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Thread: Tragedy in Haiti

  1. #91
    Guest Aemilius Paulus's Avatar
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    Question Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    I wonder what Limbaugh will say on this second one. Seriously, do most conservatives still listen to him? I mean, if so many of the solid Republicans are the Christian right, he should go down quickly after protesting the aid sent to Haiti, because many, if not most of those evangelical Christians are quite compassionate and support (whether in theory, or more often, in practice) the church missions, tithing, donating to/helping the unfortunate, especially in countries like Haiti. Before, Limbaugh seemed to have been careful not to stray too far from his Religious Right, but now? I see news of him being called a 'shock jock', by reputable news agencies such as BBC (yes, I know the claims of their alleged anti-Americanism).

    Sorry for going slightly off-topic, but is he still alive, politically speaking? For a man who was often called the leading and/or most influential conservative in US?

    I will take this to another thread, Kukri, if you so wish, although I do not believe it deserves one...

  2. #92
    But it was on sale!! Scienter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post

    the drug-addled radio race baiter
    This is one of the best descriptions of Limbaugh I've seen in a while. I might have to steal it for personal use.

  3. #93
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post


    I think Little Martian, Furunculus, et al, just had a collective heart-attack.
    A collective giggle and eye roll, perhaps. I'm glad you acknowledged that we have hearts, though.
    Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 01-20-2010 at 21:56.

  4. #94
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    A collective giggle and eye roll, perhaps. I'm glad you acknowledged that we have hearts, though.
    We all know right wingers are heartless iron men. Stop trying to fool us.

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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Poor people... I really start to reconsider the term "misfortune"... I've heard terrible things about the conditions of life there...

    The earthquake just worsened the situation and attracted the attention to these people. I really wonder how many countries like this exist/on the verge of disaster and are aside from the public attention... Of course, everything possible should be done to help the people of Haiti...
    Last edited by Prince Cobra; 01-21-2010 at 19:33.
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  6. #96
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Asen View Post
    Poor people... I really start to reconsider the term "misfortune"... I've heard terrible things about the conditions of life there...

    The earthquake just worsened the situation and attracted the attention to these people.
    Few people ever die from natural disasters. Casualty rates of disasters are overwhelmingly determined by human variables. This same earthquake would've been a minor disaster with a few thousand casualties if it had happened in, say, Japan.

    There is very little 'misfortune' about any of this.


    I really wonder how many countries like this exist/on the verge of disaster and are aside from the public attention...
    Misery is quantifiable. One of the measurements is the Human Development Index. This would suggest 33 countries are more miserable than Haíti. With few exceptions, all located in Sub-Sahara Africa.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...elopment_Index


    Haïti is not far off the radar in Washington and Paris. There has been intense foreign political involvement for the past fifteen years. (Or, if one wants, for the last century, or since the very beginning)
    Even before the earthquake, there were more foreign troops per capita in Haïti than in Afghanistan. The country is a virtual mandate territory.

    In fact, I wish America would occupy Haïti. Politically unfeasable, but by any practical measure, a blessing.

    Compare in this regard, if you wish, on the HDI, Haïti with the French Caribbean colonies that did not became independent: Guadeloupe, Martinique, Guyana. These have a development of the level of Portugal, Czech Republic, Kuwait.
    These former colonies receive political stability plus an endless transfer of funds() from Metropolitan France. Otherwise they differ very little in demography, geography or history from Haïti.
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  7. #97
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    In fact, I wish America would occupy Haïti. Politically unfeasable, but by any practical measure, a blessing.
    Yeah, 'cause we aren't doing enough nation-building in Afghanistan and Iraq. What we really need is another basket-case zombie country which we will try to normalize. Yikes.

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Yank imperialist Yank weakling.

    France shall now proceed to berate America for not militarily occupying Haíti.
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 01-22-2010 at 14:18.
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  9. #99
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Louis, I'm very sorry we're letting you down, but imperialism just doesn't pay when you can't enslave, rape and pillage the natives. And rebuilding Haiti from the ground up into something about as prosperous as, say, Puerto Rico would make Germany's re-absorption of East Germany look like a minor expense.

  10. #100
    Slixpoitation Member A Very Super Market's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    It's all Napoleon's fault.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    In fact, I wish America would occupy Haïti.”
    Louis, President Woodrow Wilson tried it before.

    Between 1911 and 1915 seven Haitian presidents were assassinated and in 1914 the USA “remove” $ 500,000 for safe keeping from the Haitian Central bank

    Wilson sent the United States Marines into Haiti to restore order and maintain political and economic stability in the Caribbean after the assassination of the Haitian President in July of 1915.

    Then following the 1915 elections (some say manipulated), the Wilson Administration attempted to strong-arm the Haitian legislature into adopting a new constitution in 1917. This constitution allowed foreign land ownership, which had been outlawed since the Haitian Revolution as a way to prevent foreign control of the country
    Racial discrimination, abuse of powers and forced labour stated a peasant revolt from 1919-1920.
    In 1929, a series of strikes and uprisings led the United States to begin withdrawal from Haiti

    The occupation continued until 1934.
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  12. #102
    Guest Aemilius Paulus's Avatar
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    Question Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Yeah, but even more spectacularly, Cuba offered to sell itself to US. Which one should have US taken, if given a choice between the two? Obviously Cuba is a superb investment, clearly superior to Haiti, but I am talking about the hypothetical moral (because morality is purely hypothetical in itself xP) perspective. Buying Cuba, or occupying Haiti?

  13. #103
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Dawkins: retribution for sin is the central dogma of Christianity. Robertson, far from being a fringe lunatic, was right, at least, accepting of the central tenet of Christianity.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    We know what caused the catastrophe in Haiti. It was the bumping and grinding of the Caribbean Plate rubbing up against the North American Plate: a force of nature, sin-free and indifferent to sin, unpremeditated, unmotivated, supremely unconcerned with human affairs or human misery.
    The religious mind, however, hubristically appropriates the blind happenings of physics for petty moralistic purposes. As with the Indonesian tsunami, which was blamed on loose sexual morals in tourist nightclubs; as with Hurricane Katrina, which was attributed to divine revenge on the entire city of New Orleans for organising a gay rally; and as with other disasters going back to the famous Lisbon earthquake and beyond, so Haiti’s tragedy must be payback for human “sin”.


    The Rev Pat Robertson, infamous American televangelist, sees the hand of God in the earthquake, wreaking terrible retribution for a 1791 pact that the Haitians made with the Devil, to help to rid them of their French masters. 1791? Ah, but don’t forget “I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me”.
    Needless to say, milder-mannered faith-heads fell over themselves to disown Robertson, just as they disowned those other pastors, evangelists, missionaries and mullahs at the time of the earlier disasters.


    What hypocrisy. Loathsome as Robertson’s views undoubtedly are, he is the Christian who stands squarely in the Christian tradition. The agonised theodiceans who see suffering as an intractable “mystery”, or who see God in the help, money and goodwill that is now flooding into Haiti, or (most nauseating of all) who claim to see God “suffering on the cross” in the ruins of Port-au-Prince, those faux-anguished hypocrites are denying the centrepiece of their own theology. It is the obnoxious Pat Robertson who is the true Christian here.
    Where was God in Noah’s flood? He was systematically drowning the entire world, animal as well as human, as punishment for “sin”. Where was God when Sodom and Gomorrah were consumed with fire and brimstone? He was deliberately barbecuing the citizenry, lock, stock and barrel, as punishment for “sin”.


    “Oh but that’s the Old Testament. No one believes those stories literally any more. The New Testament is all about love.” Dear modern, enlightened, theologically sophisticated, gentle Christian, you cannot be serious. Your entire religion is founded on an obsession with “sin”, with punishment and with atonement. Where do you find the effrontery to condemn Pat Robertson, you who have signed up to the odious doctrine that the central purpose of Jesus’s incarnation was to have himself tortured as a scapegoat for the “sins” of all mankind, past, present and future, beginning with the “sin” of Adam, who (as any modern theologian well knows) never even existed?


    Yes, I know you hate the word “scapegoat” (with good reason, because it is a barbaric idea) but what other word would you use? The only respect in which “scapegoat” falls short as a perfect epitome of Christian theology is that the Christian atonement is even more unpleasant. The goat of Jewish tradition was merely driven into the wilderness with its cargo of symbolic sin. Jesus was supposedly tortured and executed to atone for sins that, any rational person might protest, he had it in his power simply to forgive, without the agony. Among all the ideas ever to occur to a nasty human mind (Paul’s of course), the Christian “atonement” would win a prize for pointless futility as well as moral depravity.
    Even without the stark heartlessness of Pat Robertson, tragedies like Haiti are meat and drink to the theological mind. To quote the president of one theological seminary, writing in the On Faith blog of the Washington Post: “The earthquake in Haiti, like every other earthly disaster, reminds us that creation groans under the weight of sin and the judgment of God. This is true for every cell in our bodies, even as it is for the crust of the earth at every point on the globe.”


    You nice, middle-of-the-road theologians and clergymen, be-frocked and bleating in your pulpits, you disclaim Pat Robertson's suggestion that the Haitians are paying for a pact with the Devil. But you worship a god-man who — as you tell your congregations, even if you don’t believe it yourself — “cast out devils”. You even believe (or you don’t disabuse your flock when they believe) that Jesus cured a madman by causing the “devils” in him to fly into a herd of pigs and stampede them over a cliff. Charming story, well calculated to uplift and inspire the Sunday School and the Infant Bible Class.
    Robertson may spout evil nonsense, but he is a mere amateur at that game. Just read your own New Testament. Pat Robertson is true to it. But you?


    Educated apologist, how dare you weep Christian tears, when your entire theology is one long celebration of suffering: suffering as payback for “sin” — or suffering as “atonement” for it? You may weep for Haiti where Pat Robertson does not, but at least, in his hick, sub-Palinesque ignorance, he holds up an honest mirror to the ugliness of Christian theology. You are nothing but a whited sepulchre.


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle7007065.ece
    What is the difference between telling Haitians they suffer for their sins, and telling a child he suffers for his sins?
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  14. #104
    Member Megas Methuselah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Yeah, occupy Haiti. Poor black people can't handle independance, and they need European domination. It's for their own good.

    Another option: stay in Europe where you friggin belong.
    Last edited by Megas Methuselah; 01-31-2010 at 08:54.

  15. #105
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Funny Lemur mentioned zombies.

    Makes me wonder what has happened to all those zombie slaves in Haiti, and if all the vulnerable people will make good targets for zombie initiates.
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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Quote Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah View Post
    Yeah, occupy Haiti. Poor black people can't handle independance, and they need European domination. It's for their own good.

    Another option: stay in Europe where you friggin belong.
    They truly cannot, though it doesn't have anything to do with being black. The Yugoslav states didn't do too well either.
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Quote Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah View Post
    Yeah, occupy Haiti. Poor black people can't handle independance, and they need European domination. It's for their own good.

    Another option: stay in Europe where you friggin belong.
    America isn't part of Europe.

    The Economist suggests setting up an extra-governmental foreign authority:
    Fortunately there is a blueprint, drawn up by Haiti’s government and presented to donors last year. It calls for investment to be targeted on infrastructure, basic services and combating soil erosion to make farmers more productive and the country less vulnerable to hurricanes. The pressing question is who should do it and how. Haiti’s government is in no position to take charge, yet the country needs a strong government to put it to rights. Paul Collier, a development economist who worked on the plan, reckons that the answer is to set up a temporary development authority with wide powers to act.

    Given the local vacuum of power, this is the best idea around. The authority should be set up under the auspices of the UN or of an ad hoc group (the United States, Canada, the European Union and Brazil, for example). It should be led by a suitable outsider (Bill Clinton, who is the UN’s special envoy for Haiti, would be ideal, perhaps to be followed by Brazil’s Lula after he steps down as president in a year’s time) and a prominent Haitian, such as the prime minister. To provide services, it should work with aid groups.

    Some will object that this would undermine a democratically elected government. But there is not much left to undermine. Done well, it could create a state in Haiti able to do more than preside over chaos and corruption. Otherwise the suffering of the past ten days risks being repeated.
    Gah.

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  18. #108
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    In fact, I wish America would occupy Haïti.”
    Louis, President Woodrow Wilson tried it before.

    Between 1911 and 1915 seven Haitian presidents were assassinated and in 1914 the USA “remove” $ 500,000 for safe keeping from the Haitian Central bank
    True, though you forget to mention that the money was eventually returned -- with proper interest -- during the resumption of Haitian control over their Central Bank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus
    Wilson sent the United States Marines into Haiti to restore order and maintain political and economic stability in the Caribbean after the assassination of the Haitian President in July of 1915.
    The USMC, and the USMC-officered Garde Haiti which did most of the lifting thereafter, broke the back of the incessant "caco" rebellions and established the closest thing to true stability that Haiti experienced since rebelling from France.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus
    Then following the 1915 elections (some say manipulated), the Wilson Administration attempted to strong-arm the Haitian legislature into adopting a new constitution in 1917. This constitution allowed foreign land ownership, which had been outlawed since the Haitian Revolution as a way to prevent foreign control of the country
    Racial discrimination, abuse of powers and forced labour stated a peasant revolt from 1919-1920.
    Yes, we ran a very smooth and fair election....but rigged the candidates going in to get the leader we wanted. The Legislaure -- which really represented the Mulatto oligarch families -- six families owned much of Haiti's economy -- didn't like the idea of foreign owned (and efficient) companies urinating in their soup. Trying to portray this legislature as truly "representative" -- especially of the noirs -- would be a stretch. Their opposition was hardly surprising.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus
    In 1929, a series of strikes and uprisings led the United States to begin withdrawal from Haiti. The occupation continued until 1934.
    US Domestic politics and public opinion had more to do with Hoover opting out. The Hoover admin had enough on its plate without the media writing stories about abuses in Haiti (of which there were few, but even a few is too many). They wanted to go back to "dollar diplomacy" instead.

    Interestingly, for all of the commentary on the USMC waging wars for United Fruit, US interventions in the Caribean and C.A. tended to occur where little US or British investment had been made. Even afterwards, the scope of US investment in these countries did not increase by orders of magnitude. Cuba, on the other hand, we put a lot of money into and then Didn't take control even when it was offered.
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  19. #109
    Member Megas Methuselah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    America isn't part of Europe.
    It was aimed the frenchman, actually (in spite of the fact that he argued for USA intervention. Whites are euros, too, but that's another matter entirely).

  20. #110
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Aimed at me? Me, I'm not European. My ancestors are Middle Easterners, who genocided the European males and took their wives*. Europeans you'll find in the Basque area.

    Rather, some of my ancestors are. Because these Middle Easterners, including the Basques, were swept away by the next tide. Coming from the Central Asian plains, they tamed the horse and destroyed all before them as they spread theor genes and Indo-European language from the British Isles to India.

    In other words, get over it. There are Turks in Southeast Europe. Tatars right next to Moscow. Magyars in the heart of Europe. After two hundred, five hundred years, thousand years, nobody is calling for them to 'go back where they belong in Asia'.
    The colonisation of Spain by the Moors left it as mixed as Spanish colonisation of Mexico left that country mixed.

    Such is history.

    *Or so does recent DNA investigation of the spread of agriculture in Europe suggest.
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  21. #111
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tragedy in Haiti

    Don't ask me how he did it http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/am...cue/index.html

    I bucket of water in the ocean considering the scope of this tragedy, but still.

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