Calling out the mods.

[A Very Super Market]

I feel as if we're biding our time until we can roast the three loonies.

Speaking of roasts, I'm pretty sure those kitten images were accompanied with captions of mourning, not glee. But that's all ancient history now.

Now, how do I articulate my thoughts on all this....

I must admit, we in the tavern almost perpetually toe the line between irreverency and irresponsibility. Thankfully, this goes on without harming the sanity of most outsiders, merely cultivating the existing mental illness running around in our own heads. I can't exactly apologize for anyone's conduct, as I lack the humility or awareness of the situation. What I can say is that the tavern isn't a wannabe /b/ (Wanna/b/?) out to create trouble. We're simply too lazy to do so. How people can tie those two together is beyond me. The reasons for deletion (Presumably, the sheer volume of profanity), and the reasons for the bans (Obstinance and random defiancy) are entirely separate.

As with any official-sounding statement, this is not directed t'wards anyone in particular, bla, blarh. Maybe I'm just thin-skinned enough to truly care about a misdirected opinion, but I've done my best to keep this post Sunday-School quality. Retreating back to the booze now.

[Socrates on Wheels]

I feel a need to post now, regardless of my ban. Not in order to cause trouble, but just to get my viewpoint across (And send in orders for 30YW)

If you want someone to be pissed at, it was Az and Subotan (And probably AP) that took it outside the bloody group.

If I am responsible for it being banned/destroyed, I’m sorry. I’m guessing the main reason is that I was toeing the line just generally, because I figured that the mods were OK with a little bit of harmless banter now and then (Turns out they aren’t, for some reason), and because of that post I made in the Watchtower which apparently managed to convince everyone of the opposite of what I was trying to get across. I apologise, and I’ll be more careful in the future.

If they wouldn't have posted their stupid links we might have gotten away with it. But drawing attention was stupid and something like that was bound to happen.

What stupid link did I post? Bittorrent? Considering someone was asking for advice about how to get free music over the internet, that was going to come up eventually, regardless of the forum you would have been on. If I hadn't posted it, someone else would have.

Well, you are still welcome to have a group, but I guess the craziness was a bit too crazy.

OK, fine. If people think that that was a problem, then we’ll take that on board. Me and I’m guessing the others arenot too stubborn, or too proud to take valid criticism. However, going along and saying “It was better to just burn the whole thing to ground, as it was too entrenched to edit everything” is going to annoy the people who frequent there regularly. The whole process of dealing with us has swung in a few days from not dealing with it at all to ham-fisted censorship.

Piracy/pr0n are verboten.

We totally understand that, especially the latter. A few months ago, someone did post pr0n in the EB Tavern, which was dealt with, by Appo.

So, think way back when all y'all were removed from TWC

Never happened to me. I never had an account at TWC.

A few may decide that if they can't have their private place to post pictures of kittens being burned to death

This particularly struck me. Yes, I have seen that particular sequence of pictures, but not at this forum, and the place where I did see it I go to very infrequently. And I thought it was horrific, and I would have complained, had I seen it in the EB Tavern. Like I tried to get across before, “We” don’t exist. That’s why I was using quotations marks in that post I made. Just because one member does something does not mean it is endorsed by the whole of the Tavern.

The reasons for deletion (Presumably, the sheer volume of profanity), and the reasons for the bans (Obstinance and random defiancy) are entirely separate.

100% true. You seem to have put two and three together, and come out with four.

What I do know is that most of you guys have provided me with much amusement over time. So I hope that all of you that have been banned get unbanned

This is more of a general criticism of Org policy. Have there been complaints from members of the Org about our behaviour within the Tavern? Or even outside? Has every time one of us made a post, have you been flooded with report buttons? I doubt it. We have a lot to add to the forum, and most of the time, I would say it is appreciated. Likewise, I like the Org’s set up. There are a lot of forums on the internet that suck, and I left one some time ago due to a lack of moderation. The Org’s strict policy towards many subjects is certainly a critical factor in stopping it devolving like that.
But if there is one thing worse than a forum where everybody abuses each other, it’s a forum where there is no criticism at all. There are few things more tedious than seeing a forum where a few posters with 10,000 < Posts dominate conversation, everyone slaps each other on the back when they make a reference to something mildly amusing that happened five years ago, and the ravings of the resident racists are met with an “Oh, you.”, and a roll of the eyes. New arrivals are isolated and ultimately bored, even if that is not intended.

That’s not what the Org is, and that’s not what I want it to be. But it could be. And I think acting in the way that the Mods have in the past few days is going to lead it down that road.
By banning people who are slightly more likely to be a bit more chaotic when talking amongst themselves, you are preventing those same people from participating in the main threads. You will be left with a forum that is full of boring, uninteresting people, who, although they never swear, put people off from joining the forum as much as somewhere that contains loads of swearing. By having the EB Tavern, which is a voluntary social group, you are vastly expanding your potential userbase, as people who would otherwise be a little more exciting at some times can contribute to the main forum at the same standards as everyone else. No-one is forced to join the EB Tavern, and it’s not a compulsory part of being an Orgah. If you dislike it, don’t join. It’s as simple as that. If you allow it some leniency regarding both language and moderation, you’ll have a livelier forum. Being reactionary about it isn’t going to do anyone any good.

And with regards to “Just use email/IRC/Quicktopic”; those are all amazingly impractical. With the EB Tavern, I’m surrounded by other, intelligent people, and I know that if I leave a comment, someone will reply. Sending out mass emails will kill off our friendship with one another.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

OK, fine. If people think that that was a problem, then we’ll take that on board. Me and I’m guessing the others arenot too stubborn, or too proud to take valid criticism. However, going along and saying “It was better to just burn the whole thing to ground, as it was too entrenched to edit everything” is going to annoy the people who frequent there regularly. The whole process of dealing with us has swung in a few days from not dealing with it at all to ham-fisted censorship.

In the end tosa is busy, and doesn't want to take time out of real life to go through a 1000 pages.

This is more of a general criticism of Org policy. Have there been complaints from members of the Org about our behaviour within the Tavern? Or even outside? Has every time one of us made a post, have you been flooded with report buttons?

Nah, we haven't been flooded with complaints, it was probably the kitten thing that did you in to be honest.

And with regards to “Just use email/IRC/Quicktopic”; those are all amazingly impractical. With the EB Tavern, I’m surrounded by other, intelligent people, and I know that if I leave a comment, someone will reply. Sending out mass emails will kill off our friendship with one another.

You can have a group here...perhaps an arrangement can be worked out.

[Subotan]

Yeah, I usually browse the EB tavern, because they are the funniest people in all Org... I was member of that group too, but rarely speak. Well, it was located in the official photo thread, and I remembered that kitten was the post of AP. It was burned with Zippo... No I don't get shocked at all with that pic... as I allready seen the real kitten slaughtering (and eat kitten too...) maybe he only want to suggest that burning was more humane method of slaughtering kittens (rather than smashing it with hammer or cudgel, it was the standard method to kill cats here)

Yeah...I wasn't going to mention Zippocat by name. Although I still didn't see it here, and had I, I would have reported it.

Everybody knew what was expected; some apparently refused to understand. Now, measures have been taken.

If you insist on wanting to feel badly treated, then there's not much we can do about that

...Except examine those rules and see if they are actually working. By implementing them in social groups, they are achieving the opposite of what they're meant to doing. I haven't seen any explanation as to why having those particular rules applicable in social groups make the .org more interesting or entertaining.

In the end tosa is busy, and doesn't want to take time out of real life to go through a 1000 pages.

Did it even need to be deleted? Or was it threatening to break loose and infect the rest of the forum with it's cuss words and the like?

Nah, we haven't been flooded with complaints,

Exactly, there's no demand for moderation on this scale. Orgahs are quite happy as long as we keep ourselves to ourselves and leave the EB Tavern where it belongs. Moderators are supposed to serve the community they moderate, not some semi-sacred, untouchable Decalogue of rules.

it was probably the kitten thing that did you in to be honest.

Then that should have been dealt with on an individual process, not a collective group punishment (I wasn't aware that it had even existed, so I don't know how it was dealt with)

[Lemur]

Speaking as one of the two mods assigned to the Frontroom, I can assure you that things said in the EB Tavern have not stayed in the EB Tavern, and many a personal insult or troll of another member has been justified with, "Oh, we do this all the time in EB Tavern, what's the big deal?"

As for rules, you'll see we have surprisingly few for a board of this size. Common sense and common courtesy trump all.

I haven't seen any explanation as to why having those particular rules applicable in social groups make the .org more interesting or entertaining.

And I don't see anyone making an argument as to why the social groups should be a private fiefdom where flame wars can rage and offensive content can be trolled. Feel free to make that argument, though.

[NICATON]

Like Subo, i felt like i need to reply in here.

Nah, we haven't been flooded with complaints, it was probably the kitten thing that did you in to be honest.

I knew it had to be that. i should have said something, especially after the last time when he posted those pictures of that girl's mangled body after a car accident.

Speaking as one of the two mods assigned to the Frontroom, I can assure you that things said in the EB Tavern have not stayed in the EB Tavern, and many a personal insult or troll of another member has been justified with, "Oh, we do this all the time in EB Tavern, what's the big deal?"

I want links to some examples please.

And I don't see anyone making an argument as to why the social groups should be a private fiefdom where flame wars can rage and offensive content can be trolled. Feel free to make that argument, though.

Man, at this point I just want a place where I talk with my Tavern friends (been here for a year and a half already) and shoot the breeze without my sentences becoming stupid daisy's. I don't do any of the friggen trolling or flame wars anymore, you can look at the backroom recently and see that I have been posting intelligent arguments and responding to those who disagree politely, trying to contribute. We made the thing moderated so only we would be the ones talking in it and no one else would raise concerns.

[Rilder]

We taverners have a long history of pissing off the mods.

The mods are afraid we might offend someone, while we believe that if you get offended by something said on a forum, maybe you should back off the forum awhile.

I admit we go to far sometimes, and some of our members need a little bit more self control, but for the most part the Taven has always been a place to unwind, to rant about something a mod did behind the mods back or to make fun of each other.

Free The Tavern, Free the Tavern!

[Lemur]

I want links to some examples please.

I'm sorry, am I suddenly in the business of satisfying your curiosity? Am I supposed to hunt through all of the infractions that have been accrued in the last year, correlate them with my PM box and find you examples, which you will doubtless dismiss anyway?

I am not in the habit of lying or misrepresenting the truth. It's something of a personal fetish. If my word isn't good enough for you, then we have nothing more to discuss.

Man, at this point I just want a place where I talk with my Tavern friends (been here for a year and a half already) and shoot the breeze without my sentences becoming stupid daisy's.

Gee, it's too bad there's no unmoderated places where you can talk for free on the internet tubes.

[Husar]

What I can say is that the tavern isn't a wannabe /b/ (Wanna/b/?) out to create trouble.

Good riddance.

There's probably a point somewhere in 4chan, like cooking recipes, but a lot that comes from it is just childish, silly and/or offensive. I'm probably old and grumpy but I never understood the appeal of it and never went there on my own. So now I have found this really serious place that appeals to old men like me and those silly kids invade it, guess what? I'm happy that they are crushed down.

[insert some silly lolzkittenzpicture here]

On a somewhat more serious note, I think a lot of the EB tavern people, and probably most 4chan people, lack respect, it's a "me/us vs the rest of the world and whoever doesn't like my kind of humour is a [insert silly lolzkittentpicture]" - attitude and I'm not a fan of it. That doesn't mean that you people haven't made some nice and appreciated Backroom contributions, but whenever this 4chan mentality shows though I wish I had a ban-button, my culture is superior after all.

[Socrates on Wheels]

Good riddance.

There's probably a point somewhere in 4chan, like cooking recipes, but a lot that comes from it is just childish, silly and/or offensive. I'm probably old and grumpy but I never understood the appeal of it and never went there on my own. So now I have found this really serious place that appeals to old men like me and those silly kids invade it, guess what? I'm happy that they are crushed down.

[insert some silly lolzkittenzpicture here]

Very occassionally, I visit /b/. I think that, if you know where to look, you can find some amazingly funny things there. The majority of things there are stupid/offensive though, which is why I don't visit there often
Likewise, I think I can find some amazingly funny things here as well, and that the majority of things said here are intelligent. I'm not attempting to turn it into /b/, and I'm sure no-one else is either.

[Cute Wolf]

Well, I must admit that I've seen the burning kitten pics in the tavern, at the photo thread, AP posts it as the answer of someone who post his dog's photo (note: that dog was really normal dog pics)

[Fixiwee]

Well, I must admit that I've seen the burning kitten pics in the tavern, at the photo thread, AP posts it as the answer of someone who post his dog's photo (note: that dog was really normal dog pics)

Really? Woah.

[Cute Wolf]

Yeah, I usually browse the EB tavern, because they are the funniest people in all Org... I was member of that group too, but rarely speak. Well, it was located in the official photo thread, and I remembered that kitten was the post of AP. It was burned with Zippo... No I don't get shocked at all with that pic... as I allready seen the real kitten slaughtering (and eat kitten too...) maybe he only want to suggest that burning was more humane method of slaughtering kittens (rather than smashing it with hammer or cudgel, it was the standard method to kill cats here)

[TosaInu]

Bans are announced in another topic in this forum, it hasn't been updated for a while.

Some people did post :daisies: and that was rewarded with ipoints. Those accounts are demoted for a few days.