City Population

[abou]

For example, when the Romans fought the Seleucids at Magnesia, their 30 000 men strong army soundly defeated Antiochos' army of 70 000 men...

Not quite. Here is what I wrote for the Magnesia battle description:

NOTE:
Many of you who play EB have by now become familiar with many of the big events in the history of the Mediterranean basin. No doubt that of that many, many have read Livy or other historians both ancient and modern and find themselves focusing on Rome and its achievements. I am quite certain that among you there is a measure of puzzlement at the sheer size of the Roman force as Livy describes their number at being only 33,000. I assure you that this is not an error on my part.

Livy as an historian had a specific goal in mind with his writings: to reawaken a sense a virtue in the Roman people, which was perceived to be lost, by writing about the exploits of Rome’s heroes and citizens. As a result, strictly recounting history is a secondary goal for Livy (although this does not make his writings useless to us) and we see this in his skewing of numbers for the events of Magnesia. After all, what is more impressive: winning a battle with 50,000+ troops or with 33,000?
So, where did the numbers for the Roman army under L. Cornelius Scipio come from?

The numbers are directly from Livy himself. Throughout the several hundred lines devoted to recounting the war between Antiochos and Rome Livy continuously mentions specific numbers of troops raised from both Rome and her allies. It was only recently that those numbers were put together after careful scrutiny by historian John D. Grainger. Hence the value of 50,000+ for the Roman forces.

Back to the main point - guys, don't get caught up in numbers. If it helps, consider the populations of cities as those being only males eligible for military service. I know, it doesn't completely work out that way, but remember that the games are only an abstraction. If you get caught up with every little detail, you'll keep yourself from enjoying the game.

As far as army numbers go, I would consider 240 (242 with the officers) men in a phalanx unit on large as the equivalent of a 4,096 man strategiai. Adjusting unit numbers to more accurately match that ratio is on the list of things to do, but it's low, low down on that list.

[Ca Putt]

did i get this right? you are considering(not yet planning) to increase unit sizes to epic values? or "just" adjust them to more fitting numbers below 300 ? thus 256 for phalangitai etc.

[Bucefalo]

If you take a closer look, he said the ratio, not the actual numbers.

Adjusting unit numbers to more accurately match that ratio is on the list of things to do, but it's low, low down on that list.

It also makes sense too, as representing the actual numbers is impossible with the M2TW engine, you can´t have a phalanx unit of 4.096 soldiers, for example.

[tarem]

Not quite. Here is what I wrote for the Magnesia battle description:


Back to the main point - guys, don't get caught up in numbers. If it helps, consider the populations of cities as those being only males eligible for military service. I know, it doesn't completely work out that way, but remember that the games are only an abstraction. If you get caught up with every little detail, you'll keep yourself from enjoying the game.

As far as army numbers go, I would consider 240 (242 with the officers) men in a phalanx unit on large as the equivalent of a 4,096 man strategiai. Adjusting unit numbers to more accurately match that ratio is on the list of things to do, but it's low, low down on that list.

now this is a very good scaling idea. if 1 phalanx unit would represent 4096 men under arms, then 20 of those (full stack) are roughly 82000men. take into account different squad sizes for different factions and units and you would get from 50000 to 100000 men for different full stacks which fits nicely with most documented "grand" armies of the ancients. i like playing this kind of math. so 1 imperial era legion could roughly be represented as 5500 infantry which scales down to 325men unit. can the engine support larger then 300men units? but those 5500 had also some auxilia attached to them so the heavy infantry component would be around 5000-5100men which translates to 300 men unit at full strength. so far so good. but the problem is (i am sure this has been discussed before) how to represent pre-marian legions? any ideas?

[Macilrille]

Abou, hammer+ nail+ Abou BANG!!! Right on point!

The game is an abstraction. It must by necessity be, even World in Flame depicting the relatively well documented WWII must by necessity be an abstraction. It is a game, not RL, so sod the numbers, as long as relative strengths work.

As for ancient populations the only one we know with some slight degree certainty is Rome's thanks to their Census and the work done by Brunt. However, even that is in no way 100 % accurate. We also have fairly accurate ideas of Denmark's population as there has been a lot of digging going on the last 30 years, but from there to say "Denmark had" or even elaborate to "Germania must have had" is sheer folly.

Perhaps one day you will get a detailed depiction of RL, but it will still be an abstraction because of our lack of knowledge and playability.

The game is a game, play it as such.

[Horatius]

The way I think of it is the population reflects the average city for your region, you know all of those cities towns and villages that didn't feature enough in history and largely got left off the historical record.