Dragon Age Poll: RPG-ness

[al Roumi]

That sounds incredibly boring. Especially since it is not a god, it is more like "I can't die and I one-shot everything."

In the context of ME or FO3, where (as discussed above) the game gets easier once you become proficient in your core skills so that you are more effective at VATS or juggling enemies with biotics, yes. The fun of combat at the end game is deploying the full range of your skills.

BG2 somehow didn't end up that unbalanced for me. By the end, when you were nearing God-status, you were fighting other gods -so it remained a challenge.

I do find it weird that more isn't done to increase the challenge in the latter stages of many of these games. I've just finished off Broken Steel in FO3 and I have to say that the fight in the presidential metro with about 10 ghoul reavers and glowing ones was surprisingly challenging compared to anything I'd come up against in the game for a while. I ultimately solved the issue with a few mini-nukes but I hadn't used the Fatman since the GNR plaza fight.

It's also the same problem as with CIV4 for example, its a rewarding challenge until you reach a comfortable supremacy over your rivals. I have to say, I haven't finished 90% of my CIV games because of that fact.

[Beskar]

The problem I find with Civ4 is you can't build armies seperately and it is this fact which ends up making the game more boring, as it is too tasking to actually bother building armies. Also since you are advancing so fast, by the time you build an army, you lost a lot due to missed building turns which bring all sorts of other troubles and they all need upgrading.

[frogbeastegg]

BG2 somehow didn't end up that unbalanced for me. By the end, when you were nearing God-status, you were fighting other gods -so it remained a challenge.

That's one thing the AD&D brought to the series that I can praise without hesitation. Each step you took up the power ladder there was another nasty on the rung above waiting. Said nasty was a threat - and creature - in its own right and not a reskin of an old foe with more HP.

The climb from BG1, to Tales of the Sword Coast, to BG2, and finally to Throne of Baal remains my standout example of how to handle epic levels and sustained player power growth. If Bioware can't replicate the effect for Mass Effect 2 then I shall be very disappointed. I suspect they won't manage it; AD&D enemy design had millions of players and years of experience put into it.

[Beskar]

But wouldn't hitting the roof be more realistic, in a sense? Becoming as powerful as you could ever be, then make the game more about players skill of managing tactics, style and ability?

[Vladimir]

I'd prefer a variety of challenges. It seems a little gamey to always have the next challenge be bigger and better. Where's the joy of discovery? Sure you may be disappointed when you find out your target is a small fry but the lows make the highs that much better.

Facing a variety of threats is much more fun. Unconventional is good.

[frogbeastegg]

BG series mixed both. Sometimes you had hordes of lower threat enemies and the danger came from their numbers. Others you found a dragon waiting behind the door. Many environments had traps too, and they could complicate fights something chronic.

Most RPGs decrease in difficulty as your character powers up. Stomping around the world with god-like powers is fun for a short while and then quickly becomes dull once you realise that the battles are a waste of your time. It's nice to know that there's always something nastier to try out your upgraded skills on.

[Vladimir]

Agreed. That is one reason I liked Morrowind so much but didn't buy Oblivion. Scaling doesn't appeal to me.

DA:O is ridiculously tough at times but proper battle management almost always guarantees a victory on Hard. One reason I switched from fighters to rogues was the increased combat challenge.

[TinCow]

But wouldn't hitting the roof be more realistic, in a sense? Becoming as powerful as you could ever be, then make the game more about players skill of managing tactics, style and ability?

I think the Baldur's Gate series is somewhat unique in that it truly is epic. Other games have claimed to be 'epic' in scale, but they rarely are. In BG, you start as a kid who's never left a glorified library and eventually become a God. Not a 'minor' God either, one of the big ones. The final Throne of Bhaal campaign actually represents these very well, by throwing massive hordes of enemies at you that barely slow you down. You truly feel like you're nearing God-hood when you carve your way through actual armies almost single-handedly. The challenges aren't the mortals you're fighting, they are your fellow competitors for the vacant God seat, and they are also essentially demi-gods themselves.

As for the game being about tactics... there are few games in existence that have ever done tactical combat as well as the BG series. Indeed, by the end of the final campaign, your enemies are so difficult that you often have to use very precisely timed and coordinated tactics to bring down their defenses and eliminate them before they overwhelm you. And that's with the nerfed battles that the game shipped with. The designers later released unofficial mods which restored the final battles to their original difficulty level. Those battles are some of the hardest parts I have ever experienced in any game ever, regardless of genre... and that's WHILE you're essentially a god.

This is one of the reasons people revere the BG series so much: not only a great storyline, but absolutely superb combat from beginning to end.

[Vladimir]

I think the Baldur's Gate series is somewhat unique in that it truly is epic. Other games have claimed to be 'epic' in scale, but they rarely are. In BG, you start as a kid who's never left a glorified library and eventually become a God. Not a 'minor' God either, one of the big ones. The final Throne of Bhaal campaign actually represents these very well, by throwing massive hordes of enemies at you that barely slow you down. You truly feel like you're nearing God-hood when you carve your way through actual armies almost single-handedly. The challenges aren't the mortals you're fighting, they are your fellow competitors for the vacant God seat, and they are also essentially demi-gods themselves.

As for the game being about tactics... there are few games in existence that have ever done tactical combat as well as the BG series. Indeed, by the end of the final campaign, your enemies are so difficult that you often have to use very precisely timed and coordinated tactics to bring down their defenses and eliminate them before they overwhelm you. And that's with the nerfed battles that the game shipped with. The designers later released unofficial mods which restored the final battles to their original difficulty level. Those battles are some of the hardest parts I have ever experienced in any game ever, regardless of genre... and that's WHILE you're essentially a god.

This is one of the reasons people revere the BG series so much: not only a great storyline, but absolutely superb combat from beginning to end.

Quoted for truth. The designers have a right to be proud of their work.

I have a problem with games like DA:O try to emulate that success. I say strike out and make your own. Then people will refer to BG as two letters with outdated graphics.

[Meneldil]

I think the Baldur's Gate series is somewhat unique in that it truly is epic. Other games have claimed to be 'epic' in scale, but they rarely are. In BG, you start as a kid who's never left a glorified library and eventually become a God. Not a 'minor' God either, one of the big ones. The final Throne of Bhaal campaign actually represents these very well, by throwing massive hordes of enemies at you that barely slow you down. You truly feel like you're nearing God-hood when you carve your way through actual armies almost single-handedly. The challenges aren't the mortals you're fighting, they are your fellow competitors for the vacant God seat, and they are also essentially demi-gods themselves.

As for the game being about tactics... there are few games in existence that have ever done tactical combat as well as the BG series. Indeed, by the end of the final campaign, your enemies are so difficult that you often have to use very precisely timed and coordinated tactics to bring down their defenses and eliminate them before they overwhelm you. And that's with the nerfed battles that the game shipped with. The designers later released unofficial mods which restored the final battles to their original difficulty level. Those battles are some of the hardest parts I have ever experienced in any game ever, regardless of genre... and that's WHILE you're essentially a god.

This is one of the reasons people revere the BG series so much: not only a great storyline, but absolutely superb combat from beginning to end.

Two words : Durlag's tower. The best freaking video game dungeon ever.

To my shame, I don't remember that much BG2 expansion. I'd have to replay all the serie just to get to it. I might very well do it if I find the time someday.

[Zenicetus]

But wouldn't hitting the roof be more realistic, in a sense? Becoming as powerful as you could ever be, then make the game more about players skill of managing tactics, style and ability?

There are two problems with that approach, realistic as it may be. First, a certain percentage of the RPG player base is addicted to the leveling process itself as a big part of a game's reward system, and won't have fun once it stops. I'll bet Blizzard lost a chunk of its subscriber base between the level cap for the first version of WoW, and the first major expansion that raised the roof.

Second, when the level cap is hit, there has to be something else to keep the player interested. Suddenly the quality of whatever story line you haven't seen yet, and whatever NPC's you haven't interacted with yet, becomes twice as important.

I noticed this when playing the first two expansion DLC's for Fallout 3, which were released after I hit the level cap in the main campaign (the third expansion after these did raise the level cap). I was much more critical of the quality and length of those first two F3 DLC's, the story lines especially, because my character was already as strong as he was going to get. That's just human nature. Your game had better be really outstanding, if you're going to cap the levels before the player has seen all the content.

[Beskar]

There are two problems with that approach, realistic as it may be. First, a certain percentage of the RPG player base is addicted to the leveling process itself as a big part of a game's reward system, and won't have fun once it stops. I'll bet Blizzard lost a chunk of its subscriber base between the level cap for the first version of WoW, and the first major expansion that raised the roof.

Second, when the level cap is hit, there has to be something else to keep the player interested. Suddenly the quality of whatever story line you haven't seen yet, and whatever NPC's you haven't interacted with yet, becomes twice as important.

I noticed this when playing the first two expansion DLC's for Fallout 3, which were released after I hit the level cap in the main campaign (the third expansion after these did raise the level cap). I was much more critical of the quality and length of those first two F3 DLC's, the story lines especially, because my character was already as strong as he was going to get. That's just human nature. Your game had better be really outstanding, if you're going to cap the levels before the player has seen all the content.

I always enjoy the game more when you don't need to level, so all you have to worry about is having fun and doing the storyline. Nothing is more annoying to me than having to grind, grind, grind just to get access to snippets of that. A reason I really dislike MMORPG's.

[al Roumi]

I always enjoy the game more when you don't need to level, so all you have to worry about is having fun and doing the storyline. Nothing is more annoying to me than having to grind, grind, grind just to get access to snippets of that. A reason I really dislike MMORPG's.

At first I thought I'm more with Zeneticus on this, but then I thought that it shouldn't really be about grinding out out xp to be able to play, the most fun is when you are developing and accessing those new/fresh skills/weapons/tools and using new tactics or options. If you can't play without the skills and your options are limited (i.e. the very early levels as a biotic in ME, or in FO3 trying to fight in VATS without commando or sniper perks), then it can be frustrating and will lead me to play with the primary wish of upping my xp and skills.

[Beskar]

At first I thought I'm more with Zeneticus on this, but then I thought that it shouldn't really be about grinding out out xp to be able to play, the most fun is when you are developing and accessing those new/fresh skills/weapons/tools and using new tactics or options. If you can't play without the skills and your options are limited (i.e. the very early levels as a biotic in ME, or in FO3 trying to fight in VATS without commando or sniper perks), then it can be frustrating and will lead me to play with the primary wish of upping my xp and skills.

I have no problems with psuedo-leveling, which happens in a large part in Dragon Age. Where when you go along playing, you level up at the right pace, so you don't have to grind, but mobs don't become overly easy either.

I dislike the whole MMORPG-esque experience where you have to run around in circles upon circles just to get experience to level up, just to continue the game. The grind-fest style games.

[Meneldil]

I always enjoy the game more when you don't need to level, so all you have to worry about is having fun and doing the storyline. Nothing is more annoying to me than having to grind, grind, grind just to get access to snippets of that. A reason I really dislike MMORPG's.

I've played several MMO's and leveled a dozen of characters to the level cap, and I never ever had to grind.
WoW probably has enough quest to level up the same character to the cap three or four times, and both WAR Online and LotRO can be leveled through questing only. And it's most of the time faster and more rewarding than grinding.