Golden Horde!

[caravel]

My standard anti-horde formations are pretty unimaginitive and boil down to something like this:

---------GEN------BOW-----BOW-----BOW---CAV-CAV

--MS/CFK/BILL---SPR----SPR----SPR----SPR---MS/CFK/BILL
-----------ARB^------ARB^-------ARB^-------ARB^


When it comes to the Turks in early/high:

--GEN--TF/FUT--TF/FUT--TF/FUT--TF/FUT---TH-TH

--GHAZI---SRC----SRC----SRC----SRC---GHAZI
-----------------CRB^------CRB^


And once Janissaries are available (high/late):

---GEN----------JI------JI------JI----------TH-TH

--JHI-JHI---SRC----SRC----SRC----SRC---JHI-JHI
-----------------CRB^------CRB^


The Byzantines are an interesting faction with which to take on the Horde as they have no decent spears available. It would be interesting to know which units/tactics/formations people use?

[bondovic]

So the way I feel is, using CS/SI/AS is just prolonging the battle and making things unnecessarily complicated, when you can just use Halberdiers to directly crush the charging cavalry without any fancy maneuvers.

I think I gave you the benefit of the doubt in my very first post regarding this. And as I emphasized in my latest - the issue is killing speed vs. kill/death ratio effectiveness. (But maybe you're not questioning the use of spears per se, as much as simply arguing in favor of the speed-kill-doctrine? Because it's more fun? Granted, I can see that.)

Regarding the flanking, I don't do halbs. Of course. They're too slow, as we all know. Being a Turk player I favor Ghazis. Charge + atk + armor piercing makes them better than any cavalry available for that purpose. Add in their speed and morale and you see why they excel. AAMOF, I prefer infantry flankers for some reason. I think it has to do with them being easier to control. They don't take up so much space and they turn smoother than cavalry. This is defensive flanking, though. When I have to come way around on the offense I go with cavalry.

It's genuinely hard for me to imagine how trying to flank MHC like that could be preferable when defending on hills (as the units recieving the charge will be holding the high ground and I'd really want to use that power to kill, whereas flankers will need to fight uphill, making the whole maneuver much less effective). Will you at least give me that? On flat ground, as you see from my new question, I am not at all as confident in my knowledge :P Still, even so it's hard for me to imagine how you could flank very well with anything but cavalry.

Well. When defending the high ground, you can maybe start to discount the effect of pinning/flanking. But only because the halbs will have better staying power, not because the flanking manouver would be less effective. Sure, they'd be fighting uphill, but that only impacts negatively on their charge. They'd still afflict the flankees with the morale drop and would still get the atk bonus for fighting into an enemy's rear. Also, if done properly, you'd tilt your spears' heading so they'd be 'half facing' your flanking unit. This opens up the rear of the unit charging your spears to your flankers. At this point they wont be charging uphill, even. It's kind of tricky, and not the sort of thing you'd be interested in, judging by your preference for speedy, nothing-fancy killing.

Soooo... the point remains - speed vs effectiveness (but with a smaller gap). Going balls out can get you some entertaining and spectacular victories, but that style is so much more vulnerable to x-factors and small mistakes.

[PershsNhpios]

Thank you Gollum!

And allow me to answer Vantek's primary question:

He may have gaps in his front line, but the enemy cannot possibly filter through them for very weight of firepower.
Thus they are not gaps, but contours of a staggered or 'loose' formation.

Please note that I have in fact fought battles east of the Danuvio, in fact I have fought against every faction except the Horde, but I don't expect them to be similar to fighting Turks.

Is it better to be Turkic in 1230A.D.?

Judging by Nagamasa's Turkic formation, it appears that the Turcoman foot, and especially the Janissary infantry would be excellent matches for the horde, and far more suitable than any western selection.

Is this agreed?

[Vantek]

bondovic, I think we are starting to approach mutual understanding :) I would summarise at this point that I might be underestimating the effectiveness of a rear attack and paying too little attention to battles on flat ground, and you might be underestimating the difference between uphill vs downhill.

But maybe you're not questioning the use of spears per se, as much as simply arguing in favor of the speed-kill-doctrine? Because it's more fun? Granted, I can see that.

It's certainly a strong reason why I would use this approach even if it was less effective, but as I'll explain below I am not yet sure it is less effective.

When defending the high ground, you can maybe start to discount the effect of pinning/flanking. But only because the halbs will have better staying power, not because the flanking manouver would be less effective. Sure, they'd be fighting uphill, but that only impacts negatively on their charge.

According to all my knowledge and experience, this is not true. Fighting uphill reduces attack in standard melee after the charge, and the effect can be very large. I remember reading it from the game numbers (effective attack factor in actual soldier vs soldier after the charge is dependent on height difference). And long before reading that I had developed an intuition in the game that a battle between units of equal power level can result in one absolutely decimating the other because of height difference, disregarding the charge.

I always, always, ALWAYS want to hold the high ground. Always always ALWAYS. High ground is the "most key" factor in MTW in my mind. If I have Halberdiers on decent slope, and they get charged into from below by MHC, I expect the fight to go heavily in my favour considering unit values, maybe 3:1. Versus MHC, I do not expect to achieve such a kill ratio by the best possible uphill rear charge. Can you really beat that with spearmen + flanking maneuver on hills? Or does Halberdiers getting charged into result in a worse kill ratio in your experience?

It's kind of tricky, and not the sort of thing you'd be interested in, judging by your preference for speedy, nothing-fancy killing.

My main concern with that move would be not the slowness or fanciness, but abandoning high ground, the risk of leaving gaps in the line, leaving the tilted unit's flank exposed, in short greatly increasing the x-factor you yourself do not seem to appreciate :P It is possible that the x-factor would not be increased if I had better skill, but the extent to which you discount the negative effect of fighting uphill for a rear charge sounds like a more important factor in our disagreement.

If I think about it, on flat ground however I would not feel nearly as confident getting Halberdiers charged into. Do you fight a lot on flat ground? Maybe the thing is that you fight more on flat ground than me, and spear+flankers works very well there, while direct halberdier crush is better when you hold high ground, which is the only place where I feel comfortable :P

And allow me to answer Vantek's primary question:

He may have gaps in his front line, but the enemy cannot possibly filter through them for very weight of firepower.
Thus they are not gaps, but contours of a staggered or 'loose' formation.

You mean tight, loose, wedge, THAT kind of loose formation? :S Doesn't that strip spearmen of all rank bonuses and some of their already low morale??

[gollum]

Originally posted by Vantek
Erm, what is the difference? Are the spears stretched into very thin lines? That doesn't sound right. Aren't there gaps in your front line? Won't enemy cavalry come through those gaps to attack the Arbalesters?

Not as many as if you had no spears in front. Then its up to the arbs to punish them with mass fire volleys and if required bring the elites to back them up, although this is hardly necessary especially if you deploy them in depth.

You seem to think that water can either fully pass if there is no fence or fully be stoped if there is a solid fence.

What this formations allows for is a partial fence that lets little water to pass in turn so you can gulp it down. There is a world of difference between 4-5 MHC charging the arbs simultaneously and one or two passing through the spears in each wave. This is precisely the strength of the formation. Put in the depth of the arbs and the good work of flankers and you are in for some serious piles of dead horsies.

It seems to me that you cannot imagine a more cooperative play between ap flankers, spears and arbs, because so far you were dealing with this with mass melee troops and few missiles. This also indicates that you are lacking in using the controls and the grouping features, typically this leads to less coordinative styles between unit types and more unicoloured armies like your heavy preference in Halberdiers.

My advice is to check out the relevant available guides on the org and become better in using the interface and controls - this in turn will enable you to try playstyles that require a higher degree of coordination of unit types.

Originally posted by Asai Nagamasa
The Byzantines are an interesting faction with which to take on the Horde as they have no decent spears available. It would be interesting to know which units/tactics/formations people use?

Exactly the same tactics with morale upgraded vanilla spears and a few mercenary spears if available like Saracens, Russians, Armored Spears, FeudalSs, ChivCs - whatever avialable. Works every time. Just dont bother with Promoia Cavalry, Byz Cavalry and Kats, other than for the general's unit, as they are vastly more expensive and less able than Mongol Cav. Alans, Byz lancers and even vanilla horse archers on the other hand and steppe cav. (light) are what you are after. Varangians as elites and flankers; they are far too good units and can do anything required really, although a little expensive but they are undoubtedlt worth it. The odd Billman if available.

In my opinion eastern factions shouldn't be allowed arbs and crossbows - but should be having vastly more capable "composite" bow units instead that could be an antidote to bolts in terms of lethality and armor penetration. Bows are far too weak in MTW especially as the eras go by and more armor comes into play. IIRC the Horde gets ap arrows in the MedMod; this makes them quite more dangerous than vanilla.

[Vantek]

OK, I think it's starting to dawn on me :) Thanks for being so patient as to explain it to a tinhead like me :) A very clever strategy you've got there!

Will any horses ever actually reach the Arbalesters? Do they typically rout instantly? Can the elites really reach the cavalry that has come through in time? Do you just switch Arbalesters on Fire on Will at the exact moment that the 1-2 units of MHC step beyond the gapped wall of spears?

[gollum]

Originally posted by Vantek
OK, I think it's starting to dawn on me :) Thanks for being so patient as to explain it to a tinhead like me :) A very clever strategy you've got there!

It isn't really clever, just safe and economical. It raises considerably your chances of winning these very long drawn intial battles with the Horde because it lets the bolts do the killing, so your foot units are enough even when heavily outnumbered.

Obviously you will need reinforcements: arbs, light cavalry, spears and flankers. Since arbs and spears are by far the highest proportion you can adjust the reinforcements in such a way that waves or arbs are followed by smaller waves of spears with the occasional flanker or light cavalry interspersed. Get the elites in from the beginning as often the first waves may be quite severe (say almost 16 units of MHC!) - so they might be necessary off the bat.

Will any horses ever actually reach the Arbalesters? Do they typically rout instantly? Can the elites really reach the cavalry that has come through in time?

Occasionaly, yes someone will reach them, although your mass volleys should be delivered just before this happens that will drive them off with very high casualties.

There are many ways to deal with the eventuality.

Set the arbs in hold formation: this allows them to shoot even if parially engaged. This means that if a MHC has partially engaged an arb, the rest of the unit's facing will deliver a "in your face" volley in the MHC. Usually this is enough.

At the same time, set the arbs in hold position; this takes attack points and turns them in defense points, which basically means taht teh arb can take quite some time of grinding engagement before it routs that allow you to either bring a flanker or elite back up or to rotate an adjacent arb and deliver a volley in their naked rear. WHichever of these will do the job.

In time as your coordination and familiarity with such tactics increases you'll cover any "suspect" MHC well before he manages to do any harm. Just give it some time and effort if willing and able.



PS One of the most dangerous times that the Horde can catch you "off guard" is when you are retreating units and bringing in reinforcements to replenish your ranks. If the Horde happens to attack with a severe wave of MHC while your reinforcements haven't come in yet and your substituted units are on their way out, youmay be caught outnumbered and routed off the field. This may be severe enough to lose you the battle, because too many units may be wasted in the rout.

In order to avoid such an unpleasant event, always deploy no more than half the distance to the enemy edge, always deploy with having in mind the route your reinforcements will have to take to reach your main army andmake sure this is safe, and always choose to exchange units when the Horde has been just routed or when it is one of these phases that it is simply shooting you with MHA and it does not have too many MHCs that can sweep you out.

This is another reason why i dislike halbs against the Horde and why i also dislike Pavise Arbs - at least in great numbers.

PPS You should set the arbs in hold form/hold pos from the start and keep them this way not just when they are engaged by enemy troops.

[bondovic]

Att: Vantek.

I don't know what else to tell you, man. I think there's a smaller gap between the two approaches when you compare them in an uphill battle situation (I'll go out on a limb and say: considerably smaller gap, so there's no question anymore). However, I do belive that I have a pretty good assesment of the ratios involved and so am not underestimating the importance of holding the high ground. That being said, I can only speak from my own experience, of course. And that tells me that there's no problem whatsoever with flanking in hilly battles. It might not have the same pzazz to it, but it sure gets the job done with very satisfying ratios still.

I almost always welcome the GH in Khazar. Flat ground it is. I have done it in Georgia on the odd occassion, but with the same approach. I tend to get something like 10:1 ratios in hillies and 7:2 on flat (wild estimates, but fairly educated). Turk style, that is.

[William the Silent]

First thing I always do with arbs is kill the enemy general. That's weakens the whole attack. I've actually been succesful with that with art too.
And if you end up killing the Khan in battle of the Hordes first appearance you'll have some great units to recruit for cheap.

[Vantek]

Fair enough bondovic. Flanking when holding high ground really doesn't fit well into my intuition of the game, but I suppose I must be underestimating it. Thanks for the discussion!

gollum, how do you control the Arbalesters? IIRC you use Fire on Will button? Do you just switch Arbalesters on Fire on Will at the exact moment that the 1-2 units of MHC step beyond the line of spears?

[gollum]

Yes, and it really works when the arbs have a clear target whether the MHC has passed the spears or is approaching the spears (its good to give them one good volley then too). In cases however that you want some arbalater(s) to target a particularly vulnerable MHC (preferably stationary) its best to toggle fire at will off and then give them the order to target the one you want. You can stop them shooting at it by simply pressing backspace that is the shortcut for cancelling orders (otherwise they'll foloow it in order to shoot it).

This is standard missile tactics in mp in order to get a really good shot at enemy HC units; if in addition their numbers have been whitled down and they have been fatigued they are most likely to turn tail and run on the spot. You can hit pretty high instant casualties on the enemy this way.

The same missile tactics work for arquebusiers too, however they dont have the range of the arbs and so its best to use them tigether with arbs and not alone. They can be just behind the first line of arbs and they add really some extra punch in the volleys. If lucky you can have some of them against the Horde if you pay attention in the mercenary pools; this is because all gunpoweder units are designated high but they are not linked directly to the gunpoweder event; the buildings that produce them are. So sometimes you can find them as mercenaries well before the gunpoweder event.

[Vantek]

You can stop them shooting at it by simply pressing backspace that is the shortcut for cancelling orders (otherwise they'll foloow it in order to shoot it).

I think on hold position they will actually just stop shooting at a target you gave them if it exits their line of sight. If you tell them to shoot at a target that is out of their LOS, they will follow it and keep following it, but if there is a unit well in their LOS and you tell them to shoot it when they're on hold position, if that target now exits their LOS, they will just stop firing at it instead of pursuing it. Though actually I remember having situations where this didn't work as expected >_< So maybe it's too risky to rely on it.

In any case, thanks for all the input! You've given me some very nice ideas to try out.

[Trapped in Samsara]

Hi

Happy to see that this party is still rocking. As someone said earlier, jousts like this have been few and far between 'round here for quite a while.

We're all in a position to learn something from these exchanges, even if it is only that our personal ideas/strategies are tested in the Coliseum of open debate.

Gollum wrote, "One of the most dangerous times that the Horde can catch you "off guard" is when you are retreating units and bringing in reinforcements to replenish your ranks."

A tip (apologies if you find this blindingly obvious): with few exceptions you should actively prevent your troops from killing off enemy units in their entirety. Once they're down to 20% to 25% or so of their initial complement let them escape. This means that they will rout/retreat back to their starting edge before their replacement can appear. You can use the time to rest/reform/replace.

Also, someone asked about how to go about attacking the Horde. Must admit, I don't think I've ever done this unless I felt I had a significantly superior force - more so than when taking on any other faction - because of the Mongols' combination of firepower, mobility and shock effect.

On those occaisions where I have attacked a big-ish Mongol force, say 3 to 4 stacks, if I don't have enough decent melee cav (e.g., masses of FKs and MS which would almost be an alternative Horde in effect) to simply smash the MHC and MW units and 'round up' the MHAs, I have always been missile cav heavy, e.g., 1/3 SHC or equivalent. (Seem to remember recruiting loads of 2 valour Turcoman Horse after a successful crusade to Antioch(?) in anticipation of a big face-off with the Khan one campaign.) But I would still field 4 or 5 decent spear companies with which to 'hold the line' to shelter my missile infantry and function as a refuge for my cav who would 'raid' the Mongols and NOT get involved in isolated, stand up melee or missile fights.

I formed my spears (4/5 ranks deep) into a line then group them and order them into wedge. I then have 3/4 arbs/xbows grouped and 'offset' in wedges. The basic idea is that the arbs/xbows (and missile cav) lure the Mongols onto the spears then form wedge and fall back through the gaps with the spear wall reforming behind them. Your arbs/xbows then have to pick their targets carefully.

Masses of micromanagement involved, of course, and (I'm afraid I have to confess) a lot of use of the pause key a times. You're then looking to attrition the Mongols till they leave the field. Be prepared to fall back, replace, re-engage. Or even lose pretty much your entire initial deployment, keeping your general safe, whilst your reinforcements build a defensive line close to your edge of the map prior to making another attrition run. If you're not the patient sort this strategy simply will not work.

Killing off their general early on is often essential to stand any chance of winning in these circumstances. And I wouldn't even think about employing this tactic unless I had a couple of valour advantage, say via a much higher star general.

Thinking about it, halbs might do a good job here, but I've always considered them a very defensive troop because of their relative slowness. Perhaps I need to revisit this...

Regards
Victor

[caravel]

A tip (apologies if you find this blindingly obvious): with few exceptions you should actively prevent your troops from killing off enemy units in their entirety. Once they're down to 20% to 25% or so of their initial complement let them escape. This means that they will rout/retreat back to their starting edge before their replacement can appear. You can use the time to rest/reform/replace.

That is one of my favoured tactics. It's also why you should leave the mongol warriors or any siege equipment alone if it's not in range/in small enough units. A mass rout/kill of mongol units can herald the arrival of several MHC all at once. If this is at a time when your replacement spears are still coming on, you're in trouble.

[HopAlongBunny]

Forgot about the siege equipment :)

When the Mongols deploy 4 catapults its kind of a blessing and a curse.

4 less "real" units to worry about, but the mongols will not leave until they cycle through their entire roster...after all they still hold the field.

Wonderful when you want to kill as many as you can; a pain when you want the battle over quickly.
OTOH eliminating the siege equipment does not guarantee they will leave any sooner, just that they might.

[Prince Cobra]

Normal level, Early Byz Campaign. This time I am not an aggressive person. How do you usually avoid Golden Horde in MTW/VI? As the Byzantines, I hold Georgia and Armenia but Khazar is in posession in the huuge Novgorod Empire that reaches Bavaria. In fact the Russians are the only people that now bother me. How perfect, it would have been if any divine wind comes and takes the Russians away?

So I control the Balkan peninsula, Naples, Sardinia, Corsica, the Minor Asia + Edessa and Antioch, Iberia (without Leon (rebels), Portugal (Spanish), Aragon and Navarra (also rebel)) and Marocco.

Novgorod rules everything from Khazar to Bavaria. The common border is the lightly defended Georgia/Khazar only. At least for now.

Hungary (my friendly dynasty died ), half of Germany and France are rebels (a result of the crumbling Spanish Empire).

Northern Africa and Asia is patched with the remnants of the Almos, Spains, the Eggys and the Turks (stranded in Syria and the only faction I am at war with now).

With 31 000 florins (in 1185 they were 59 000, about 1200 they were near 20 000), 16 000 income (trade&normal taxes) and 11 000 expenditure, three provinces specialised into Varangian guards (Constantinople, Nicaea and Greece), 3 and 4 star assassins, full control on the Mediterranean. I can make Proniai and the Byz Lancers in Nicaea, though I still rely on my royal line for the Kataphraktoi. I am also very pious person and prefer to build churches (and monasteries and even reliquery) than armourers. :prays:

Now, how can I easily avoid the Horde and concentrate on more important issues?

It's 1210.

P.S. I hesitate whether I should abandon Armenia or not... and if yes, when to do that. Poor people, they love me! (200 loyalty)

[PershsNhpios]

I can't advise you Stephen Asen, but please let me know how the Horde invades!

I would have thought Armenia and Georgia to have been two of the most easily defensible provinces in Asia to be defended from the Horde.

Someone in this thread did mention attacking the Horde, but more importantly they also mentioned a more offensive strategy even in defense.

This was something along the lines of cornering and smashing the Horde army, but they did not elaborate further.

Is this really a possible strategy given the number of their reinforcements?


EDIT: After my English campaign, I will immediately start as the Teutonics or Polish in High - just for the sake of experience in this area! (I am not valiant enough to try Volga Bulgaria [or the Bulga Vulgars, as Gollum calls them!])

[caravel]

Normal level, Early Byz Campaign. This time I am not an aggressive person. How do you usually avoid Golden Horde in MTW/VI? As the Byzantines, I hold Georgia and Armenia but Khazar is in posession in the huuge Novgorod Empire that reaches Bavaria. In fact the Russians are the only people that now bother me. How perfect, it would have been if any divine wind comes and takes the Russians away?

That sounds ideal. The Novgorod will act as a buffer zone and take the brunt of the invasion. Georgia is a better province, defensively than Khazaar IMHO, so you have a good chance of holding out.

So I control the Balkan peninsula, Naples, Sardinia, Corsica, the Minor Asia + Edessa and Antioch, Iberia (without Leon (rebels), Portugal (Spanish), Aragon and Navarra (also rebel)) and Marocco.

Novgorod rules everything from Khazar to Bavaria. The common border is the lightly defended Georgia/Khazar only. At least for now.

If you were staying and defending, the Georgia/Khazar border would have to be your main Horde frontier. You will need a massive force there to hold off wave after wave of GH.

Hungary (my friendly dynasty died ), half of Germany and France are rebels (a result of the crumbling Spanish Empire).

Northern Africa and Asia is patched with the remnants of the Almos, Spains, the Eggys and the Turks (stranded in Syria and the only faction I am at war with now).

As to avoiding... you have a few options, You can abandon most of Asia minor (except Constantinople, Nicaea and maybe Anatolia) and leave it to the Turks/rebels/Novgorod and work your way further west into the Balkans, Italy and eastern europe at the same time.

With 31 000 florins (in 1185 they were 59 000, about 1200 they were near 20 000), 16 000 income (trade&normal taxes) and 11 000 expenditure, three provinces specialised into Varangian guards (Constantinople, Nicaea and Greece), 3 and 4 star assassins, full control on the Mediterranean. I can make Proniai and the Byz Lancers in Nicaea, though I still rely on my royal line for the Kataphraktoi. I am also very pious person and prefer to build churches (and monasteries and even reliquery) than armourers. :prays:

It seems to me that they you have florins and troops to take the horde on - you just need to get moving training units. The morale bonuses from the churches etc, should help you turn out some upgraded vanilla spearmen to take on those MHC. Your trebizond archers, arbalesters and Varangian Guard* will also be invaluable. Just don't take too many Byzantine Infantry, as they're not as useful vs the GH units.

*You will need these in number because your vanilla spears will not be able to hold enemy cavalry for long. Morale, valour and armour upgrades for the vanilla spears are a must.

P.S. I hesitate whether I should abandon Armenia or not... and if yes, when to do that. Poor people, they love me! (200 loyalty)

Armenia is one of the Horde invasion targets. The Horde can appear in only a few provinces - IIRC those are: Volga Bulgaria, Khazar, Georgia and Armenia. Personally I would fortify Armenia and fight it out with the aim of defeating the invasion force in the first turn, cutting off their retreat and ransoming them back/executing them. Otherwise if you go under siege or abandon you've effectively lost the whole region anyway. For this to work you also have to successfully defend Georgia. I've done this countless times playing as the Egyptians, Turks, Byzantines and once as the English so it is very doable. You just have to be prepared to fight some very lengthy battles.

[gollum]

Few times, the Horde does appear in Armenia too. Prepare for this eventuality, not in the fullest but keep in mind that it might happen. And whatever you do dont get khazar and have a large army in it (or in Georgia). Keep your defensive stacks in Trebizond and once the Horde lands move them in Georgia. Otherwise the large number of your troops will make the Horde landing quite bigger.

Good luck Stephen Asen

[caravel]

And whatever you do dont get khazar and have a large army in it (or in Georgia). Keep your defensive stacks in Trebizond and once the Horde lands move them in Georgia. Otherwise the large number of your troops will make the Horde landing quite bigger.

Wise words, I actually keep my stacks in Georgia and Armenia. It's rare that the horde actually land in Georgia in my experience. They usually land in Khazar and Volga Bulgaria, or you have that more challenging scenario where they land in Khazar and Armenia. Whatever happens, in my experience, they always land the main force in Khazar, so that's the province to avoid. Keeping your troops in Trebizond and landing them in Georgia once they Horde land, doesn't hurt of course and is wise if you don't want to face a huge invasion.

Unless of course you have a few hundred thousand turks at your disposal and a lot of time on your hands...

[gollum]

Originally posted by Asai Nagamasa
Unless of course you have a few hundred thousand turks at your disposal and a lot of time on your hands...

Yes i did it once with the Turks and once with the Byz. I think the first battle in Khazar took about 6 hours in both cases and i've lost in one and won in the other. In any case, in both campaigns the Mongols were soon on the defensive and in a while longer extinguished and the russian steppe was mine. Then i proceeded happily to do what the Mongols would have done had they beaten me, ie drive my armies all the way to Paris

[Prince Cobra]

Thanks for the advices. Greece, Constantinople, occasionally Nicaea and soon Rum work for the Varangian guards. Bulgaria is producing arbalests, Trebizond: Trebizond archers. It's 1215. Nagamasa-sama said something about spearmen. What is the perfect ratio between the Varangians and Spearmen? (perhaps I should devout Constantinople to their making since they get +1 valour (Master Spearmaker) +1 armour (soon +2) +1 morale (Church) there).

Second, I am training Pronoiai in Nicaea. Now they get +1 valour +1 armour, I hope in ten years I will start producing them with +2 valour (Master Horse Breeder). They also should get +1 morale for church, +1 for monastery +2 for reliquery (I hope it stacks). I think my excellent 7-8 star commanders will get them enough strength to make them a fast and effective Horde killing machines. Personally, I like them more than the Kataphraktoi.

And the last but not the least. Whilst fighting large stacks (I had some nice meetings with the Jinettes while conquering Spain), I have constant problems with my archers running out of ammos.

I think my anti-horde army should be something like that. 15-20 Varangian guards, about 15 Pronoiars, 8-10 Kataphraktoi, 15 arbalests, 3 crossbows (made them by mistake), 10 Trebizond archers (some of them with +1 armour), about 10 spears, 1-2 Naptha (1v; with the generals bonus it raises up to 5v) perhaps?

I have also two Light Italian infantry as mercenaries + 1 Kwarazmian cavalry.Perhaps these can help? Antiochia is deliberately left with a fort so that I can hire mercenaries. Any precious troops against the Horde?

On the battlefield, I plan things like that: 4 Varangians, 3 Kataphraktoi, 3 Pronoiars, 2 arbalests, 2 Trabizond archers, 2 Spears. I am not a fan of low morale javelins, though.

Any advices?

On a more exotic point of view, I also smashed the rebels in a bridge battle for Aragon (lost some Varangians, though) and bribed the garrison. The province is now intact with +2 armours and castle (and now I'm building a metalsmith). I view it as another source of spearmen, though I'll be able to improve them with only +1 morale (these people should be taught to some Orthodox rituals). Perhaps.

About the fortifications: basically, I left Armenia and Georgia quite undeveloped. I've only upgraded them with keeps and they have quite low variety of units. No churches, nothing. I do not plan to change that but is it a good idea to upgrade them to castles?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

P.S. Ahhh, yes. The Hungarians made a glorious return. We will see if they will be willing to become my friends again.

[caravel]

Thanks for the advices. Greece, Constantinople, occasionally Nicaea and soon Rum work for the Varangian guards. Bulgaria is producing arbalests, Trebizond: Trebizond archers. It's 1215. Nagamasa-sama said something about spearmen. What is the perfect ratio between the Varangians and Spearmen? (perhaps I should devout Constantinople to their making since they get +1 valour (Master Spearmaker) +1 armour (soon +2) +1 morale (Church) there).

I would have a unit of Varangians for every three units of spears.

Second, I am training Pronoiai in Nicaea. Now they get +1 valour +1 armour, I hope in ten years I will start producing them with +2 valour (Master Horse Breeder). They also should get +1 morale for church, +1 for monastery +2 for reliquery (I hope it stacks). I think my excellent 7-8 star commanders will get them enough strength to make them a fast and effective Horde killing machines. Personally, I like them more than the Kataphraktoi.

I would advise against taking on the horde with a mainly cavalry army. Pronoia cav are expensive and you will take heavy losses in cav vs cav battles against the horde. They're certainly better than Kataphraktoi, but the best cavalry to suit are the Byzantine Lancers, in smaller numbers for chasing routers. Personally I like to use a combination of Byzantine Lancers and the Byzantine Cavalry as the latter can unleash their arrows and then chase routers before you withdraw them.

[Prince Cobra]

I hope I am not obsessing the thead with my stupid comments. Thanks.

I would advise against taking on the horde with a mainly cavalry army. Pronoia cav are expensive and you will take heavy losses in cav vs cav battles against the horde. They're certainly better than Kataphraktoi, but the best cavalry to suit are the Byzantine Lancers, in smaller numbers for chasing routers. Personally I like to use a combination of Byzantine Lancers and the Byzantine Cavalry as the latter can unleash their arrows and then chase routers before you withdraw them.

If you are concerned about money, my treasure continues to grow. I can't really get on with the Byz cavalry. These are too slow for horse archers and not that devastating as the normal cavalry. I remember when fighting the Spanish (their army was a crap, though): I did not make any attempt to pursue them. I just kill them and leave them flee out of the battlefield. My purpose is to push the Horde back, not really to kill all of their armies. I am bad at pursuing the enemy since I prefer not to leave my hill.

I am also quite rusty, so I doubt I will afford the luxury to keep a unit for the sole purpose of chasing routers. But I will change my plans for big cavalry force.

I would have a unit of Varangians for every three units of spears.

Perhaps I underestimate the spears but their relatively low morale (esp. the morale) and humble fighting abilities are scaring me. Surprising as it may be, I have 3 provinces specialised in Varangians and only 1-2 that can make valoured (Constantinople) or high morale (Nicaea; in the others I have only church and monastery) spears. 1:1 (1:2 at best) ratio can work fine in my case. And perhaps some mercenaries to improve the quality at least in the first row of defenders.

What about the missiles? Is 1/4 of the stack a good ratio?

And the cavalry about 1/5 of the stack (3-4 units; Pronoiai and Kataphraktoi;)?

[gollum]

Originally posted by Stephen Asen
These are too slow for horse archers and not that devastating as the normal cavalry.

Byzantine cavalry are support units. You can keep them beside your melee line pre and during engagement as well as the missile line. Think of them as mounted heavy infantry that are fast and have bows and then you'll see their uses. They are not to be used for charges and pursuit too much as their considerable armor wears them out.

Instead they should guard flanks, and give a hand here and there; release a volley when your arbs are reloading, participate in the flanking of an isolated enemy unit; deal with an enemy heavy infantry or cavalry that made it to your missiles; plug the gap in the melee line to hold it or tip the enemy to rout if they seem to waver; flank the enemy line occasionally (if you notice that while you are guarding your flank with BC that the enemy flank is unguarded and all his units are far off or engaged); support other cavalry that have a strong charge and better speed/stamina. Similar in use are the Mameluk Horse Archers and the Faris; none of these units is a horse archer unit and their names are misleading; they are medium multitask cavalry that have a "libero" (for those that like football) role on the battle field.

They also make good general units.

Perhaps I underestimate the spears but their relatively low morale (esp. the morale) and humble fighting abilities are scaring me.

Any spear that has reached morale 2 is reliable if properly placed and supported. You will need some of them to pin the enemy. Of course an all Varangian army is better and easier if you can manage it financially, however it will cost you an arm and a leg. Asai's ratio sounds good to me.

I would bring a bit less than half a stack arbs and keep them in that proportion; (6-7).

[PershsNhpios]

May I request a description of a typical Horde battle on Hard (XL or vanilla, any really!)?

So that I may understand what units are employed by the Horde for what purpose, what units in the players army take which roles, and why they have those roles for certain phases of the fight.
A description of the beginning, pitch, and endgame would be marvellous - please!

I would like to know how swordsmen cope in a fight with these MHC (Providing they don't receive a charge), and the specific reasons why some units are best and others only create weaknesses.

(I ask for Hard because the AI is considerably more capable than on Normal)

[gollum]

You can save your game before you engage the Horde and have a go at it to see what its like. As i said before no description will substitute the real thing. Most battles against the Horde are coloured from the fact that you are fighting generally outnumbered. Hence you want to be taking a very defensive stance while you're shooting at the Horde and trying to cull wave after wave of MHC and MHAs and MWs.

As it had been stated multiple times already in this thread heavy sword infantry won't work againt a mobile and heavy cavalry heavy army as the Horde. You need some armor piercing units like Billmen to kill the heavy cav. some spears to pin the heavy cav and lots of missiles to shoot the hc and the MHAs. You also need some light cavalry to chase off MWs so taht you economise in bolts on them in those instances that are alone in the field or their army is routing.

Just give it a try and then come and read this thread again.

[Mithrandir]

It's a shame....

it's a shame that some people forget that the Org is a civil place for friendly discussion. Please leave your horses, weapons and negative comments at the door and enjoy a glass of Camelmilk in the Main Hall.

Also, it's a shame almost no one mentions camels... what is this thread coming to... To balance things a bit...

[PershsNhpios]

This thread now causes a -3 penalty to the morale of horses.

[gollum]

...horses however (unlike camels) give +6 morale to us...