Dev blog #3

[al Roumi]

"It's all SEGA's fault."

Exactly. Why on earth is he saying that though? Is it meant to deflect criticism of CA to their publisher? Will SEGA be happy with that?

Then contradicting the same point by saying "it's almost so much a part of life that its not worth mentioning" is all the more confusing. He's as incoherent as the fans he rails against!

What is the point of the blog?

Diversion? So that people complain about somehting other than ETW?

[kayapó]

Exactly. Why on earth is he saying that though? Is it meant to deflect criticism of CA to their publisher? Will SEGA be happy with that?

Then contradicting the same point by saying "it's almost so much a part of life that its not worth mentioning" is all the more confusing. He's as incoherent as the fans he rails against!

What is the point of the blog?

Diversion? So that people complain about somehting other than ETW?

You know, english is not my mother language and yet I can actually read his blog and understand what he says.

Is it really so hard to understand that his point is saying that the whole "money first" agenda is actually what keeps things running?
He isn't blaming Sega, if anything he is blaming life and how our world revolves arounds money.

I mean seriously, is it really that hard to just read what he is saying.

Mind you I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with his blog, actually he isn't writing for people to agree or not, but most people just glance over the words and read whatever they want not even making the smallest effort to understand what he is saying.

Diversion? Are you serious? By maintaining this blog he is not only putting his face out there to be bashed by senseless accusations but most of all he is keeping the argument alive. This is paradise for neurotic people that need the fix of beloging to a group that bashes on something (not you, just in general)

Anyway to me the part of the blog that stands out is when he said "occasionally successfully!". This is something that just seems to slip by most people. Making big complex strategy games, especially one of the scope of TW series, is not science. This is not a car, it is a colective artistic work. It is a combination of ideas translated to computer code. Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't work so well.

Either way I think making a post here is basically pointless since the crowd will always scream and shout when it comes to bashing something together on the internet.

If it ever calms down a bit it might actually see that ETW is a very ambitious game that was unfortunatly rushed. That's it, no conspiracy theories. Not the end of the world, nobody is going to die because of this. The game after all it's patches is actually quite nice if you ask me and totally worth my time and money, but hey...that's me.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

This is paradise for neurotic people that need the fix of beloging to a group that bashes on something (not you, just in general)

Don't get between me and my fix.

And the "money first" argument is absolutely hogwash. Paradox makes arcane spreadsheet games that appeal to a smaller niche, and they're not whining about money problems when their game is buggy. They patch it. Same with plenty of smaller developers who focus on appealing to their core demographic and making the game actually work for them. If casual gamers like it, great, but that's not the focus.

CA's heads got too big for their coders after MTW.

[kayapó]

And the "money first" argument is absolutely hogwash. Paradox makes arcane spreadsheet games that appeal to a smaller niche, and they're not whining about money problems when their game is buggy. They patch it.

In my opinion you are far from correct here. While CA and Paradox are very different in size, the issues that Paradox is having right now are very similar in cause to what happened with ETW.

In the end it comes down to a company only having so much money to alocate to a certain task. In case of Paradox they couldn't afford to test HOI3 forever while knowing that the game was so ambitious and big that it would take a year to play test it with their very limited testing capabilities. For CA it isn't that different, you have to release the game because well...where is the money going to come from to pay the bills?

The paycheks for salaries at CA must not be a joke. Have you ever thought about where the money comes to pay for that when they are between releases? How much money must CA pay every month in salaries and support. This isn't a joke, they probably (I have no idea actually) get the money for development from the publisher and the publisher sets a deadline to get its investment back. CA then does the best it can, with ETW it got a bit out of control, the game was just a bit too big in ideas for it's own good and when the deadline came they just had to cut losses and do what they could.

I'm sorry but I just don't buy into the whole conspiracy theory, we know better then everyone, case where CA is just dumb and can't do a thing right.

And in the end, it is for the money rigtht? But to get more money they need to be doing something right, if they are really so far from doing anything remotely correct then I'm sure CA will be bankrupt in no time.

No please don't think I'm advocating against criticism or argumenting that they could have done differently or better. I just don't buy the whole "we know better, they are stupid" idea.

I know it sounds provocative but please allow me, if CA's business ways are so so bad that every single person on forums around the world would do thousands of times better then they if at the helm of the company, somehow I just don't think they would be in business at all.

[gollum]

Originally posted by kayapó
While CA and Paradox are very different in size, the issues that Paradox is having right now are very similar in cause to what happened with ETW.

Its similar at release only, afterwards its light years away; paradox patches years after, CA has already stopped after 6 months. This is while there is good indication that the majority of players thinks that ETW needs more:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/poll....ts&pollid=3483

For CA it isn't that different, you have to release the game because well...where is the money going to come from to pay the bills?

Again for CA its vastly different because their patch policy is as their state-at-release policy: not good that is. As for the money, is coming in abundance by people who think just like you

...they probably (I have no idea actually)....

Thanks for conclusively clearing the matter then...

I'm sorry but I just don't buy into the whole conspiracy theory...

Its perfectly clear that you dont; you instead buy broken games that stay broken from a company that promises to fix them before release and plays deaf after, 3 times in a row (5 if you count the expansions), and after all this you still advocate faith in them. You have fun your way, others in their way...

And in the end, it is for the money rigtht? But to get more money they need to be doing something right, if they are really so far from doing anything remotely correct then I'm sure CA will be bankrupt in no time.

Well, then in that case corporations and the mafia must be doing everything right
And i think to myself...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnRqYMTpXHc

No please don't think I'm advocating against criticism or argumenting that they could have done differently or better.

Never crossed my mind...

I just don't buy the whole "we know better, they are stupid" idea.

Indeed, you seem to fondly prefer the whole "buy broken buggy games and shut up" one.

I know it sounds provocative but please allow me, if CA's business ways are so so bad that every single person on forums around the world would do thousands of times better then they if at the helm of the company, somehow I just don't think they would be in business at all.

On the other hand, and far less provocatively, if every single person on forums followed your line they would never go out of business. Absolute genious

[kayapó]

Its perfectly clear that you dont; you instead buy broken games that stay broken from a company that promises to fix them before release and plays deaf after, 3 times in a row (5 if you count the expansions), and after all this you still advocate faith in them. You have fun your way, others in their way...

I actually am very found of constructive discussions. Not on the internet for obvious reasons but still. Merelly picking appart the text and taking quick jabs like this is a "who has the last word" game doesn't really come out as being fair.

Even though you totally ignored the main idea behind my posts I'll respond to you. What I personally do with my own money and time is actually not relevant for this discussion at all but if you must know I would never buy a game from a big published like Sega right off the box. I actually only bought ETW when I read the forums and comments on how 1.4 was going. I am very happy with my purchase and while I do find annoying glitches in the game it has payed up to its price more then enough.

That said, and what actually matters, is that people read the CA blog and don't even try to understand what he is saying, pretty much like you basically ignored my whole post to just take potshots at it. It is so much easier to just point the finger isn't it?

The way I see it, nothing good can come out of the senseless bashing that goes on most cases like this. There is hardly anything constructive that comes out of these discussions.

kayapó - I did not bring up Paradox as an example of a company that is immune to buggy releases or market pressures. I brought them up as an example of a company that is prosperous while focusing only on their core fanbase. Their games are not casual-gamer friendly. And yet they are still in business, while providing superior post-release support.

Maybe you haven't been following the boards at Paradox but the mood there was very low following the release of HOI3. Oh and guess what most posts, I mean really all of them, were downright accusing Paradox of: "only wants our money", "doesn't care about hardcore fans", "gave in to market pressure and new consumers and dumbed down the game", please stop me when any of that sounds familiar.

I mean seriously if you just go right now and take a glance at the main HOI3 forums and go back one or two pages you'd be hard pressed to think it isn't ETW's forums when it was released.

Anyway...comparing Paradox and CA is not really fair, Paradox is like 12 people with a few very talented and passionate coders that just keep the ball rolling. CA is huge, it's not even close to comparable.

Now you can argue that despite being smaller you like Paradox's games better or that their patch policy (which is extremely controversial believe me) is better and more fair to consumers, but again they are different companies, different games and it is down to your choice.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

kayapó - I did not bring up Paradox as an example of a company that is immune to buggy releases or market pressures. I brought them up as an example of a company that is prosperous while focusing only on their core fanbase. Their games are not casual-gamer friendly. And yet they are still in business, while providing superior post-release support.

How can they do that while CA can't? It apparently doesn't have anything to do with "survival" because Paradox has been in the biz for a while and doesn't look like they're going under. If CA can't afford to make games they want to play without drastic compromises in quality, then maybe they've become too big and need a few lean years to trim the fat.

I'm not going to feed the beast anymore. I bought RTW and M2TW because of the quality of MTW. I'm not going to give them the benefit of the doubt anymore.

[al Roumi]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You know, english is not my mother language and yet I can actually read his blog and understand what he says.

Is it really so hard to understand that his point is saying that the whole "money first" agenda is actually what keeps things running?
He isn't blaming Sega, if anything he is blaming life and how our world revolves arounds money.

I mean seriously, is it really that hard to just read what he is saying.

Mind you I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with his blog, actually he isn't writing for people to agree or not, but most people just glance over the words and read whatever they want not even making the smallest effort to understand what he is saying.

Diversion? Are you serious? By maintaining this blog he is not only putting his face out there to be bashed by senseless accusations but most of all he is keeping the argument alive. This is paradise for neurotic people that need the fix of beloging to a group that bashes on something (not you, just in general)

Anyway to me the part of the blog that stands out is when he said "occasionally successfully!". This is something that just seems to slip by most people. Making big complex strategy games, especially one of the scope of TW series, is not science. This is not a car, it is a colective artistic work. It is a combination of ideas translated to computer code. Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't work so well.

Either way I think making a post here is basically pointless since the crowd will always scream and shout when it comes to bashing something together on the internet.

If it ever calms down a bit it might actually see that ETW is a very ambitious game that was unfortunatly rushed. That's it, no conspiracy theories. Not the end of the world, nobody is going to die because of this. The game after all it's patches is actually quite nice if you ask me and totally worth my time and money, but hey...that's me.

Woah! Thanks to Gollum and Alexander the Pretty Good for fielding this one before me...

However, as far as I'm concerned kayapó, for saying the following, you lose all right to pass judgment on my view:

...but if you must know I would never buy a game from a big published like Sega right off the box. I actually only bought ETW when I read the forums and comments on how 1.4 was going. I am very happy with my purchase and while I do find annoying glitches in the game it has payed up to its price more then enough.

What conspiracy theories are you harping on about? The simple fact is ETW was sold (1.0) as a product which did not live up to the expectations that had been built for it. CA seem to have had difficulty accepting that people have a right to be disapointed with them -and I'm sure SEGA gave them a kicking for it.

Business is business. A company that aims high and fails to deliver will end up the same way as one that aims low and doesn't deliver. It's a harsh reality and SEGA are probably not people to take business lightly. Personaly, I don't care who makes the products I buy, as long as they deliver.

But anyway, this is where our understanding differs, or where you have already been through the experience and learned from it -as you waited, and then bought ETW at 1.4. Had ETW 1.5 been released in March 09, I would not have been disapointed and you would not need to be so provocative.

[Fisherking]

You know what?


I can understand the tendency to try to place blame some place else on the part of the Bloger.

But it is still sniveling.

ETW on release was as buggy as a Texas Bean Field, but you know, it isn't now.

They kept their word for the most part and fixed it.

When a problem ceases to be a problem the best thing to do is to go on with life.

Let it go and stop living in the past.

I am sure that both CA and Sega have learned something from this release. I do hope that what they learned is to our benefit.

In ETW now there is a crash reporting system that gives them data to try to identify the problem so it can be fixed.

What Sega found though is a little more disturbing. They found that CA can make them a real bundle when they are in financial trouble.

This is just my opinion, but I think that NTW was slated to be the ETW expansion. It is coming a year from the original release date from ETW.

So Sega must think that the expansion could be a full game and therefore be more profitable.

I am not feeling ripped of, for one thing I haven’t bought it. But I do find it interesting and maybe a touch peculiar, with regards to previous releases.

I think it might be more productive to look at what is coming than what is done and gone.

It doesn’t hurt to remember what happened so that you might know what to expect.

It is just time to dry the tears and move on.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Fisherking
I am sure that both CA and Sega have learned something from this release.

Me too - its the same lesson they learned from the release of RTW and M2TW; that making hyper hyped, buggy unbalanced games with weak AI and flashy graphics and patch them up to the point the majority of SPers cannot tell the bugs anymore, brings in the dough. Its a good one.

Napoleon here we come to live it once more all over again and full price this time!

Alright Fisherking i get the point and clear off now. Apologies ladies and gentlemen.

[Fisherking]

I don’t imagine that CA wants to come off looking like a bunch of money grubbing fools every release.

I doubt that NTW will have near the problems that ETW had.

That doesn’t mean I am going out and preorder it though.

Maybe I will wait for a couple of patches and a price break...


It doesn’t mean we haven’t learned too.

[Martok]

People, please. Asai Nagamasa already called for us to remain civil and respectful of each other; it pains me to feel the need to do so again.


For what it's worth, I do believe the Total War series is geared more towards the hardcore players than casual players. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean it will actually *appeal* to hardcore players -- Yours Truly being one example -- but I do still think that CA continues to gun for that segment of the market as much as (they feel) they can.