved in anything shady, punishment would be extra-harsh, on top of what a strong party member.

Can anyone support me here please? C'mon this is common truth. Angela Merkel is mentioned not joining the Party and her biographies state that was a serious action, condemning her to a life of greater drudgery than majority of other people.

[rvg]

Everyone had to join the Young Pioneers, then the Komsomol, and then the Party itself. Few avoided it, for ideological or more often, religious reasons. They payed dearly, as their prospects were low - few occupations were open to them. Also, if they became involved in anything shady, punishment would be extra-harsh, on top of what a strong party member.

Just about every kid became a poineer, yes. Most did join the Komsomol. Then it dropped off *sharply*. Once Gorbachev came to power people have very little tolerance from the ideological mumbo-jumbo, and as a result most didn't ever bother joining the Communist Party. There was a HUGE difference between a 1984 USSR and a 1985 USSR. HUGE.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Once Gorbachev came to power people have very little tolerance from the ideological mumbo-jumbo, and as a result most didn't ever bother joining the Communist Party. There was a HUGE difference between a 1984 USSR and a 1985 USSR. HUGE.

There was a difference, yes. After Gorbachev, yes, yes. But "ALL CAPS" huge? I doubt it, although I will have to research this. You may as well be right about Party membership in Gorbachev's time. Despite this, I still have doubts, as it was always true that you could not advance far without Party Membership.

What do you define as "HUGE"? If by that you mean 20%, then yes. If more, then probably not. Probably, maybe. Like I said, I will have to research this.

EDIT: By 1933, the party had approximately 3.5 million members but as a result of the Great Purge party membership was cut down to 1.9 million by 1939.[citation needed] In 1986, the Communist Party of the Soviet Union had over 19 million members or approximately 10% of the USSR's adult population. - Wikipedia. Not true about pre-1986 membership rates. I have hear 19 million statistic mentioned in my American Government book, but that was definitely not true. I could swallow 40% though.

Why would you NOT join the Party? You do not have to be sincere about it. Principles snobbery is a stupid, vile thing. Do not like the Party? You do not have lick its rump if you are a member. Join it, attend a few meetings, and your life will be greatly improved.

[rvg]

Why would you NOT join the Party? You do not have to be sincere about it. Principles snobbery is a stupid, vile thing. Do not like the Party? You do not have lick its rump if you are a member. Join it, attend a few meetings, and your life will be greatly improved.

With Gorbachev the rules of the game had changed. The Communist Party was only relevant if you were to pursue political power. For the average Joe (or average Ivan, I should say) it made no difference. None. So, once the punitive aspect of not joining was gone, nobody cared to join because most had nothing to gain from joining.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Official CDU poster. Well, issued by her party colleague Lengsfeld. Merkel apparantly was not amused.

It reads 'CDU. We've got more to offer.'

[Sarmatian]

I remember Moscow of the 80s reasonably well. Stores were loaded with Soviet-made manufactured goods and occasionally got shipments from other Warsaw pact countries. People obviously tried to avoid just about anything that had a "Made in the USSR" tag, because for the most part it was quite frankly crap. Anything made in the other Soviet Bloc countries was highly prized and always in demand.

That's very true. A chemical company my father was a manager of in the 70's and 80's made a fortune in Russia. They worked in 3 shifts and the still couldn't satisfy the demand. He also said he was very surprised at the price when he saw the products in the stores in Moscow. Not only they were 5-6 times more expensive than the Russian equivalents, they were also 3-4 time more expensive than what he sold them for, but they sold like crazy.

[Husar]

No, the NPD kept roughly their vote share from last election. They have seats in various Landtags. Die Linke gained seats in the Bundestag. Sadly.

I still think 8 EUR minimum wage couldn't hurt, although they want 10 and have some whacky ideas in other areas but so do some of the other parties, like the CDU/CSU...

Alternatively I like the idea of the FDP which wants to introduce "Bürgergeld", money you get in addition to your job to guarantee a certain minimum income. I have however not seen a number for this minimum income or a plan to make this so that taking a job is actually preferable over just taking all the money from the government, if done correctly this could be a great idea but I have not seen this brought up anywhere except in that quiz about the elections where you can see what the individual parties want in certain areas.
Overall though I would never work for 3 EUR an hour unless my work consisted of watching movies and writing 2 sentence summaries...I also didn't got for a 5 EUR per hour job even though I really needed one, I'm just not into slave labour I guess.