Twitter discussion

[Phalanx300]

On the last motion when the hoplite goes back to overhand,

Wouldn't it be quite hard to do that because the spear would get caught in the enemy formation? like knock into some enemy shield and stuff.

Well yeah and then the enemy coming forward at the same time and with your allies in your back.

The strawman being that no-one claimed hoplites left the formation. Rather, the formation was looser than you imply and some individual soldiers would have had the space to execute this manoeuvre during the charge.

Off course, if the team goes with a dense hoplite phalanx (something that is debatable: the above-mentioned Van Wees argues that hoplite formation was looser than that in EB), then yes, the inclusion of this animation is questionable.

Then I gues it all comes down to how dense the Phalanx would be.

And even then such animations for reasons above would be near-impossible to do. Especially with both lines charging at full speed.

And I'll see if I can find something on that Van Wees guy.

[antisocialmunky]

I am however a little curious how feasible it is physically though and it would be unpleasant for the guy behind you. Not really an issue for loose formation though.

[mountaingoat]

maybe some people can field test this

[Parallel Pain]

I think the formation is loose enough during the charge (when the formation is bound to break up a bit) to carry out the move. But logically assuming that the two sides make contact during the "thrust" animation, then the enemy and his shield wall obviously isn't too far in front.
Since, as already pointed out, the recovery must be parallel and can not angle or you'll hit the leg of the guy on the right, the spear is extending it's maximum combat length (4 to 6 feet?) out from the hand. I would think then a feet or two would get caught in the enemy formation.

Though maybe the hand can be pulled back far enough to allow the withdraw. Need an actual spear to test that.

Considering that people were shorter back then, a hoplite using a longer spear trying to carry out that move would also have to be careful that his spear doesn't get stuck in the ground when withdrawing, loosing time when the formation would be closing up.

[Ludens]

And I'll see if I can find something on that Van Wees guy.

Sorry for not giving a reference: I assumed you would be familiar with him. He's in the EB bibliography. I don't agree with everything he writes, but his criticism of the preconceived ideas about hoplite warfare is persuasive.

[Epimetheus]

On a slight tangent, I'm somewhat curious as to how exactly the hoplites held their spear. When holding a spear overhand, which way would they grip it, with their thumbs pointing forward, or back? It seems like one could do it either way, but it makes a big difference in the range of motion they would have.

[A Very Super Market]

A grip with the thumb facing forwards sounds like an underhand grip. It's very awkward to hold it overhand with the thumb facing forwards. Just try it, form the grip at your desk, and it already seems quite unnatural.

[Cybvep]

Is it just me or the next faction preview will be about one of the steppe nomadic factions?

"Nobleman horse archer for steppe faction was skinned, along with the horned-saddle horse. You'll faint! Another Gustave's great skin. - JMRC

Model of nobleman horse archer for steppe faction is finished. Preparing for skinning work. - JMRC

Another steppe horse archer is finished, along with the steppe pony skins. S kins by Gustave. - JMRC

Just integrated the 3rd steppe horse archer unit, from one of the most powerful sarmatian confederacies. Great skins by Gustave. - JMRC

2 more steppe archers (horse and foot variants) were finished, with model by Tux and skins by Gustave. - JMRC

A steppe horse archer with the bowman anims and overhand spear anims on horseback is assembled. - JMRC"