Another Next Total War Poll

[Fisherking]

Well, I guess we need to face it.

Once upon a time hard-core gamers were a force in the market. They bought the high-end machines and the games that ran on them.

There were a lot of studios but they all gradually dwindled. They were bought out, went under, or taken over.

Today it is the mass market and casual gamers that seem to rule the roost.

The time, effort, and heart are not going into these games. It is no longer the feel of the game but the dazzle of the graphics that matter.

Realism is just something for 3D shooters and Historical Accuracy only applies to the lines of Airplanes.

Most only have enough grasp of history and geography to know that Rome was a long time ago and Europe isn’t a province of Canada.

So, just expect Rome II and when they are up to it WWII...

[Khorak]

Well, I guess we need to face it.

Once upon a time hard-core gamers were a force in the market. They bought the high-end machines and the games that ran on them.

There were a lot of studios but they all gradually dwindled. They were bought out, went under, or taken over.

Today it is the mass market and casual gamers that seem to rule the roost.

The time, effort, and heart are not going into these games. It is no longer the feel of the game but the dazzle of the graphics that matter.

Realism is just something for 3D shooters and Historical Accuracy only applies to the lines of Airplanes.

Most only have enough grasp of history and geography to know that Rome was a long time ago and Europe isn’t a province of Canada.

So, just expect Rome II and when they are up to it WWII...

*checks watch*
Wow, I didn't know it was time for condemnations of the supposed 'casual gamer' already. Ah, the good old days, where there were thousands of studios all working selflessly with no thought of making massive piles of money out of gamers who were pure hearted and true.

Oh no wait, that's so wrong I can actually hear the universe screaming out a big no in response. Mass market has always ruled the roost, and just because the market itself is now so large you can pretend you're a unique and special 'hardcore' snowflake doesn't suddenly make casual gamers a new phenomenon. It's so-called 'casual gamers' who've been dragging your backside along with them since the NES in the mid eighties, not the other way around.

[Fisherking]

*checks watch*
Wow, I didn't know it was time for ignorant, dire condemnations of the supposed 'casual gamer' already. Ah, the good old days, where there were thousands of studios all working selflessly with no thought of making massive piles of money out of gamers who were pure hearted and true.

Oh no wait, that's so wrong I can actually hear the universe screaming out a big no in response. What a load of utter elitist tosh. Mass market has always ruled the roost, and just because the market itself is now so large you can pretend you're a unique and special 'hardcore' snowflake doesn't suddenly make casual gamers a new phenomenon. It's so-called 'casual gamers' who've been dragging your backside along with them since the NES in the mid eighties, not the other way around.

Most studios started as gamers building things they wanted to play and yes making money from it but it lacked something it has now Khorak old boy.

A corporate mind set. Those old studios made some money and sold out or went on to something different. But what their motive was in building those was much different.

It wasn’t about bean counters and release dates. No rush for Christmas or some media hype.


But....

In your ignorance and hast to criticize you missed the point. It was a let down for those wanting what was before.

The people voting don’t want Shogun II because they never even saw the box art.

A game focused on history would feel too much like school, or someone trying to penetrate a thick head.

So the games are graphic and light with a minimum of thought needed at each end...which is where you came in.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Fisherking, you are probably romanticizing the past a bit too much. Not only that, but even in it's borked state ETW is far from a casual game. A truly casual gamer's eyes are going to glaze over at all the options available to them (and they'll never dig deep enough to see where ETW doesn't work). Furthermore, there are still hardcore games out there; check out Paradox's line of games which include some really arcane stuff.

If you find the TW series too unsophisticated, then check out other stuff. Not only are you more likely to find something you like, but you get to stick it to CA in the process.

[Fisherking]

No one gets it do they!

Fine, I laid it on thick about the past, great...

That was a preamble to what came after.


Everyone is pining for Shogun 2 here, meanwhile the kids are voting for another go at Rome...

That is all I was trying to say!

If I laid it on thick about a golden age of games that never really was For Get It...It was about Rome and Not STW2

You got it yet????


edit:



I can’t just leave it...

You guys are like Joe Friday

Embellishment is way over your head it seems....

I bet you send birthday cars like...

Its your birthday huh?

[Braden]

Had a radical thought this morning (and to tentatively get thread back somewhat on track)..ok, not a full new game but an expansion:

Revolution: Total War

Covers -

English AND American Civil Wars using ETW's expanded engine.

Covers those wanting a more "Medieval" style game with the English Civil War and those wanting a more modern feel of mid-late 19th Century warfare with American Civil War.

Maps could be made quite extensive with gameplay similar to ETW with towns, farms etc being outside the regional capitals and the regional capitals a bit more realistically un-advanced.

(yeah, ok, I want an American Civil War game but thought just focusing on that wouldn't really make a good value £20 expansion)

[caravel]

Fisherking actually made a good post and it does sum things up well. Some of you are perhaps too young to know how the gaming industry started out.

Once upon a time hard-core gamers were a force in the market. They bought the high-end machines and the games that ran on them.

This is absolutely true. There was a time when there were hardcore gamers only. Nowadays just about every device can play some kind of game whereas back then you needed a decent PC with a 3D accelerator card or a dedicated console. When I was a lad, my parents would not even let me have an Atari because someone told them that they "break the TV". Being a gamer was being against the system. Everyone disapproved. Parents, teachers, the general public, siblings, even friends. My father expected me to be out on the football pitch, he could not understand gaming or the need for it. Any negative press read in the newspaper or seen on TV about gaming was taken as an excuse to limit my time playing games. I had to be a hardcore gamer.

There were a lot of studios but they all gradually dwindled. They were bought out, went under, or taken over.

This is true as well. Some of the best studios in fact were bought out and then went under or were laid off by the new owners. The small studios innovated and the big publishers simply bought them out and milked the frachise to death. This went on and on until it created the current gaming market.

There are so many developers consigned to history now that it's hard to keep track of them all. In most cases the takeovers of these small stuidios by the big boys such as EA and SEGA has also seen a decline in innovation. Games are now less revolutionary and more formulaic. They stick to what sells and annual profits are the primary concern. Smaller studios try to revolutionise the market and make a name for themselves, this is what keeps good quality games in the pipeline. It is this innovation and originality that has dried up in recent years.

Today it is the mass market and casual gamers that seem to rule the roost.

Nowadays with so many devices capable of running games and the attraction of multiplatform, it's sad that the games industry has gone the same way as the music industry. It is targeted at the widest possible audience and thus is nothing special. It's rather like trying to cook a meal that everyone will like. You will realise that person x does not like tomatoes and that person y dislikes chilli, and person z is not overly keen on spices. What you end up with is something bland, unoriginal and uninspired that is trying to cater for too many tastes. This is what the commerical music industry is like and this is also where gaming is heading.

The time, effort, and heart are not going into these games. It is no longer the feel of the game but the dazzle of the graphics that matter.

The marketing of new games is mostly about screenshots and short demos. Without the revolutionary graphics games will score low with the reviewers and will not impress when it comes to screenshots. This is why the visuals are the main focus. When a potential customer is reading a magazine review it's all "book by the cover". They cannot really make an assessement on AI or gameplay at that point.

Realism is just something for 3D shooters and Historical Accuracy only applies to the lines of Airplanes.

I'm not entirely convinced that TW needs "realism" in the sense of realistic terrain and graphical violence. The realism required is at the physical level, i.e. trajectories, windage, weather, fatigue, morale atc. TW game have lacked any semblance of this since MTW and for other games, except simulations, this kind of realism is never a priority. TW has followed the same path, where 'realism' has become purely visual.

Most only have enough grasp of history and geography to know that Rome was a long time ago and Europe isn’t a province of Canada.

Somewhat of a generalisation. I don't think historical accuracy is the real issue. I would not care if CA made Dungeons & Dragons - Total War, so long as the tactical battles and proper physics, balanced units and gameplay returned with better support for the MP community.

So, just expect Rome II and when they are up to it WWII...

R2TW will probably be next, WWI and WWII would be unworkable IMHO, due to the unsuitability of the TW engine. Other types of games can do that better.

[Braden]

I’m not too young but at the time I just cared little about the details other than trying to get my BASIC written software (that I’d taken three days to type in) to work on my Vic-20.

I’d hate to see a RTWII mainly because so many Mods have already made the game just about good enough in my opinion and it’s a “well flogged horse”

Asia, Helenistic or Civil Wars is the way to go! New territory, that’s how CA will get new and more custom, not re-hashing products already available for under £5 on eBay (oh yeah…and without the STEAM fecking about).

I also agree that either world wars is just not suitable for the type of Battle scenario TW games use. The Campaign however would be awesome…but the battles pretty much a mess.

EDIT – Modern warfare (i.e. 20th Century) just moves TOO FAST for an appropriate level of Realism vs. Numbers of Units vs. Number of Men per side vs. weapons available.

Air combat would be a MUST and it also has to be at the same time as ground battles means its really unworkable.

[gardibolt]

Well, this part is kind of ridiculous:

Well, I guess we need to face it.

Once upon a time hard-core gamers were a force in the market. They bought the high-end machines and the games that ran on them.

My computer is dual core, blah blah blah, about a year and a half old, runs M2TW on all the highest settings, Can You Run It insists I more than meet all minimum specs, but it's actually too poor to run E:TW, at all. I figured, maybe low settings, but nothing, at all, zippo. With this game, CA has moved way beyond what the casual gamer is capable of, unless your idea of the casual gamer is buying the latest Alienware Deluxe every three months. It's clearly intended ONLY for the hardcorest of the hardcore gamers because no one with a casual computer rig can play it.

[Braden]

Well, this part is kind of ridiculous:




My computer is dual core, blah blah blah, about a year and a half old, runs M2TW on all the highest settings, Can You Run It insists I more than meet all minimum specs, but it's actually too poor to run E:TW, at all. I figured, maybe low settings, but nothing, at all, zippo. With this game, CA has moved way beyond what the casual gamer is capable of, unless your idea of the casual gamer is buying the latest Alienware Deluxe every three months. It's clearly intended ONLY for the hardcorest of the hardcore gamers because no one with a casual computer rig can play it.

Not so sure with that. Seems the 1.5 patch has significantly effected the performance of the game on systems that were happily running it on 1.4.

My PC is by No means top flight and built on a shoe-string budget and it, like yours, runs M2 at the highest settings on everything BUT judders and stutters with ver.1.5 of Empire. Fortunately, it does this mainly on the campaign screen when a turn is started or on the battle map if I zoom in for a close up.

My spec is only:

AMD X2 5000 processor
ATi 4650 512mb GFX card
2Gb Corsair 800mhz CL4 RAM

Hardly a “hard core” PC.