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Thread: Europe

  1. #961
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    A UK, a EU, a NATO, a UN and a Commonwealth do not mutually exclude each other.

    Here's a thought: wouldn't it impove Britain's standing in the EU if it is also the gateway to the 2 billion Commonwealth? Does Britain's relevance to the other Commonwealth countries not drastically increase if Britain is the key to unlock the door to the world's largest internal market?
    Is the worth of Britian for America and for Europe not immeasurably increased because it serves as a springboard to the other?


    Imagination, Furunculus! Imagination and grand ideas are what have put the 'Great' into Britain! Be the bloody centre of the world, not an introvert island afraid of losing sovereignity.

    Why do you think even post-Empire the City could still trump NY, Tokyo and Hong Kong as the world's financial hub?

    It is not about three French farmers receiving a handout, or two Polish plumbers. This is about creating a world, about keeping Britain at the centre of it, post Empire. Britain needs to do what it is good at, instead of frustrating it with undue provincialism.

    Norway has oil, Australia has limitless natural resources. Britons, by contrast, need to work for their money. Need to find a way of making it flow to their island. What could be better than to tap British historical legacy and fortunate global position and become the world's services hub. Britain is sitting on a pot of gold, yet the silly Tories are mewling they want to close off Britain and let it rot away because of some ill-understood notions about sovereignity.
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  2. #962
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Furunculus, could you do a Commonwealth thread? (aka, similar to what this has become)

    Would be interested in talking about that.
    it would be interesting, as an successor to the Britain is not an island thread, but i am not yet focused upon the topic yet, perhaps you?

    Louis - I have yet to see any sign that that EUrope is willing to let 2 billion people have free and unfettered access to its markets.

    much easier to send them a few tractors, and a million Aid quango employees to make sure the EU baksheesh reaches the right swiss bank accounts.
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  3. #963
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    They were also incorrect and false as evidenced by the fact's on the ground.
    Some were, some were correct, and some (such as the Iraq War) we don't know yet either way. A known unknown, so to speak.

  4. #964
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    it would be interesting, as an successor to the Britain is not an island thread, but i am not yet focused upon the topic yet, perhaps you?

    Louis - I have yet to see any sign that that EUrope is willing to let 2 billion people have free and unfettered access to its markets.

    much easier to send them a few tractors, and a million Aid quango employees to make sure the EU baksheesh reaches the right swiss bank accounts.
    The Commonwealth is even more a talkshop than the EU how long did it take to get Zimbabwe thrown out that time took ages if I remember correctly. Thankfully we threw off that useless piece of imperialist comfort blanket ages ago.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    too true, but i don't want the Commonwealth to be a political union.

    however, we are destroying the opportunity of treating it as an informal economic union my putting ourselves on the wrong side of the EU's subsidy/tariff barrier, which by definition locks us out of better opportunities to boost free-trade with english speaking nations with whom we already have a long history and excellent links.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 11-26-2009 at 22:37.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    and we willingly signed up to this?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...of-London.html
    Nicolas Sarkozy hails EU appointment to 'clamp down on City of London'
    French President Nicolas Sarkozy has hailed the appointment of EU’s new finance chief as a chance to clamp down on City of London excesses, in a direct rebuke to the British government’s handling of the economic crisis.


    By Andrew Hough
    Published: 8:00AM GMT 02 Dec 2009

    In a speech in the south of France, Mr Sarkozy said the appointment of Michel Barnier was a victory for European economic modelling.

    Mr Sarkozy blamed the “free-wheeling Anglo-Saxon” model, favoured by Britain and the United States, for the global economic downturn while praising European thinking which “had nothing to do with excesses of financial capitalism”.

    But Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, delivered a blunt warning to Mr Barnier against interfering with regulations governing the City of London, saying any foreign meddling by the EU would breed “confusion”.

    In his speech, Mr Sarkozy failed to hide his satisfaction at the chance to try and control British banks and financial services through his former agriculture minister.

    “Do you know what it means for me to see for the first time in 50 years a French European commissioner in charge of the internal market, including financial services, including the City [of London]?” Mr Sarkozy said in La-Seyne-Sur-Mer.

    “I want the world to see the victory of the European model, which has nothing to do with the excesses of financial capitalism.”


    Mr Barnier's role as Europe’s new internal markets commissioner gives him power over financial regulatory reform, with France seen as favouring a tough stance on issues like bonuses and curbs on hedge funds.

    Mr Barnier, whose new role allows him to oversee a radical revamp of financial regulations to prevent any new economic crisis, has stressed he knows the importance of the City of London for growth in Britain and Europe.

    But some British financial service leaders and Downing Street fear Mr Barnier will push for stricter regulation at the expense of the City.

    On the eve of a meeting of EU finance ministers in Brussels, to discuss financial sector reform, Mr Darling said it would be "self-defeating" to drive out business to other, less tightly regulated, jurisdictions.

    Writing in The Times, Mr Darling said it was “undeniably in Europe’s interest that Britain’s financial hubs, the City of London and Edinburgh, flourish”.

    “We must resist measures, however superficially alluring, that could undermine the effective functioning of our cherished single market,” he wrote.

    “National supervisors, such as the FSA, must remain responsible for supervising individual companies.”

    He added: “Making companies directly accountable to more than one authority is a recipe for confusion.

    Mr Darling said the city was building on its strengths, he argued it was “too simplistic to argue that financial centres in Europe are just competing among themselves”.

    “The reality is the real competition to Europe’s financial centres comes from outside our borders. And that London, whether others like it or not, is New York’s only rival as a truly global financial centre,” Mr Darling said.

    “No other centre in Europe offers the same range of services: banking, insurance, fund management, law and accountancy.

    “It is in all of Europe’s interests that they prosper alongside their close European partners.”

    In an interview on French television, Lord Turner, the chairman of the Financial Services Authority, played down the appointment as he tried to defuse any row with France.

    "I'm sure Mr Barnier will be attempting to work out what is effective regulation for the good of the whole of Europe,” he said.
    this should be worrying for lefties that like all those expensive social policies, given how much revenue the city generates for the exchequer!
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  7. #967
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Some thoughts:

    1) Sarkozy was elected on his program of more 'Anglostyle' liberalism. He is a bit short of memory.

    2) Brown wanted Blair. When that failed, he wanted the post of 'Foreign Minister'. Meanwhile, British eurocrats were pulling their hair out in despair, begging Westminster to claim the post internal markets commissioner instead. London was not paying attention.

    3) Good. Go Barnier. The crisis has made me reconsider many of my ideas. Unbridled non-regulation of the financial markets is a recipe for disaster. It has brought very little real wealth, made some people very rich, and undermined the financial stability of many.
    Markets serve the people, not the other way round.

    4) Thank God there is a EU, so we have the critical weight to decide for ourselves whether we want unbridled plunder neoliberalism, instead of being at the mercy of others. (See 'Argentina', 'Russia 1995', etc)
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 12-02-2009 at 12:23.
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  8. #968
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    3) Good. Go Barnier. The crisis has made me reconsider many of my ideas. Unbridled non-regulation of the financial markets is a recipe for disaster. It has brought very little real wealth, made some people very rich, and undermined the financial stability of many.
    Markets serve the people, not the other way round.
    It is a shame many people forget this, or choose to ignore it.
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  9. #969
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Some thoughts:

    1) Sarkozy was elected on his program of more 'Anglostyle' liberalism. He is a bit short of memory.

    2) Brown wanted Blair. When that failed, he wanted the post of 'Foreign Minister'. Meanwhile, British eurocrats were pulling their hair out in despair, begging Westminster to claim the post internal markets commissioner instead. London was not paying attention.

    3) Good. Go Barnier. The crisis has made me reconsider many of my ideas. Unbridled non-regulation of the financial markets is a recipe for disaster. It has brought very little real wealth, made some people very rich, and undermined the financial stability of many.
    Markets serve the people, not the other way round.

    4) Thank God there is a EU, so we have the critical weight to decide for ourselves whether we want unbridled plunder neoliberalism, instead of being at the mercy of others. (See 'Argentina', 'Russia 1995', etc)
    1. no doubt, but by whose standards? it's all relative.

    2. given that the EC economic section has been stuffed with brits for thirty years, we'll see how much real impact this guy has, but i agree it may be yet another poor labour decision.

    3. the city has brought in a staggering ammount of tax revenue for the exchequer to blow in NHS improvement and child tax credits, along with every other half-cocked example of social engineering.

    4. yes, the EU does have the ability to wall itself from global competition, and i can't see a faster way of creating economic stagnation which will accelerate europes decline in the coming century.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    "Markets serve the people, not the other way round."
    It is a shame many people forget this, or choose to ignore it.
    if france gets her way, then the market will be serving someone elses 'people', and your social programs will go wanting.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 12-02-2009 at 13:48.
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  10. #970
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    yes, the EU does have the ability to wall itself from global competition, and i can't see a faster way of creating economic stagnation which will accelerate europes decline in the coming century.
    We'll beat global capitalism into submission. It will crumble before our very eyes when a despairing world compares its misery to the superior European model.


    Or not, and shortsightedness and a global rat race will revert us all back to 19th century Dickensian unbridled capitalism.
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  11. #971
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    that's right, self delusion is the best way to cope with inevitable decline.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  12. #972
    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    1
    3. the city has brought in a staggering ammount of tax revenue for the exchequer to blow in NHS improvement and child tax credits, along with every other half-cocked example of social engineering.
    .
    I wonder how you came to the opinion that a healthy population is a "half cocked example of social engineering" (Although I agree that some parts of the NHS should be cut, e.g. pre and post-natal care)

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    4. yes, the EU does have the ability to wall itself from global competition, and i can't see a faster way of creating economic stagnation which will accelerate europes decline in the coming century.
    So does America. And China. And Brazil. And Russia. And ______.

    if france gets her way, then the market will be serving someone elses 'people', and your social programs will go wanting.
    If Britain got her way, the Queen would still be Empress of India, Africa would be pink from Cairo to Cape Town and America would still be a colony

  13. #973
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    that's right, self delusion is the best way to cope with inevitable decline.
    Speaking a little too honesty from experience there?
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  14. #974
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus
    this should be worrying for lefties that like all those expensive social policies, given how much revenue the city generates for the exchequer!
    While the City pays taxes buys yachts, business seats at Chelsea and cocaine, the British people see very little of 'those expensive social policies paid for by the money the City generates'.


    More children live in poverty in Britain than in Turkey. Although it is slightly ahead of that other champion of Dickensian capitalism, the US, which has a child poverty level similar to Mexico.

    http://www.unicef-irc.org/publicatio.../repcard1e.pdf

    In Scandinavia, social democracies, the least children grow up in destitution. Rhine model countries are next lowest.


    For pensioners, the same mechanism applies:
    The [UK's] government's child poverty targets lay in tatters today as new figures showed that 2.9 million children are officially living below the breadline in the UK – up 100,000 since 2005-06. The statistics, released by the Department for Work and Pensions, push the government even further from its target of halving child poverty by 2010. It is the second successive year that the government has failed to make progress.

    The figures also show that in 2006-07 there were 2.5m pensioners living in poverty, a rise of 300,000. This is the first increase in pensioner poverty since 1998.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...elfare.economy

    This is the brutality of unbridled neoliberalism. Destitution for many. Destroyed social mobility. And a bitter moral blaming of the poor themselves, and how they should be grateful for the 'social programs' of capitalism.
    We can be Denmark, yet neoliberalism wants us to be Colombia. To willfully return to the 19th century, plundering social and environmental resources until we are back to Dickensian conditions.

    I'll have none of it.
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  15. #975
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    I wonder how you came to the opinion that a healthy population is a "half cocked example of social engineering" (Although I agree that some parts of the NHS should be cut, e.g. pre and post-natal care)

    So does America. And China. And Brazil. And Russia. And ______.

    If Britain got her way, the Queen would still be Empress of India, Africa would be pink from Cairo to Cape Town and America would still be a colony
    poorly phrased, and the two should be disaggregated, though i agree with the need for reform.

    america china and brazil do not have the same demographic collapse faced by europe, our energies should be focused on making Doha work rather than maintaining cretinous institutions like CAP.

    so you're happy to wave the city goodbye.................... along with all the revenue it brings in for your anti-smoking officers and sexual equality consultants?
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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    IIRC, 1/3rd of all British children are growing up in poverty. One in three. That is a disgusting, utterly revoltingly high figure. And the Tories have gibbering on about the deficit and the need to cut public wages as if it was the public sector's fault for the recession.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    america china and brazil do not have the same demographic collapse faced by europe, our energies should be focused on making Doha work rather than maintaining cretinous institutions like CAP.
    Well, we could reduce our demographic poressures if we let more immigrants into Europe.

    Although that's not likely to happen any time soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    so you're happy to wave the city goodbye.................... along with all the revenue it brings in for your anti-smoking officers and sexual equality consultants?
    No. We have an advantage in banking and financial services over other nations. But we have drifted into a situation akin to a Banana Republic; we are far too dependant on sector of the economy for our growth, and the City's presence in the UK's economy should be restrained.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    IIRC, 1/3rd of all British children are growing up in poverty. One in three. That is a disgusting, utterly revoltingly high figure. And the Tories have gibbering on about the deficit and the need to cut public wages as if it was the public sector's fault for the recession.

    Well, we could reduce our demographic poressures if we let more immigrants into Europe.
    Although that's not likely to happen any time soon.

    No. We have an advantage in banking and financial services over other nations. But we have drifted into a situation akin to a Banana Republic; we are far too dependant on sector of the economy for our growth, and the City's presence in the UK's economy should be restrained.
    but we do, public spending vampiricily consumes nearly 45% of GDP, that is immoral!

    you would be replacing demographic pressure with socio/cultural pressure, riots much.

    you mean cut it down to size; so less money to the exchequer which can be spent on malnourished children? i'm not saying we are not overly dependant on financial services, but your solution seems a bit arse-about-face, surely we should build up other sectors rather than destroy financial services....................... at a time when every penny is needed to finance the deficit?
    Last edited by Furunculus; 12-02-2009 at 15:33.
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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    but we do, public spending vampiricily consumes nearly 45% of GDP, that is immoral!
    I know that it is not that high, and there is no way you can consider middle classes having to endure the woeful burden of a few extra taxes (Inheritance tax! Stamp Duty! TUITION FEES! The HORROR!) to be as immoral as one in three children in Great Britain growing up in poverty. I guess it's only Great for 66% of us, huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    you would be replacing demographic pressure with socio/cultural pressure, riots much.
    Possibly. But then again, the modern pension system, when subject to increasing lifespans is essentially the world's biggest Ponzi scheme; you need more and more suckers to buy into it and work to provide the money for pensions of old people, in the hope that they themselves will have a golden retirement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    you mean cut it down to size; so less money to the exchequer which can be spent on malnourished children? i'm not saying we are not overly dependant on financial services, but your solution seems a bit arse-about-face, surely we should build up other sectors rather than destroy financial services....................... at a time when every penny is needed to finance the deficit?
    Making financial services act responsibly does not equal cutting them down. Besides, the government seems to be quite skilled at destroying things we're good at which aren't banks (See their support of record companies over musicians, and their neverending crusade to rid Britain of good computer games developers), so maybe the banks have the government by the balls just as much as the unions did back in the 70's.
    Last edited by Subotan; 12-02-2009 at 16:09.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    I know that it is not that high, and there is no way you can consider middle classes having to endure the woeful burden of a few extra taxes (Inheritance tax! Stamp Duty! TUITION FEES! The HORROR!) to be as immoral as one in three children in Great Britain growing up in poverty. I guess it's only Great for 66% of us, huh?

    Possibly. But then again, the modern pension system, when subject to increasing lifespans is essentially the world's biggest Ponzi scheme; you need more and more suckers to buy into it and work to provide the money for pensions of old people, in the hope that they themselves will have a golden retirement.

    Making financial services act responsibly does not equal cutting them down. Besides, the government seems to be quite skilled at destroying things we're good at which aren't banks (See their support of record companies over musicians, and their neverending crusade to rid Britain of good computer games developers), so maybe the banks have the government by the balls just as much as the unions did back in the 70's.
    maybe if we taxed less, the productive part of the economy would be able to achieve more.

    again, we had the best private pension provision in the world................. until gordon decided to tax it.

    oh yes it does. if we become over-regulated (read: european) financial services will move elsewhere, much as it moved to britain after sarbanes-oxley over-regulated the american financial services industry.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 12-02-2009 at 18:26.
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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    maybe if we taxed less, the productive part of the economy would be able to achieve more
    Maybe. But then it follows that we should tax the banking services.

    And that depends on what the root causes for the failings of British industry are. If they're badly managed, or have no ideas, having taxes of 0% isn't going to help them.

    again, we had the best private pension provision in the world................. until gordon decided to tax it.
    [Citation Needed]
    Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought private pensions plans often invested in company stocks? Like, uh, the banks? meaning that even if they hadn't been taxed, they would have failed anyway.

    oh yes it does. if we become over-regulated (read: european) financial services will move elsewhere, much as it moved to britain after sarbanes-oxley ove-rregulated the american financial services industry.
    And look how fantastic that was for Britain. If companies feel a need to move because of their shady business practices, then we probably wouldn't want them anyway.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    Maybe. But then it follows that we should tax the banking services.

    And that depends on what the root causes for the failings of British industry are. If they're badly managed, or have no ideas, having taxes of 0% isn't going to help them.

    [Citation Needed]
    Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought private pensions plans often invested in company stocks? Like, uh, the banks? meaning that even if they hadn't been taxed, they would have failed anyway.

    And look how fantastic that was for Britain. If companies feel a need to move because of their shady business practices, then we probably wouldn't want them anyway.
    How?

    So your answer is that many parts of britains industry are becoming less productive, so lets kick the financial sector in the balls - equality of outcome and all that?

    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/taxraid
    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/pension...1&in_page_id=6
    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/ar...9&in_page_id=2
    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/op...author_id=2025
    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/ar...3&in_page_id=2
    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/pension...4&in_page_id=6
    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/op...in_author_id=1
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5099428.stm
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...0-billion.html
    that do you?

    shady practices? they operate within the most benign regulatory regime available. can we bring this back on topic now?
    Last edited by Furunculus; 12-02-2009 at 18:03.
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  22. #982
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    While the City pays taxes buys yachts, business seats at Chelsea and cocaine, the British people see very little of 'those expensive social policies paid for by the money the City generates'.


    More children live in poverty in Britain than in Turkey. Although it is slightly ahead of that other champion of Dickensian capitalism, the US, which has a child poverty level similar to Mexico.

    http://www.unicef-irc.org/publicatio.../repcard1e.pdf

    In Scandinavia, social democracies, the least children grow up in destitution. Rhine model countries are next lowest.


    For pensioners, the same mechanism applies:



    This is the brutality of unbridled neoliberalism. Destitution for many. Destroyed social mobility. And a bitter moral blaming of the poor themselves, and how they should be grateful for the 'social programs' of capitalism.
    We can be Denmark, yet neoliberalism wants us to be Colombia. To willfully return to the 19th century, plundering social and environmental resources until we are back to Dickensian conditions.

    I'll have none of it.


    Look at how the define "relative" poverty. Are you also saying that Canada is an impoverished nation? Poverty is one of the most misused words in the English language.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
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    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  23. #983
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    More children live in poverty in Britain than in Turkey. Although it is slightly ahead of that other champion of Dickensian capitalism, the US, which has a child poverty level similar to Mexico.
    We need to put them thar 6-year olds to work in the fields pickin' my veggies. It's not like they can afford an Xbox to waste time on anyway. Income up, relative poverty down, Kukri's belly full. Win, win, win.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  24. #984
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    How?

    So your answer is that many parts of britains industry are becoming less productive, so lets kick the financial sector in the balls - equality of outcome and all that?
    I would have to completely agree with you there it make's no sense to destroy the Financialised part of the economy or any economy.

    Instead more tidy regulation and maybe some incentive to invest in the like's of certain sectors like I dunno energy or some manufacturing.

    Whats needed is a bit of emphasis on the Primary and Secondary industries but not the old style of said sectors. Both those sector's in a modern economy are always going to be dwarfed by the tertiary sector which include's the financial sector but its always a good idea to keep some going.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Why do people think regulation is always a bad thing? I remember reading about the days when there were no regulation and missing body parts was an all time high. Regulation is important to make sure things go right and proper regulation would have stopped the problems in the economy.

    Also, defending the banks all the time just shows naviety. Looks at the recent (see: month or so ago) when the banks made a big profit. They spent 2 billion on bonuses. While Furunculus might think this was a brilliant idea, especially as we had to bail them out for doing such a poor job, there were far better uses of that 2 Billion such as putting it into loans to help the economy, or even invest it in capital, or even pay back the tax payer some of its money.

    On another note, could we stop talking about tax payers money in relation to GDP? It is a scam. You could go "Bankers Free Ride on the Government is 2% GDP" which translates to 10% of National Tax Income. It makes people think that it is only costing 2% when the ratio to taxes is far higher.
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  26. #986
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  27. #987
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    remind me again why Britain wants to be a part of this shabby ****up?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-spending.html
    Stitch-up? Now France excludes Britain from special talks on EU farm spending
    France has triggered a fresh row over EU power-broking by excluding Britain from key-Europe wide talks on the future of farm subsidies to be held in Paris this week.

    By Kim Willsher in Paris and Patrick Hennessy, Political Editor
    Published: 8:15AM GMT 06 Dec 2009

    The French government has summoned a meeting of what it called the "G22" - senior ministers from 22 European states - in an attempt to influence a rethink of the EU's Common Agricultural Policy (CAP).

    However, it has not invited Britain or other so-called "reform nations" - the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark and Malta - all of which have argued for a full overhaul of EU farm subsidies.

    Bruno Le Maire, the French agriculture minister, said the aim was to "produce a battle plan to defend a strong common agriculture policy, to support a renewed CAP."

    The snub follows hard on the heels of rows over the appointment of Michel Barnier, himself a former French agriculture minister, to the key role as the EU's commissioner for the internal market - which will give him potentially sweeping powers over the City of London.

    Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, has hailed the appointment as a triumph for France and claimed that the British are the "big losers" from the shake-up of EU commissioners' posts. Last week he cancelled a planned trip to London after an angry Gordon Brown refused to fit in a meeting with him.

    At the European Council in December 2005 Tony Blair negotiated away around 20 per cent – or £7.2 billion – of the rebate Britain would have received from the EU over the period 2007 to 2013. As part of the "deal", Britain received promises of cuts to the CAP subsidies paid to farmers. However, these have not so far been forthcoming, and now the French government in particular is digging in its heels as negotiations over the next six-year budget are about to begin.

    Mr Le Maire said: "It is time to produce a battle plan to defend a strong common agriculture policy, to support a renewed CAP. Work on this has to start as quickly as possible. The whole point of this meeting in Paris is to show our attachment to the CAP, our attachment to the tools of European regulation that are the only thing capable of guaranteeing the future of European agriculture, and to show that we are capable of imagination and daring."

    Senior British government sources last night expressed surprise and concern over the meeting of the "G22" - which is outside the formal umbrella of the EU and is being billed as a "reflection" on the future of the CAP.

    But the Conservatives said news of the talks was further proof that Gordon Brown's government was being outmanoeuvred within the EU by the French. William Hague, the shadow foreign secretary, said: "In return for giving up £7 billion or our rebate we were promised a fundamental review of the whole EU budget, including the CAP. We hope to see the European Commission's proposals for that reform officially published soon.
    "It's important that the Commission does not allow itself to be nobbled by countries with vested interests. The EU needs a modern budget for the 21st century, not one stuck with the spending priorities of the 1960s. Ministers need to wake up and start making the case for change to our partners.

    "While the French are pro-actively advancing their interests in Europe this Labour Government is yet again failing to exercise leadership."

    As he crowed over his successes last week, Mr Sarkozy only raised anxiety in London further by promising that the 57-year-old Mr Barnier would rein in the "free-wheeling Anglo-Saxon model" of banking - a remark which reverberated around a nervous City of London.

    Allies of Mr Barnier, who is renowned for his charm and courtesy, defend him from the suggestion that he is now the most dangerous man Britain faces in Europe - and he himself insisted in a French radio interview last week: "I'm not an ideologist. I'm very practical. Everybody needs to calm down."

    Yet whatever his true intentions towards Britain's financial industry, The Sunday Telegraph can reveal that Mr Barnier expects to continue to exercise great influence over the EU's farming policy as well as over Europe's financial institutions.

    As France's agriculture minister last year, Mr Barnier obtained the agreement of 24 out of 27 EU countries that the CAP's generous subsidies would remain in broadly their current form - against the wishes of Britain.

    "The CAP will continue after 2013," he told Le Figaro newspaper at the time, admitting Britain had opposed his plan. He added: "Right to the end I tried to get the British to swallow it, but in vain."

    On a previous occasion he said: "There are those in Europe who no longer want the CAP. Clearly that's an Anglo-Saxon vision but it isn't ours. Our allies are Poland, Italy, Spain, who are the big agricultural nations and who have the same problems as us."

    As agriculture minister he staunchly defended the massive subsidies to France from the EU budget - and last year urged Africa and Latin America to copy Europe and set up their own versions of the CAP.

    He now has a perfect opportunity to push his views on European farms policy through his friendship with the new EU agriculture commissioner, Dacian Ciolos, 40, a Romanian technocrat who has spent so much of his life studying and working in France that he regards it as his adoptive country.

    Mr Ciolos, whose wife is French, has been nicknamed the "second French commissioner" by newspapers in Paris and Bucharest.

    He studied agriculture in Rennes, is a fan of the French system of farm subsidies and production - and is also a friend of Mr Barnier.

    "The second victory is that our friends, the Romanians, have agriculture," Mr Sarkozy boasted after learning that his discreet lobbying for Mr Ciolos' appointment had borne fruit.

    While considering his stance on reform of the CAP, which in any case benefits backward Romanian farmers more than most in Europe, Mr Ciolos will have a powerful voice whispering in his ear: that of Mr Barnier.

    Mr Barnier told French reporters that he would be keeping the work of his colleagues, and particularly Mr Ciolos, whom he cited by name, under close watch.

    "It is a duty to participate and be interested in what others do," he said. "He (Ciolos) will be independent but I will give him my opinion."

    In case Mr Ciolos was uncertain of that, Mr Barnier added that he saw it as essential to "preserve farm regulations, because feeding people is not a service like any other."

    The fact that the two men are friends and hold similar pro-regulation and pro-subsidy views on European agriculture reveals just how skilfully the French president played his cards over the Commission appointments.

    While Gordon Brown expended political capital championing the lost political cause of Tony Blair for the new post of European Council president, then "triumphed" by securing the high profile but almost powerless job of "high representative for foreign affairs" for the previously little-known Labour peer Baroness Ashton, Mr Sarkozy was engaged in a more subtle game.

    Now it is clear that France has secured two of the posts most likely to cause irritation - and, quite possibly, damage - to Britain.

    So what is Mr Barnier really like, and what does he believe?

    Friends say that he has a motto of which he likes to remind himself when the going gets tough: "Stay professional and stay pleasant." One friend said: "That is a bit Boy Scout-ish - but he's like that."

    Last week Mr Barnier told French radio that the British reaction to his appointment had been "very exaggerated". "I know the importance of the City of London, I know the major importance of this financial institution for the growth of the United Kingdom and the whole European economy," he said.

    He declined to give any British media interviews to help quell the alarm in London, but agreed to accept three emailed questions from The Sunday Telegraph.

    His replies were diplomatically bland. Asked what "Anglo-Saxon" banking had to learn from the French or European model, he responded: "I'm not going to give lessons to anyone. Together, we need to learn lessons from this crisis. We all have something to learn from it."

    He declined to say whether he would back a possible EU-wide tax, a controversial option that has been floated by the European Council's newly-installed president, Herman van Rompuy.

    Asked his views on reducing the size of the CAP for the EU's next budget period, he said this was for the new Commission to discuss. "Of course, like all my fellow Commissioners, I will participate," he added.

    Colleagues say that he bristles at the idea of being branded Mr Sarkozy's poodle in Brussels, maintaining that he will be bound by oath to be independent.

    Yet the beauty of his appointment, from the Elysee Palace's point of view, is that he already shares much of Mr Sarkozy's outlook on Europe and the world.

    Originally from the Savoie area of the Alps, Mr Barnier has been active in the right-wing Gaullist movement - named after the wartime leader and subsequent president, General de Gaulle - since he was 15. A career politician, he graduated from one of France's elite "grande école" business schools in 1972 and six years later was elected to the French national assembly becoming, at 27, the country's youngest MP.

    He has served as a European commissioner for regional policy from 1999 until 2004 - and in the French government, as environment minister, European affairs secretary and foreign minister.

    Some consider him a committed federalist - "federalist to the fingertips" was how one Eurosceptic critic put it. But friends put it differently. He believes strongly in the nation state, but argues with equal force that nations must serve the wider European good. "He approaches everything as a committed European," one friend said.

    Mr Barnier supports the idea of a "Franco-German" tandem leading Europe and said of the alliance in an interview with Politique Internationale in 2005, reproduced on the website of the French Embassy in London: "When it doesn't work, nothing much works."

    He served just over a year aas French foreign minister before being replaced following the country's "no" vote to the revised European Constitution in 2005. When Nicolas Sarkozy was elected in 2007 he returned to favour and was appointed agriculture minister. He headed the list of candidates for Mr Sarkozy's right wing UMP party for the European Parliament elections earlier this year.

    A jazz lover, his wife Isabelle is an adviser to the French health minister, and they have three children in their twenties.

    The sudden advancement of his friend, Mr Ciolos, who will manage around 55 billion euros in European farm subsidies in the 2010 budget, is a triumph for Mr Barnier's view of France's role in Europe.

    During one spell in government, he said one of his aims was to secure "a French presence in all central, eastern and Baltic European countries". The appointment of Mr Ciolos seems to have proved the benefits to France of that approach. Whether there is benefit to Britain is another matter.
    so, CAP is going to continue to be wasted on continental farmers, at the same time DOHA is buried, and europeans pat themselves on the back by giving out free tractors to the developing world at the same time we keep them poor by erecting trade barriers and obstructing free trade.

    AWESOME!
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  28. #988
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Why do people think regulation is always a bad thing? I remember reading about the days when there were no regulation and missing body parts was an all time high. Regulation is important to make sure things go right and proper regulation would have stopped the problems in the economy.

    Also, defending the banks all the time just shows naviety. Looks at the recent (see: month or so ago) when the banks made a big profit. They spent 2 billion on bonuses. While Furunculus might think this was a brilliant idea, especially as we had to bail them out for doing such a poor job, there were far better uses of that 2 Billion such as putting it into loans to help the economy, or even invest it in capital, or even pay back the tax payer some of its money.

    On another note, could we stop talking about tax payers money in relation to GDP? It is a scam. You could go "Bankers Free Ride on the Government is 2% GDP" which translates to 10% of National Tax Income. It makes people think that it is only costing 2% when the ratio to taxes is far higher.
    because regulation is a blunt tool that invariably acts to torture human nature away from its natural expression.
    because regulation is beloved and most extensively practiced by those of a statist nature who believe in social engineering.
    because regulation, implemented lightly and judiciously, is something that statists never achieve, because there is always another element of the human condition they can 'improve' with just a bit more regulation.
    because social science is not a science, it is a faith that you can express the breadth of human emotion and frailty with a simplified model of collective behavior.
    it is an arrogance that leads to ideology which is invariably a universal failure for the reason mentioned above, and it is usually grossly intrusive to the individuals it is practiced upon.
    worse, the damage that is done by these social engineers is blithely disregarded as a necessary and temporary evil, to achieve the glorious emancipation of humanity......... as they see it.
    there is a world of difference between a social engineer/scientist and an real engineer or scientist, and I will always have contempt for those that think they can engineer away the less perfect parts of the human condition via some pseudo-scientific ideology realised as a non stop bombardment of regulation.

    re: the banks, if our government is even half-way competent then it will eventually make the taxpayer a profit when it sells off its stake in the banks. however, the fact that they created the tripartite system of financial governance in the first place shows that they are not competant, i can only hope that the Cons do better.

    and no, i will never stop drawing attention to the fact that government spending is created out of taxing me and you, and that when a government is spending over 40% of GDP it is quite simply immoral.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  29. #989
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Women challenge the Irish abortion law in the european courts:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ean-court.html

    now we'll see what the Irish opt-out is worth.

    if the opt-out is vigorously upheld, then my objections are less pressing then i imagined them to be.

    if the opt-out is slapped down, then i am delighted, as it will be further fuel on the fire in the eyes of British voters.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    the phrase; may you live in interesting times, seems very applicable to the eurozone atm:
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...665679,00.html
    Timebomb for the Euro
    Greek Debt Poses a Danger to Common Currency

    By Wolfgang Reuter

    As economic indicators have improved, concern about the financial crisis has abated. But the next big problem could be approaching. Greece's public deficit is skyrocketing and the country may become insolvent. The effect on Europe's common currency could be dire.

    Josef Ackermann, the CEO of Deutsche Bank, has given the all-clear signal many times in the past. He has repeatedly said that the worst was over, only to see the financial crisis strengthen its grip on the world economy.

    Last week, however, Ackermann was singing a completely different tune. Although many indicators are once again pointing skyward, he said at a Berlin summit on the economy, Chancellor Angela Merkel, the assembled cabinet ministers, corporate CEOs and union leaders should not to be deluded. He warned emphatically that the financial situation could deteriorate once again. "A few time bombs" are still ticking, Ackermann told his audience, noting that the growing problems of highly leveraged small countries could lead to new tremors. And then, almost casually, Ackermann mentioned the problem child of the European financial world by name: Greece.

    Ackermann isn't alone in his opinion. Practically unnoticed by the public, an issue has returned to the forefront in recent weeks -- one that was a cause for great concern at the height of the financial crisis but then, as optimism about the economy began to grow, was eventually forgotten: the fear of a national bankruptcy in the euro zone. And the question as to whether such a bankruptcy, should it come about, could destroy the common European currency.

    Greece was always at the very top of the list of countries at risk. But now the danger appears to be more acute than ever.

    Insuring Against Default

    The seismographs in the trading rooms at investment banks detected the initial tremors weeks ago. Today, when the code "Greece CDS 10Yr" appears on Bloomberg terminals, a curve at the bottom of the screen points sharply upward. It reflects the price that banks are now charging to insure 10-year Greek government bonds against default.

    The price of these securities has jumped dramatically since Greek Finance Minister Giorgos Papakonstantinou announced three weeks ago that his country's budget deficit would reach 12.7 percent of gross domestic product this year, instead of the 6 percent originally forecast -- and well about the 3 percent limit foreseen by European Union rules.

    A second curve is the mirror image of the first. It depicts the price of government bonds from the euro-zone country. It points sharply downward.

    Greece already pays almost 2 percent more in interest on its debt than Germany. In other words, at a total debt of €270 billion ($402 billion), Greece will be paying €5 billion more in annual interest than it would if it were Germany. And, with rating agencies threatening to downgrade the country's already dismal credit rating, the situation is only likely to get worse.

    The finance ministers and central bankers of the euro-zone member states are as alarmed as they are helpless. "The Greek problem," says a senior administration official in Berlin, "will be an acid test for the currency union."

    No Buyers Can Be Found

    Greece has already accumulated a mountain of debt that will be difficult if not impossible to pay off. The government has borrowed more than 110 percent of the country's economic output over the years, and if investors lose confidence in the bonds, a meltdown could happen as early as next year.

    That's when the government borrowers in Athens will be required to refinance €25 billion worth of debt -- that is, repay what they owe using funds borrowed from the financial markets. But if no buyers can be found for its securities, Greece will have no choice but to declare insolvency -- just as Mexico, Ecuador, Russia and Argentina have done in past decades.

    This puts Brussels in a predicament. European Union rules preclude the 27-member bloc from lending money to member states to plug holes in their budgets or bridge deficits.

    And even if there were a way to circumvent this prohibition, the consequences could be disastrous. The lack of concern over budget discipline in countries like Spain, Italy and Ireland would spread like wildfire across the entire continent. The message would be clear: Why save, if others will eventually foot the bill?

    A Domino Effect

    On the other hand, if Brussels left the Greeks to their own devices, the consequences would also be dire. Confidence in the euro would be shattered, and the union would face a crucial test. What good is a common currency, many would ask, if some of the member states pay their debts while others do not?

    Furthermore, there is a threat of a domino effect. If one euro member falls, speculators will test the stability of other potential bankruptcy candidates. This could destroy the currency union. Because of this systemic risk, say the economists at the Swiss bank UBS, "we believe that if a country is facing a problem with debt repayment or issuance, it will be supported.

    A default of a euro-group country doesn't worry the monetary policy hawks at the Bundesbank, Germany's central bank. "So what if Greece stops paying its debts?" one of the executive board members asked at a recent banquet in Frankfurt. "The euro is strong enough to take it." The real threat, he says, is if Brussels comes to the Greeks' aid. "Then the currency union will turn into an inflation union."

    But it remains to be seen whether politicians can maintain such an unbending approach. The prices for Greek government bonds plunged once in the past, until then German Finance Minister Peer Steinbrück, to the horror of the Bundesbank, publicly pledged to help the Greeks if necessary. There is much to be said for the government taking exactly the same position today.

    Can Bankruptcy Be Prevented?

    A national bankruptcy in Greece would have a serious impact on Germany, where many banks have invested heavily in the high-yield Greek treasury bonds -- after borrowing the money to buy the bonds from the European Central Bank (ECB) or other central banks at rates of 1-2 percent. Making money doesn't get much easier -- as long as the Greeks remain solvent.

    But can a Greek bankruptcy even be prevented anymore? The answer, at least initially, depends heavily on the ECB. Will the custodian of the euro continue to accept Greek bonds as collateral for short-term liquidity assistance, or will it turn down the securities in the future? Another possibility is a compromise, under which the banks would pay additional interest when they submit Greek bonds.

    The next meeting of the ECB takes place on Dec. 17. "The subject will be on the agenda," say officials in Frankfurt. Time is of the essence.

    Central bankers in the euro zone are already speculating, behind closed doors, what would happen if the Greeks started printing euros without ECB approval. There is no answer to the question, and that makes central bankers from Lisbon to Dublin even more nervous than they are already.

    Massaging Budget Figures

    And more mistrustful. In 2004, it was discovered, completely by accident, that Greece had only managed to qualify for entry into the currency union by massaging its budget figures. The Greeks have only complied with the Maastricht criteria once since the introduction of the euro, in 2006.

    Even those figures may have been doctored. At the time, the Greeks managed to increase their official gross national product by a hefty 25 percent, partly because they included the black market and prostitution in economic output. This brought down the deficit rate -- on paper, at any rate -- to 2.9 percent.

    The figures representing Greece's budget deficit are constantly being revised upward. The most recent uptick, by close to 7 percent, is a record for Europe -- and it comes in a country that was relatively unaffected by the financial crisis. This year, the Greek economy will have shrunk by only 1.2 percent, say Greek economists. Next year they expect the economy to return to grown, albeit modest.

    Particularly vexing to the remaining EU countries is the fact that Greece has profited from its EU membership for decades. Year after year, net transfers from Brussels have exceeded payments moving in the opposite direction by €3 billion to €6 billion. These numbers, too, have often been suspect. At times, the land area declared for agricultural subsidies was incorrect, and sometimes approval conditions were not met.

    Resolute Words

    Nevertheless, EU politicians find their hands tied. "The game is over," the chairman of the euro group, Jean-Claude Juncker, declared recently, only to turn around and assure the country of his solidarity. "I don't have the slightest suspicion that Greece could go bankrupt -- anyone speculating that this will happen is deluding himself," says Juncker.

    His resolute words were directed at investment bankers in London, Frankfurt and New York. They know full well that Greece is indeed on the brink of bankruptcy, but they don't know whether the EU will, as Juncker insinuated, come to the aid of member state Greece. Juncker's message, in other words, was that those speculating on a bankruptcy could be left out in the cold.

    The EU has now begun a tougher approach to Greece. Three weeks ago, the government in Athens received a rebuke from Brussels, followed by another one last week. So far, however, the Greek government has shown little inclination to take any significant steps. It does intend to reduce the deficit, but only to 9.1 percent next year. This is far too little for many European foreign ministers. As the new Greek finance minister, Giorgos Papakonstantinou, recently announced, the country will need at least four years to get its deficit under control "without jeopardizing the economic recovery."

    But by then the government deficit will have reached about €400 billion, or about 150 percent of GDP. Servicing that amount of debt, even at current interest rates of about 5 percent, will make up at least one third of government spending.

    A London investment banker is betting on the continued decline of prices for Greek bonds in the short term, while simultaneously waiting for the right time to start buying the securities again. He jokes: "If someone has €1,000 in debt, he has a problem. If someone has €10 million in debt, his bank has a problem. And the bank, in this case, is Europe."


    will they or won't they, and what will be the consequence of either?

    interesting times indeed, have fun with that one.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 12-10-2009 at 13:26.
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  30. #990
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Oh dear, British mainstream political parties are once again implicated with the lunatic political fringes common amongst our continental neighbours. Silly tories, it's not as if you weren't warned!

    no wait, turns out is wasn't the tories, its labour, found to be in bed with crazy gypsie hating slovakian fruitcakes of Tito loving fame:
    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/ce...art-three.html
    Labour's unsavoury allies (part three)

    Pes The Party of the European Socialists Annual Congress in Prague has just voted to reinstate Slovakian Prime Minister Robert Fico’s Direction/Social Democracy (SMER) party to full membership of its trans-national political family.

    SMER was suspended from the PES in September 2006 for forming a governing coalition with Ján Slota’s far-right Slovak National Party - a group who make the membership of the BNP look like the audience of a Benjamin Zephaniah poetry recital in an Islington coffee shop.

    At the time, SMER were strongly criticised by PES President Poul Nyrup Rasmussen for failing to adhere to party rules demanding members "refrain from any form of political alliance or co-operation at all levels with any political party which incites or attempts to stir up racial or ethnic prejudices and racial hatred". The coalition remains in place today.

    The Slovak National Party's platform is fairly predictable ultra-nationalist stuff.

    Party leader Ján Slota appears to have a particular problem with Hungarians, declaring them a "tumour in the body of the Slovak nation" and "ugly, bow-legged, Mongoloid characters on disgusting horses". He has also charmingly declared that "we [Slovaks] will sit in our tanks and flatten Budapest" if ethnic Hungarians assert their authority in the Slovakia.

    Gypsies, Slota claims, should be dealt with in "a small courtyard and with a long whip" and refused to apologise for describing the Roma as "race who steal, rob and pilfer" on the grounds that "at least half of the nation think the same way".

    Slota has also praised the country's fascist dictator Jozef Tiso (hanged in 1945) as "one of the greatest sons of the Slovak nation" and dedicated a plaque to him whilst Mayor of the city of Zilina. Homosexuality, he argues, is equivalent to paedophilia.

    I could go on - but I think you get the picture.

    Is it really appropriate for the Labour Party to be aligned to political parties like SMER who remain in coalition with the likes of the Slovak National Party?

    > Labour's unsavoury allies - Part I and Part II
    how can this be? the party of european socialists (PES) , along with their publicly acceptable right wing counterparts the EPP, are surely among the blessed peoples, for they are euro-federalist and can thus do no wrong!

    i thought it was only swivel-eyed right-wing euro-skeptics who abused children, slapped mums around, and hung darkies from the nearest lamp-post?
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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