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Thread: German elections return a centre-right government

  1. #61
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: German elections return a centre-right government

    To be clear: "Ostalgia" is a play on words? Nostalgia for the Ost (east) - as in a longing for the good old days of the DDR ?

    @Husar: so your choices of voting were to cast a ballot in your home district, or apply for, then mail in a postal ballot? Are the postal ballots in wide use yet? Do they get counted before or after the votes cast at polling stations? What kind of turnout was there for this election (% of eligible voters actually voting). Sorry for all the ??'s, but you know me, always interested in the mechanics of governance.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  2. #62
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: German elections return a centre-right government

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    To be clear: "Ostalgia" is a play on words? Nostalgia for the Ost (east) - as in a longing for the good old days of the DDR ?
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    @Husar: so your choices of voting were to cast a ballot in your home district, or apply for, then mail in a postal ballot? Are the postal ballots in wide use yet? Do they get counted before or after the votes cast at polling stations?
    I don't know when they are being counted, I think they have to have arrived by election day though.
    But you're almost right about the choices, I could have voted in another locale in the same district by getting some papers the sheet I got says,but my parents live in a different district so that wouldn't have worked for me either.

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    What kind of turnout was there for this election (% of eligible voters actually voting). Sorry for all the ??'s, but you know me, always interested in the mechanics of governance.
    According to "Der Spiegel" the turnout was 70.8% compared to 77.8% in 2005.
    Oh and feel free to ask.


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  3. #63
    Guest Aemilius Paulus's Avatar
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    Arrow Re: German elections return a centre-right government

    Hmm, I suppose rvg was correct in the Gorbachev era statistics. I admit my surrender .

  4. #64
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: German elections return a centre-right government

    Quote Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus View Post
    Hmm, I suppose rvg was correct in the Gorbachev era statistics. I admit my surrender .
    It was an interesting time, to say the least. The Soviet civilization was truly unique and I think that on a certain level I even miss it. Back in those days the world was a simpler, I daresay, less evil place than it is today.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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  5. #65
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: German elections return a centre-right government

    What Is Wrong with Social Democracy?:
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...652231,00.html
    Germany's Social Democrats are in crisis. And they are not alone. Across Europe, social democratic parties are struggling to connect with a new generation of voters. What's the problem?
    German Chancellor Angela Merkel's re-election this weekend confirms what many already knew: Europe's social democratic parties have failed to distill any political benefit from the association between the right's reverence for unfettered markets and the economic crises that grip the continent.
    Historically, Europeans turn to conservatives in times of crisis. But today, the situation is more complex. In Germany, Merkel's Christian Democrats also fared worse than in previous elections. Instead, voters opted for the far-left Left Party, the liberal Free Democrats and the Greens. These parties tapped into modernizing demographic trends: the rise of a progressive younger generation, the continuing rise in educational levels, the growth of the professional class, the increasing social weight of single and alternative households and growing religious diversity and secularism. Despite the defeat of the social democrats, then, one can discern the emergence of new constituencies that favor progressives. These trends are repeated across much of Europe.
    But why do these groups not vote for the social democrats?
    The Shortcomings of Social Democracy
    One can discern four reasons, common to many social democratic parties in Europe, each rooted in shortcomings of the Third Way.
    First, European social democrats have done a poor job of defining what they stand for or how it differs from conservatives. The Third Way reconciled progressive thought with the market economy, individualism and globalization. This helped Bill Clinton in the US, Tony Blair in Britain and Gerhard Schröder in Germany establish political hegemonies in an era of conservative dominance. All three projects were egalitarian, but in rejecting many signature policies of social democratic thinking, they allowed conservatives to blur the differences between themselves and social democrats. Moreover, the social democrats' current difficulties in defining an alternative economic paradigm stem from gaps in Third Way thought, most notably with regards to industrial renewal.
    Second, social democrats have failed to connect with the values of voters and thus struggle to respond to the populist anger that is typically rooted in these values. The Third Way's rejection of ideology was once a strength; it has now become a weakness. Social democratic politicians often suffer from "seminaritis" -- treating the political process as a matter of compiling data, evidence and the best ideas. But voters need more than a list of policy positions. Focusing on responsibility and technocratic reform, social democrats appear uninterested in the values and emotions of the working class and emerging progressive constituencies. As a result they are outflanked by parties to their left and right, and by the Liberals and Greens.
    No Convincing Response
    Third, social democrats now find themselves confronted by a raft of new policy challenges that the Third Way did not foresee. The Third Way emerged at a time of profound optimism. The end of the Cold War, and the dot-com boom led many to believe ideology (and conflict) was over, and that the post-modern West could live off services while consuming goods produced by the developing world. But, the entrance of a billion new workers into the global economy has not been without its consequences. While the benefits of globalization have been broadly distributed, the costs have been born by a specific few -- usually working class communities that were once the base of social democratic parties.
    These trends have been exacerbated by the current crisis, and social democratic parties have failed to offer any convincing response. Add growing concerns about immigration, crime and Islamic terrorism, and European electorates have become vulnerable to a politics of fear and populism. Social democrats are currently trapped between appearing tone deaf -- singing the virtues of globalization or multiculturalism without admitting their difficulties -- or alienating part of the electorate they need to win office. On the economy and immigration, their heartland vote is tempted by the emotional messages of right and left wing competitors.
    Had Its Day
    Finally, social democrats have failed to modernize the way they do politics. The appeal of many new ethical or progressive movements is that they are open and less hierarchical. The days of a command and control structure that manages the 24-hour new cycle, and policy and message development are gone. The advent of new social media and the "blogosphere" make such an approach impossible. Moreover, voters are now less deferential and want to play a more active role in the political process.
    While the Third Way was an essential stage in the renewal of social democratic thinking, most notably because it reconciled an electorate acclimatized to conservatism to the possibility of progressive politics, it has clearly had its day. If social democratic parties are to recover, then they must move to a new phase of progressive governance.
    For social democrats to profit from the emergence of new social groups and constituencies that are potentially favorable to them, they will need a new agenda, new passion, and a new politics -- one open to collaboration with other parties, and new constituencies.
    For those versed in the politics of the Third Way, this transition will be hard, but the work must start now.
    This article is based on a longer paper, "The European Paradox," written by Matt Browne, Ruy Teixiera, and John Halpin which will be presented at a meeting of US and European progressives in Madrid, Spain. It was kindly provided to SPIEGEL ONLINE by the Heinrich Boell Stiftung.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  6. #66
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: German elections return a centre-right government

    What's wrong with the social democrats?

    They've stopped being social democrats.

    They've given in to the privatization and anti-immigration schemes of the conservatives instead of staying true to their old ideology. Those who want to vote for parties like that will find better options further right, and those who don't want those policies will be scared away. Our social democrats just won the election here. Why? Because they haven't given in to the privatization hype they were on a few years ago, they've stayed social democrats.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  7. #67
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re: German elections return a centre-right government

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    And I could have listed many personal examples that proved that, but I didn't want to make such an effort to refute a claim that he clearly hasn't researched or thought about, but just repeated after reading it in Socialist Fancy or whatever.
    Who cares about personal examples? I've been to the US for 14 days and I could have listed many personal examples that proved that social mobility is quite low, as in, lower than in most western Europe, despite all the 'American dream' mumbo jumbo.

    Quote Originally Posted by SFTS
    All Europeans live off the welfare system and Americas defense systems
    This is something I can somewhat agree with. Although most europeans don't live off the welfare system (in which case Europe would be a third word area by now), it's quite true that said welfare system could only become possible because the US funded the defense of western Europe.
    Europeans could never have afforded to defend themselves against a possible soviet invasion while setting up workable welfare states.
    This is often forgotten by Europeans and Canadians.

    To say the USA (a country of 300 million mind you) has much less mobility than the rest of the west is disingenous at best.
    Now I don't see how the population is relevant. I'm not sure it has much less mobility than the rest of Europe, but I think the 'american dream' is kind of a fairy tale now.

    Quote Originally Posted by EMFM
    Ostalgia. Lots of people in the East are incapable of looking back and seeing just how much worse off they were. That and the SPD is weak in many places in the East, making Die Linke the go-to leftist party.
    I don't see how having a state-guaranteed job, a monthly income and living in a decent appartement is 'much worse' than being unemployed. Not to mention that East Germany had a disproportionnate weight on the international scene (being the showoff of USSR), while reunited Germany used to be pretty much nonexistant (things are changing lately, mostly because Germany decided to loosen its ties with France). Then again, there's the fact that social and economical inequalities were not nearly as bad as they are now (even though Germany is doing fine on that departement). You don't really care if you're poor, as long as you still can live decently, and as long as your neighbour isn't 10 times wealthier than you.

  8. #68
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: German elections return a centre-right government

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    What's wrong with the social democrats?

    They've stopped being social democrats.

    They've given in to the privatization and anti-immigration schemes of the conservatives instead of staying true to their old ideology. Those who want to vote for parties like that will find better options further right, and those who don't want those policies will be scared away. Our social democrats just won the election here. Why? Because they haven't given in to the privatization hype they were on a few years ago, they've stayed social democrats.
    How "left" are they? I typically hate parties on either end of the spectrum.



  9. #69
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: German elections return a centre-right government

    Quote Originally Posted by Meneldil View Post
    I don't see how having a state-guaranteed job, a monthly income and living in a decent appartement is 'much worse' than being unemployed. Not to mention that East Germany had a disproportionnate weight on the international scene (being the showoff of USSR), while reunited Germany used to be pretty much nonexistant (things are changing lately, mostly because Germany decided to loosen its ties with France). Then again, there's the fact that social and economical inequalities were not nearly as bad as they are now (even though Germany is doing fine on that departement). You don't really care if you're poor, as long as you still can live decently, and as long as your neighbour isn't 10 times wealthier than you.


    I like how you can sit there in your comfortable French apartment and theorize about how glorious (or at least not that bad) socialism in East Germany ones, but a rational look at East Germany will reveal a very different conclusion. It wasn't a pleasant place to live in, however much people - even those who lived there - may look back at it and think it was. Anyone who keeps two eyes open can see why and how we are better off now by a mile.

  10. #70
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re: German elections return a centre-right government

    I'm not saying Ostalgia isn't stupid. Honestly, I've only met a few east-Germans, and most of them are too young to remember anything about this era, yet they still felt East-Germany has been ripped off since the reunification.

    What I'm saying is that I can understand this feeling. It seems that most of East-Germany will have a hard time catching up West-Germany. The area is less populated by now than in 1989, and the unemployement rate is much higher than in the rest of the country. Most young people are moving to the west and the convergence with Western germany still seems hardly achievable.

    On the other hand, communist East-Germany used to be the jewel of the eastern bloc. Pretty much everyone had a job, and even though life wasn't awesome, it was still decent. Everybody was looking at East-Germany, because it was the main battleground between the West and the East. Now, nobody cares about it anymore, young people are leaving, factories are still closing and unemployement is still going strong.

    The same thing is happening in Russia, by the way. Some people think life was better off 30 years ago. Some even think life was better off under Stalin's ironfist. When they see things are not going very well, people imagine life was much better a while ago. That's how the human mind works: myth of the golden age and all that.

  11. #71
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: German elections return a centre-right government

    Quote Originally Posted by Ice View Post
    How "left" are they? I typically hate parties on either end of the spectrum.
    By american standards? Communist baby-killers.

    By our standards? Centre-left.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  12. #72
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: German elections return a centre-right government

    Quote Originally Posted by Meneldil View Post
    I'm not saying Ostalgia isn't stupid. Honestly, I've only met a few east-Germans, and most of them are too young to remember anything about this era, yet they still felt East-Germany has been ripped off since the reunification.
    I disagree - the former West has sunk much more money into the former East than it probably should have. That doesn't mean the East isn't still behind, because outside of places like Dresden, it is. The problem isn't with how much money the West has put in, but how it has been spent in my opinion.

    The same thing is happening in Russia, by the way. Some people think life was better off 30 years ago. Some even think life was better off under Stalin's ironfist. When they see things are not going very well, people imagine life was much better a while ago. That's how the human mind works: myth of the golden age and all that.
    I see what you mean now, and I agree with that. It's true that East Germany was better off than most other communist states, but I'd much rather be in the West.

  13. #73
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: German elections return a centre-right government

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    I disagree - the former West has sunk much more money into the former East than it probably should have. That doesn't mean the East isn't still behind, because outside of places like Dresden, it is. The problem isn't with how much money the West has put in, but how it has been spent in my opinion.
    It's about perception. East Germany went from being THE focus to A focus. The fact is that East Germany was bound to loose from reunification in the short term. The western part had the infrastructure, jobs, culture, etc that will take time to restore in the East.

    This phenomenon is nothing more than sour grapes.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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  14. #74
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: German elections return a centre-right government

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    It's about perception. East Germany went from being THE focus to A focus. The fact is that East Germany was bound to loose from reunification in the short term. The western part had the infrastructure, jobs, culture, etc that will take time to restore in the East.
    Look at how the West sees those who vote for Die Linke though. Westerners look at the new freedoms and possibilities that were given to the East and see them as ungrateful, because in the long run, they will be better off. I'm saying this in my role as an "Easterner", though I'm not really either East or West.

    This phenomenon is nothing more than sour grapes.
    Exactly.

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