Europe

[Furunculus]

It would be most effective if we all want to go forward to work together to achieve that goal.

the greatest net effect might well be achieved, but if it isn't your aims that are being implemented, what value that forward march?

No, he just wants status quo for the sake of it and dislikes change for the better.

is it for the better.......... for Britain?

Going forward is in everybody's interest, but how we proceed with that isn't. You're assuming that everyone has the same definition of going forward, or that it will work for every country. We've seen this in the prison thread - some things just don't work everywhere. Some don't work anywhere. A superstate is a bad move for Europe. It will be now, it will be after a hundred years of unification.

^ wot he said. ^

Its some mythical entity that some mantain exsist that binds some together and seperates them from others...

what is mythical about it? i have listed plenty of individual examples, none of which have been refuted. Louis has admitted to it, although he differs on its importance. and the political governance of france and germany certainly agree given their enthusiasm to keep turkey out of the EU because it does not fit into the desired cultural make-up of the EU.

Yet you can remove many of the causes and divides and many people can be open minded.
Remove nation aspect and you don't have nations fighting for superiority with one another, as exampled in the first and second world wars.
Make people equal, promote an open culture.

Contrary to what many believe, evils of losing a culture are mainly superficial when replaced by an open culture. Just because people over there eat curry opposed to sushi, doesn't mean have same legal/political framework is going to some how replace all the choices and lifestyles with porridge.

given that people have been arguing that the nation state is not a natural state, and in fact a relatively new entity, does that not invalidate any argument that ending nationalism will end warfare and bloodshed?

it is not a matter of good or evil, cultures survive or die, and they die because they no longer have the vibrancy to compete against the attraction of neighbouring cultures.

What would you lose? You would still have French with berets with stripy jumpers, you will still have Japanese eating sushi, you will still have Curry night on Thursdays. The whoile idea that internationalist agenda creates a bland and exact sameness everywhere is superficial. An open culture is open to all the facets of learning, experimentation and being open to others of different cultures. You can easily go to Japan and learn about the Shogunate's and that will never change, just like trying and adopting features like trying out curry. The whole openess doesn't actually remove anyway, it only adds.

i would lose a Britain that is tied to a grouping i do care about; the anglosphere.
> if we integrated politically with europe the technology sharing with the US would disappear, thus our nuclear deterrent would disappear, which would reduce the depth of our mutual political ties.
> if we integrated politically with europe the intelligence sharing with the US would disappear (and our relative intelligence advantage would disappear), which would reduce the depth of our mutual political ties.
> both of the above would also push us further away from Canada and Australia, with whom we also have mutli-lateral agreements in place with.
> the inward looking nature of the EU would also push us further away from the Commonwealth.

[Furunculus]

hannan is claiming (without sources) that the french and german government are 'encouraging' czech politicians to impeach their president, if true; hardly the act of friendly nations:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...-vaclav-klaus/

[Louis VI the Fat]

hannan is claiming (without sources) that the french and german government are 'encouraging' czech politicians to impeach their president, if true; hardly the act of friendly nations:

And Hannan, a MEP, is encouring the president to obstruct the will of the Czech parliament. Hardly the act of a friendly MEP with respect for the sovereignty of the Czech republic.

[Furunculus]

there i was thinking that hannan was encouraging Klaus not to cave into EU pressure by closing down a judicial review, sponsored by the czech parliamentarians, before it had reached its due conclusion. ;)

[LittleGrizzly]

what is mythical about it?

That it is shared throughout a country but different to other cultures and its what makes the country work (insert demos and kratos randomly around the post for effect)

Me and alot of younger people think similarly to Louis, have similar values... alot of older people think like you, have similar values... A French, British and German farmer have far more in common than thier factory workers from thier country...

[Furunculus]

so your saying this association of 'community' within the national culture is shared by some but not others.....................?

agreed, you're a case in point, as am i. i guess what matters is whether either side can claim a majority.

the answer to this dilemma might be a referendum, a referendum on the post-sovereign issue of the day; Britains place within the EU perhaps...............? i'd be happy to apply that experiment to the dilemma, would you?

[LittleGrizzly]

so your saying this association of 'community' within the national culture is shared by some but not others.....................?

agreed, you're a case in point, as am i.

Im glad you agree, Britian runs along smoothly dispite many different values and cultures throughout the land...

the answer to this dilemma might be a referendum, a referendum on the post-sovereign issue of the day; Britains place within the EU perhaps...............? i'd be happy to apply that experiment to the dilemma, would you?

Lol, nicely turned.

I have nothing paticular against referendums, its good to see the public get more of a say.... there is an element of the masses who really don't know what thier talking about (most people) being swayed this way or that. and theres an element of of we elect people to make the decisions for us... AFAIK its been no secret that Labour were going to agree to it without a referendum and they have won an election since... so its not as if people had no warning...

All that being said I would have been happier having a referendum, but as I understand from my reading of the political commentator Tribesman the point is moot as we cannot call one now anyway...

[Furunculus]

the answer to this dilemma might be a referendum, a referendum on the post-sovereign issue of the day; Britains place within the EU perhaps...............? i'd be happy to apply that experiment to the dilemma, would you?

Lol, nicely turned.

I have nothing paticular against referendums, its good to see the public get more of a say.... there is an element of the masses who really don't know what thier talking about (most people) being swayed this way or that. and theres an element of of we elect people to make the decisions for us... AFAIK its been no secret that Labour were going to agree to it without a referendum and they have won an election since... so its not as if people had no warning...

All that being said I would have been happier having a referendum, but as I understand from my reading of the political commentator Tribesman the point is moot as we cannot call one now anyway...

thanks, it is kind of obvious tho.

i do object to referendums, in all instances except where our governors intend to give away the Kratos, that we the Demos entrusted to them so that they may act in our name. and the fact that labour betrayed this trust by campaigning on a referndum and failing to use it is no doubt part of the peadophile level of pupularity they now enjoy.

i applaud the fact you have the courage of your convictions, however i think your confidence is misplaced, and that changes nothing from the fact that:
a) we can have a referendum on anything we like
b) we should have a referendum to ask whether the government acted with our permission when it handed over large tranches of governing authority to a third party, especially given that the agreement was to a self amending treaty which will prevent such inflection points, where the public demand to be asked, in future.

[Banquo's Ghost]

the answer to this dilemma might be a referendum, a referendum on the post-sovereign issue of the day; Britains place within the EU perhaps...............? i'd be happy to apply that experiment to the dilemma, would you?

Yes, indeed.

It's long past time that the British people got a proper say in their future - in or out of the EU. Sadly, I don't think there are any political parties that could explain the consequences either way, but I think all of Europe is tired of Britain being so negative, yet still wanting a place at the top table.

If EFTA status is what is really wanted, then so be it. It makes sense as long as the voters understand what this means for the pound and their economic influence. Similarly, if the voters want Britain to be part of the EU project, let it be an enthusiastic part, bringing some of the good sense of that country to bear on the development of a federal state based on subsidiarity and democracy.

[Furunculus]

couldn't agree more, europe should rightly be annoyed with all the griping and foot dragging from britain, but that fault can firmly be laid at the foot of successive governments that have failed to persuade their electorate by open and honest debate.

while i think federalism is unnecessary, i am happy to let europe get cracking with my blessing, if that's what they want.
what i am not happy with is the fact that we are being dragged along with them by default, because our political class is too spineless to put the case before its electorate.

[Banquo's Ghost]

couldn't agree more, europe should rightly be annoyed with all the griping and foot dragging from britain, but that fault can firmly be laid at the foot of successive governments that have failed to persuade their electorate by open and honest debate.

while i think federalism is unnecessary, i am happy to let europe get cracking with my blessing, if that's what they want.
what i am not happy with is the fact that we are being dragged along with them by default, because our political class is too spineless to put the case before its electorate.

And whilst I am greatly in favour of federalism, I agree with you absolutely.

Didn't the Liberal Democrats want to hold a referendum on this basis, even though they are pro-Europe?

[Furunculus]

And whilst I am greatly in favour of federalism, I agree with you absolutely.

Didn't the Liberal Democrats want to hold a referendum on this basis, even though they are pro-Europe?

we all have our faults. ;)

i believe they did because to my knowledge all three major parties campaigned on a referendum platform, however it is kind of irrelevant because they are never in with a hope of being in government. it is the same as their statements about giving up trident, it simply doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

[Banquo's Ghost]

i believe they did because to my knowledge all three major parties campaigned on a referendum platform, however it is kind of irrelevant because they are never in with a hope of being in government. it is the same as their statements about giving up trident, it simply doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

I'd agree with you on Trident, but there is still a distinct possibility that they will be the power brokers in a hung parliament this time round.

It might suit one of the main parties to let a referendum go ahead with the LDs as the "scapegoat" should one of their coalition demands prove to be such a vote (along with PR, which is a desperate necessity for New Labour if they are not to disappear forever once Scotland leaves a Tory-run UK).

[Furunculus]

On that note this xenophobic and nationalistic racist with militaristic and autarkic tendancies, is going to spend the next five days enjoying Oktoberfest with his wingman in Berlin, paid for by some film company, and via an epic roadtrip across glorious europe.

Whilst he is doing this he will no doubt be building a hatred towards all foriegners, and planning to revive the empire so that fine upstanding whitey englishmen can properly supervise the peasant-like johnny-foreigner once again.

When I get back I expect to find either scintillating debate on how ECRG has collapsed, or deathly silence indicating that its motoring on quite successfully in obscurity.

Have fun.

[gaelic cowboy]

We've given in to the Irish too - no abortion for raped teenage girls, American corporations retain their favourable tax rates, and Ireland does not have to pick up its share of the tab for defense.

An Irish teenage girl who is raped is by definition allowed to travel to a country where abortion is allowed if she so wishes it's the law here we had a big court case over it.

In an economic union where Interest rates are set for the majority then the only way to run your economy is through your tax system.

Our troops are over in Chad cleaning up the mess French imperialism left behind it.

This Lisbon treaty is a bore its a load of rubbish I predict at the next enlargement an new treaty will be required again.

I voted for this tissue paper treaty with its verbal opt outs which have basis in reality for one reason the C.A.P. I suspect I am the only person on the org who at the minute his daily life is impacted by it.

[Tribesman]

I voted for this tissue paper treaty with its verbal opt outs which have basis in reality for one reason the C.A.P. I suspect I am the only person on the org who at the minute his daily life is impacted by it.

No offence, but you sound like one of those chaps that were on the news at the ploughing championships. "if we don't vote yes the cheques for farming will be stopped".
So what is your big fiddle ? sheep probably, I doubt its dairy , maybe you got into the really big fiddle with horses that has now come completely unstuck.

[gaelic cowboy]

No offence, but you sound like one of those chaps that were on the news at the ploughing championships. "if we don't vote yes the cheques for farming will be stopped".
So what is your big fiddle ? sheep probably, I doubt its dairy , maybe you got into the really big fiddle with horses that has now come completely unstuck.

None taken I have never been to the ploughing Championships and I aint in IFA those guys on the telly were idiots. I believe if you dont like the EU send the cheque back since we get subventions i aint voting for anything however remote may change that.

Beef is my fiddle.

On a positive note I just watched the Bull resign earlier on and it was lovely even if he is moving to a lovely feather bed of compensation for stepping down

[Tribesman]

Beef is my fiddle.

Ah I was expecting you to be after the headage for non existant flocks scattered all over Mayo.
So any nice grants for slatted sheds lately or has the tightening of rules put a stop to that?

[Strike For The South]

There are farm subsidies over there to?

I like to rag on the cotton farmers over here, good to know this thing is wroldwide!

[Tribesman]

There are farm subsidies over there to?

Of course, but the biggest fiddle recently (apart from subsidised fictional sheep) has been horses, everyone wanted to get on that dodge.
The result now is that lots of people are stuck with loads of horses they cannot sell (and that they cannot feed after another dismal summer wrecked the winter fodder again) .
Twice recently I have been offered very fine horses as part payment for work, (I didn't take them, but one of my cousins has ended up taking 7 already this year)

[gaelic cowboy]

Heard about that horse thing what a load of cobblers will people never learn quick there offering grants for sheds build some then later hey whats this shed for I dunnno but we got one

Good beef animals were using a grass based system all year round not putting animals in is healthier and they only eat about the same in hay and silage anyway.

Means less input in nuts however thay are not overly heavy animals so it works out the same just means stock is a small bit less for same money at the factory.

I think you will find the sheep thing is gone a good while Tribesman fictional sheep were being claimed for but the real problem was overstocking as evidenced by the massive collapse back in middle nineties of lamb prices.

A field of ducks at that time was worth more than ten fields of sheep our stock level was before that and got out completely when prices hit the wall. Likely will restock one day soon there good for keeping down noxious weed levels.

I am convinced the rise of part time farming allied with rural housing development and reduction of sheep numbers in the country gave rise to the explosion of ragwort. I am sick of having to deal with weeds that just blow in on the wind even more than they used too.

[Tribesman]

Yeah, the only problem with keeping them out all year is ground conditions and time. Its a lot easier to fill the feeders in the shed than driving cross muddy fields in the dark.
But hey don't knock the idiots wanting lots of sheds they won't use, I really cleaned up on that
As for ragwort...lazy useless ********* nowadays , its absolutely everywhere.

[Strike For The South]

Of course, but the biggest fiddle recently (apart from subsidised fictional sheep) has been horses, everyone wanted to get on that dodge.
The result now is that lots of people are stuck with loads of horses they cannot sell (and that they cannot feed after another dismal summer wrecked the winter fodder again) .
Twice recently I have been offered very fine horses as part payment for work, (I didn't take them, but one of my cousins has ended up taking 7 already this year)

What sort of back asswards socitey do you live in that horses are used as payment?

That's retarded.

[Tribesman]

What sort of back asswards socitey do you live in that horses are used as payment?

That's retarded.

Actually its good, the market is currently flooded, people who got into the market the past few years have debts they cannot maintain.
If someone offers an asset that used to be worth a fortune and will soon again be worth fortune to pay off a debt of a few grand then you are laughing, especially if the horse has a good line, training or record.
Taking someones horse as payment is no different from taking their car or land.
I prefer land or machinery myself because even though I like riding I am not really into racing that much.

[gaelic cowboy]

Yeah, the only problem with keeping them out all year is ground conditions and time. Its a lot easier to fill the feeders in the shed than driving cross muddy fields in the dark.
But hey don't knock the idiots wanting lots of sheds they won't use, I really cleaned up on that
As for ragwort...lazy useless ********* nowadays , its absolutely everywhere.

All true my galway friend were in a bit of a sweet spot locally for the farm but yes sometimes you do wonder if a slatted shed would be nicer

God Miriam is nice at twenty past one in the morning with a few pints on yethe real lisbon debate

[Furunculus]

[live from berlin] "back on topic people"

[Beskar]

I have to admit, we should really close this topic and open a new one just about the European Union, since it has been off-topic from "European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life " for 35 pages.

[Furunculus]

disagreed.

this is about the EU precisely because we are trying to define terms to describe how the ECR will make a difference in european politics (or not).

we need terms of reference to describe what the status quo has been up till now, then we shall be able to judge the impact (or not) of the ECR.

[Subotan]

Maybe we could just rename this to the "EU Thread".

[Furunculus]

the yanks are now getting their knickers in a twist over the Conservatives place in the ECR:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...in-Europe.html

Conservative Party facing US pressure over links with far-right parties in Europe
The Conservative Party is facing pressure from the Obama administration over its European policy and links with far-right parties from Latvia and Poland.

Published: 7:00AM BST 21 Oct 2009

William Hague, the Shadow Home Secretary, is to meet the US secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, in Washington on Wednesday amid outrage from the American Jewish community about the alleged antisemitic and neo-Nazi views of the Tory's European allies.

There is also concern in the US that David Cameron's Euroscepticism could damage the influence a Conservative government would have over events in the EU.

According to The Guardian newspaper, Mrs Clinton is facing calls from influential Jewish groups to challenge the Conservative Party's decision to enter a European parliament coalition with a Latvian party, some of whose members attend memorials for Latvian units of Hitler's Waffen-SS, and a Polish politician who has questioned the need to apologise for an anti-Jewish pogrom during the second world war.

Mr Cameron has ordered the Tories to leave the mainstream European People's party and form a new Eurosceptic caucus, the European Conservatives and Reformists, with mainly east European rightwingers, including Michal Kaminski, of Poland's Law and Justice party, and Roberts Zile's Latvian party, For Fatherland and Freedom.

"I think Churchill would turn in his grave. It is an insult to the tradition of this great party," George Schwab, president of the New York-based National Committee on American Foreign Policy and a Holocaust survivor from Latvia, told The Guardian.

A Conservative Party spokesman said Mr Hague would discuss Afghanistan, the Middle East, Iran and the Balkans, during the meeting with Mrs Clinton.

The Obama administration wants the British Government, its closest ally in Europe, at the heart of policy-making on the continent alongside Germany and France.

An American official, asked about the consequences for the US and about the far-right links, said: "I do not see any upsides in the new grouping. I can only see downsides. In life it is normally best to do things when they have an upside."

gee, sounds like confirmation of my earlier statement that the US wants a strong federated partner, and wants the UK firmly on the inside to ensure that strong partner is both:
1) strong
2) anglophile
as a friend of america; "tough nuts!"