Shooting At Ft.Hood

[Fragony]

euroweenies

This happened in your place, your lemmings, not ours.

[KukriKhan]

In the mythical parallel universe known as Kukri-land, the following people would be prosecuted:


MAJ Hasan
Charge: murder x 12
Verdict: guilty
Sentence: firing squad manned by relatives of the dead


COL Braverman, Hasan's Commander
Charge: Failure to control/command Hasan
Verdict: guilty
Sentence: reduced in rank to PFC, assigned bedpan-cleaning detail for 5 years


Charles Green, Ft Hood G1, in charge of the 300 soldiers at the Readiness Center
Charge: Failure to provide adequate security at the SRC
Verdict: guilty
Sentence: fired, pension forfeited, case referred to victims' families for civil litigation.


Colonel Hill, Commander, USA Garrison Ft Hood
Charge: Failure to provide adequate security at Fort Hood
Verdict: guilty
Sentence: reduced in rank to PFC, assigned permanent guard duty at Camp Renegade, Kirkuk Iraq


LtGen Cone, III Corps Commander
Charge: failure to protect soldiers under his command
Verdict: guilty
Sentence: Reduction in rank to 1st Lieutenent, assigned duty as Platoon Leader in Afghanistan

That's just this morning. This afternoon we move up the chain-of-command, and sideways into law enforcement and intel.

[Lemur]

Gotta admit, I like the Kukri plan. Just once I'd like to see **** roll uphill.

[Major Robert Dump]

They should charge him with an extra murder count since one of the girls was preggers.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Yeah I like that plan too, but the first thing the Joint Chiefs and Directors for the CIA, DIA and other applicable alphabet-soup agencies should have done was immediately lock down the shredders.

[Crazed Rabbit]

From the Washington Times:

Among President Clinton's first acts upon taking office in 1993 was to disarm U.S. soldiers on military bases. In March 1993, the Army imposed regulations forbidding military personnel from carrying their personal firearms and making it almost impossible for commanders to issue firearms to soldiers in the U.S. for personal protection. For the most part, only military police regularly carry firearms on base, and their presence is stretched thin by high demand for MPs in war zones.

Because of Mr. Clinton, terrorists would face more return fire if they attacked a Texas Wal-Mart than the gunman faced at Fort Hood, home of the heavily armed and feared 1st Cavalry Division. That's why a civilian policewoman from off base was the one whose marksmanship ended Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan's rampage.
...
The wife of one of the soldiers shot at Fort Hood understands all too well. In an interview on CNN Monday night, Anchor John Roberts asked Mandy Foster how she felt about her husband's upcoming deployment to Afghanistan. Ms. Foster responded: "At least he's safe there and he can fire back, right?"

It is hard to believe that we don't trust soldiers with guns on an Army base when we trust these very same men in Iraq and Afghanistan. Mr. Clinton's deadly rules even disarmed officers, the most trusted members of the military charged with leading enlisted soldiers in combat. Six of the dead and wounded had commissions.

CR

[Louis VI the Fat]

Interesting is to compare Fort Hood with another shooting a few moths ago, at another US base.

BAGHDAD (The International) — Last week, fatal shooting of five service members at a U.S. military stress clinic in Iraq has prompted a military investigation into how mental health within the armed forces is handled. The alleged gunman, Sgt. John M. Russell, has been charged with five counts of murder and one count of aggravated assault.
Five killed in base shooting

Russell, a communications specialist in the 54th Engineer Battalion, was serving his third tour in Iraq at the Camp Liberty military base and was scheduled to depart the country in August with the rest of his battalion. He had previously served in Bosnia and Kosovo.

Prior to Monday’s shootings, Russell’s superiors, concerned about his mental state, confiscated his weapon and referred him to the camp’s combat stress clinic for psychological counseling. Anonymous witnesses from Camp Liberty reported that Russell argued with a soldier at the clinic, returned later, and used another service member’s weapon to shoot his alleged victims. The five victims killed were all military service members: two clinic staff members and three soldiers at the clinic. Their names were released once their family members were notified. Three additional service members were wounded. Military officials are unclear if Russell knew the victims and are investigating all possible motives.

Edit - and a link, duh: http://theinternationalonline.com/ar...-prompts-quest

[Major Robert Dump]

From the Washington Times:


CR

Maybe officers and senior NCOs.....maybe make guns a little more accessible in the armories....maybe allow individual soldiers to exercise their right to carry based on state and city law etc.....but giving every joe a sidearm stateside is a bad, bad, bad idea, especially if its issued. I like the idea of individual permit use better. Not to demean the service members, but a sizable chunk of the armed forces are young, hot headed men full of piss and vinegar who can't manage their credit, their alcohol or their military career. Letting them roam around post willy nilly with guns is a poor idea.

That being said, i like the idea of certain individuals being able to carry, based on rank, MOS and security clearances. On the other hand, let us not forget our perpetrator in this crime was a MAJOR and the perp in the above post was a senior NCO.

The rules now is that if you have a personal firearm and you bring it onto a base you have to lock it up at the base armorer...not the unit armorer...the base armorer. Long line....paper work...wait wait wait. This is why I wasn't armed when I got shot in Lawton. No point is bringing a gun to Ft Sill if I was going to have to lock it away every morning and pick it up every night. At Virginia I was housed off post, so I kept a weapon on hand there.

On a related note, the deck security on the USS Cole had to keep their weapons and magazines green.

EDIT: Oh, and Bush had 8 years to change that law, but he didn't.
Blaming Clinton is a little far fetched, although I didn't read the whole article because it spiralled into partisan crap pretty quickly

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Because of Mr. Clinton, terrorists would face more return fire if they attacked a Texas Wal-Mart than the gunman faced at Fort Hood, home of the heavily armed and feared 1st Cavalry Division. That's why a civilian policewoman from off base was the one whose marksmanship ended Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan's rampage.

What BS. Did bush change the policy? No. When was the last time the author protested it?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Yeah, it's not Clinton's fault. The point about unarmed soldiers stands.

CR

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Let's blame Clinton for enacting it and Bush for keeping it. Can we move along to the actual issue now?

[Strike For The South]

Death is what this man wants.

[Major Robert Dump]

Yeah I don't think he planned to survive. Which makes me think pork should be introduced into the trial, otherwise he is gonna say a lot of unreliable crap because he knows he is the center of attention. It's basic human behavior to do so when put in this mans situation. Hopefully, he is blocked from outside news and politics so he can't play into it, and his JAGOFF lawyer doesn't play that card.

[Furunculus]

Who is at fault? Let's blame America:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/to...blame-america/

[Husar]

Then what would you suggest? If we lock them up then all the euroweenies and terrorist loving libs will scream louder than a Code Pink hussy in front of a Marine recruiting center. Please, Ole Wise One, give us the wisdom to correct our Barbaric and simple ways. Cure us of our ignorance and bring forth the enlightenment that we've yet to discover.

But honeybunny, I never said I had THE solution, I was just saying that your "solution" might just mean shifting the problem elsewhere, unless of course it were the soldiers harassing him who caused this in which case throwing him out would take away the reason this happened, but so would disciplining the harassers until they stop.
If it was just him going nuts then it should have been reported and he should have been under some sort of surveillance or supervision. Of course then you gun-loving reps would scream louder than a NIMBY grandpa in front of a needle on his front porch.
It's the problem with free speech, in the US you can apparently proclaim to become a mass murderer and still own two legal guns.
Here, when you say the wrong things and get reported, the police are supposed to check you.
PC doesn't seem to stop a lot of people here from reporting such things in general, some imams etc here are closely watched by the law, just like the neo-nazis.

You may also want to comment on my point that is seems a bit illogical that a muslim in the west would go nuts like that if he enjoyed our freedom and democracy as much as everyone else, if he was harassed by other free individuals on a constant basis I could see why he didn't.

[KukriKhan]

Yeah I don't think he planned to survive. Which makes me think pork should be introduced into the trial, otherwise he is gonna say a lot of unreliable crap because he knows he is the center of attention. It's basic human behavior to do so when put in this mans situation. Hopefully, he is blocked from outside news and politics so he can't play into it, and his JAGOFF lawyer doesn't play that card.

I watched his civvie attorney (retired JAG Lt Colonel, hired by his Virginia family) last night on Larry King. He and the active duty MAJ JAG assigned defense lawyer visited the perp in hospital. He was awake, but under meds, so the lawyers explained his right to counsel of his choice, and that was it, Civvie said.

Civvie also said he hadn't yet seen a Charge Sheet. Let's hope the Ft Hood JAG office is meticulous about crossing all the t's and dotting all the i's. We don't want this thing thrown out on some technicality or admin oversight - it's gonna be circus enough as it is.

[Devastatin Dave]

LOL, turns out this guy might have been sending his money to support jihadists in Pakistan. Are the lefty's here still contending that his religion had nothing to do with him "going muslim"?

[Strike For The South]

LOL, turns out this guy might have been sending his money to support jihadists in Pakistan. Are the lefty's here still contending that his religion had nothing to do with him "going muslim"?

I missed this stuff.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I missed this stuff.

It was in the Dallas News, Pete Hoekstra appears to be one of the primary sources for it. We have to wait until more details emerge before we can be sure though.

[Strike For The South]

It was in the Dallas News, Pete Hoekstra appears to be one of the primary sources for it. We have to wait until more details emerge before we can be sure though.

Well there's your problem. I don't read anything that comes out of New York.

[A Very Super Market]

I think an Ottawa editorialist summed it up well. I quote him, for I descend into madness whenever I try to write anything of worth.

"......It's possible that this was an act both of madness and terrorism. Marc Lépine was in a state of derangement when he committed the 1989 Monstreal massacre, but his derangement expressed itself as hatred of women. It is impossible to analyse the Montreal massacre without talking about misogyny, just as it's impossible to talk about Fort Hood or honour killings without talking about religion."

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I think an Ottawa editorialist summed it up well. I quote him, for I descend into madness whenever I try to write anything of worth.

"......It's possible that this was an act both of madness and terrorism. Marc Lépine was in a state of derangement when he committed the 1989 Monstreal massacre, but his derangement expressed itself as hatred of women. It is impossible to analyse the Montreal massacre without talking about misogyny, just as it's impossible to talk about Fort Hood or honour killings without talking about religion."

I disagree. Well, certainly it is possible. But it's presumptive to say that there aren't any features of islam that might push people towards suicide attacks. Cults can lead to mass suicide, right? Sure you have to have a certain braintype to be susceptible, but that might be more common than we'd like to acknowledge.

[Husar]

LOL, turns out this guy might have been sending his money to support jihadists in Pakistan. Are the lefty's here still contending that his religion had nothing to do with him "going muslim"?

You must have missed that I have long shifted my argument from "what made him go crazy?" to "what made him go crazy/muslim fundy?" And you still haven't answered that question, your argument seems to be that he was genetically a muslim fundamentalist, it could have never been changed, only he is to blame for being born that way and he should have been cleansed by fire, or something like that.

[Fragony]

You must have missed that I have long shifted my argument from "what made him go crazy?" to "what made him go crazy/muslim fundy?" And you still haven't answered that question, your argument seems to be that he was genetically a muslim fundamentalist, it could have never been changed, only he is to blame for being born that way and he should have been cleansed by fire, or something like that.

Hussy if someone is nasty to you give them a good beating. If you let it happen until you crack you are simply a pussy who should ask himself if this world really was his sort of thing in the first place, but at least do it without ruining the lives of people that can manage all that.

edit, was a few years back, saw an old classmate, I really wrecked his life he said, even went into therapy. I never noticed I did such a thing I really had no idea what he was talking about until he told me and then I agreed. But there was never any harm intended.

[Vuk]

hmmm...interesting.

[Husar]

Hussy if someone is nasty to you give them a good beating. If you let it happen until you crack you are simply a pussy who should ask himself if this world really was his sort of thing in the first place, but at least do it without ruining the lives of people that can manage all that.

Yeah, well, some people can't just beat someone up so they go a level higher in weaponry and get a gun, but it takes a load of stored anger for them to dare that step and once they're there it ends up being a rampage of revenge. Kinda preventable if the other guy just stops being nasty to them, but hey, his choice, it's most likely him who might get shot in the end anyway...
Some things fight back in ways you didn't expect, just respect other people and you're usually fine.
I used to beat up some guy who was nasty to me almost every day in primary school. After a long time my dad suggested I warn him three times before beating the **** out of him until he ran screaming to the teacher, we kind of became friends in the end...
That sort of approach doesn't always work but when people snap it's often because they really feel hopeless, like the whole world hates them(might be rather subjective but we all are at times), I think this can often be prevented, remember in many school shootings people are spared because they were nice or at least neutral towards the shooter, so it isn't only blind rage and stupidity, there is often(maybe not always) a reason for this.

Now here you can say he did it because he was a fundie, but maybe he only became a fundie because he wasn't even accepted as a moderate, just a guess but worth considering I think.

[Devastatin Dave]

You must have missed that I have long shifted my argument from "what made him go crazy?" to "what made him go crazy/muslim fundy?" And you still haven't answered that question, your argument seems to be that he was genetically a muslim fundamentalist, it could have never been changed, only he is to blame for being born that way and he should have been cleansed by fire, or something like that.

What was the question? I was too busy ranting, trolling, and lambasting liberals and euroweenies to remember.

[KukriKhan]

What was the question? I was too busy ranting, trolling, and lambasting liberals and euroweenies to remember.

LOL. Truth from Teh Devastator. Who knew Dave could use the word "lambasting" in a sentence? He knows I love him.

...people snap it's often because they really feel hopeless...

When trying to describe the shooter's mental state some time prior to the shooting, I think you're right on.

Not that it excuses the atrocity, just maybe explains it.

Thus: Hopeless(can't find a woman; can't get respect from peers, superiors, or clients)>search for reason to keep breathing>find a cause>amplify with guilt (I'm Muslim, in America (satan), in the instrument (army) that kills my newfound brothers)>adopt direct violent action as an option>purchase an anti-armour firearm (in case I decide to go through with it)>practice loading and reloading in my lonely apartment, imagining how they will finally fear, if not respect, me)>receive Mobilization order and notice to report to SRC>plan an outburst>shoot>die (gloriously).

That may well have been how it went inside Nidal's head, the "snap" happening at the "...search for reason to keep breathing>find a cause...>" stage - everything else simply falling into place.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Thus: Hopeless(can't find a woman; can't get respect from peers, superiors, or clients)>search for reason to keep breathing>find a cause>amplify with guilt (I'm Muslim, in America (satan), in the instrument (army) that kills my newfound brothers)>adopt direct violent action as an option>purchase an anti-armour firearm (in case I decide to go through with it)>practice loading and reloading in my lonely apartment, imagining how they will finally fear, if not respect, me)>receive Mobilization order and notice to report to SRC>plan an outburst>shoot>die (gloriously).

That may well have been how it went inside Nidal's head, the "snap" happening at the "...search for reason to keep breathing>find a cause...>" stage - everything else simply falling into place.

This sounds very likely to me, good post.

I have heard it said that islam lends itself to having more single young men than other religions.

[Devastatin Dave]

This sounds very likely to me, good post.

I have heard it said that islam lends itself to having more single young men than other religions.

So we need to get the Middle East laid or Lemur and I need to show them the joys of gay sex.