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Thread: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    using your own link i see a different picture:
    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/do...ent%20Of%20GDP
    No, your/mine link unequivocally shows that, until the current international crisis broke out, Labour managed to decrease debt as percentage of GDP.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    1997 815.881 43.76
    1998 865.71 40.87
    1999 911.945 38.84
    2000 958.931 33.32
    2001 1003.3 32.06
    2002 1055.79 33.06
    2003 1118.24 34.00
    2004 1184.3 35.62
    2005 1233.98 37.40
    2006 1303.92 38.41
    2007 1343.75 44.80
    2008 1419.55 43.24
    2009 1439 55.20




    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus
    besides which, labours financial competance is already starkly obvious:
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpo...&postcount=129
    The Financial Times, Britain's foremost source of financial news and analysis, by no standard a leftist institute, ran an interesting debate about Britain's performance in the past decade. A host of Britain's foremost economists, bankers, financial experts, captain's of industry debate the UK's performance in the last decade. Specifically, the question whether British strong economic performance was illusory.

    The consensus, if not unanimous, is that the strong British economic performance in the past decade was to a large extent real, and structural.

    One needs to be a registered member to read the FT, so I shall link the debate in full.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    End of the decade: To what degree was Britain’s strong economic performance over most of the last decade, relative to other major developed economies, an illusion? What has been the most surprising economic event or trend of the past decade? What do you think will surprise others in the decade to come?

    Published: January 4 2010 04:22 | Last updated: January 4 2010 04:22

    The following economists’ answers appear in no particular order.

    Dr Tim Leunig, London School of Economics



    Almost all of Britain’s strong economic performance is real (whatever Martin Weale may say!). Britain is better educated, and we have made significant progress in moving away from sectors in which we have little competitive advantage into sectors in which we do. Our labour markets are in many ways superb – look how little unemployment has risen, a tribute to how workers “get it”.
    At one level the most surprising event has been the crash, but for me the surprising thing is that growth could be negative to the extent that it has been with such small employment effects.
    In ten years time we will look back and wonder about the suggestions made circa 2009. Some said it was the end of capitalism, and it wasn’t. Even sane people like Adair Turner said that we should cut back on finance on the grounds that most people buying it don’t get good value for money. (Does the French equivalent of Adair Turner say that France should cut its profitable champagne business on the grounds that more people who drink it can’t tell it from Cava, and therefore don’t get good value for money?)


    Patrick Minford, Cardiff Business School


    No; UK performance was based on solid services growth, consumer spending was in line with GDP more or less. Banking/financial services remain a key part of UK comparative advantage and remain a growth point worldwide, crisis apart, as markets resume trend towards ‘completeness’.
    Capitalism is necessarily crisis-prone since it permits decentralised agents to invest in ‘trends’ that are highly uncertain; they are ‘random walks’.
    The current crisis involved banks as did the ‘roaring 20s’ in the US because the productivity growth of the last decade and a half was sustained and strong, thus sucking banks in.
    No crisis is predictable by definition. That is why this one was not predicted in general and why I cannot tell you what/when the next one will be!
    George Magnus, UBS
    It was an illusion to think boom and bust had been terminated when we were running a large structural fiscal deficit at the top of the boom, and when 60 per cent of our GDP growth was sourced to the bloated financial services and housing sectors. We weren’t alone, but the most brazen example. The most surprising event in the West was surely the near collapse of the financial system, after a decade of official and regulatory neglect and bravado. Elsewhere, it was the unprecedented trendline in China’s economy, and sneaking up behind, India. In the next decade, the next surprises are likely to include a recession in China, India’s demographic and economic catch-up, the re-awakening of America’s technological prowess, and decision-time for the Euro Area regarding fiscal transfers and political integrity.


    Paul Mortimer-Lee, BNP Paribas
    Britain’s better than competitors’ performance in the first half of the last decade was pretty solid. For the last five years it has been anything but that. To too great a degree, out performance was based on ephemeral and unsustainable demand side forces rather than the durable supply side improvement that can be the only lasting basis of out-performance. The main contributor to the mirage was public policy. First was a monetary policy regime that has big holes in the framework; second there was a very poor implementation of the regime by the Bank of England. Finally, fiscal policy was a disaster.
    The monetary policy framework of inflation targeting pretty much takes for granted that all is well as long as inflation remains under control. The problem is that if the monetary policy inflation target is credible inflation tells us nothing about whether monetary policy is appropriate or not – the mistakes all show up elsewhere, for example in leverage, asset prices and the growth of money and credit. All these things the Bank of England largely ignored or downplayed.
    Second, even within the context of inflation targeting, monetary policy was too soft. From January 2005 to date inflation has been at or below the 2 per cent target in 19 out of 58 months: 11 of those were either at the very start of the period or at the very end. From June 2005 to June 2009, inflation was at or below target only 8 out of 48 months. Even in the UK’s exam marking system, getting the answer right 17 per cent of the time does not count as a pass mark. Real interest rates were too low for too long and the result was an unsustainable boom in house prices and domestic demand for which the BoE must take a great deal of the blame.
    An unsustainable boom in domestic demand meant that the tax revenues were flowing freely. Responsible fiscal policy would have moved the fiscal accounts into surplus and would have potted up funds for a rainy day. In fact, was what happened was that Gordon Brown did the best possible imitation of pools winner Viv Nicholson: “spend, spend, spend” was the byword. Public sector employment mushroomed and the public finances slipped into a deep structural deficit. The fiscal rules were bent; the goalposts were frequently moved to make irresponsible fiscal policy look responsible. It had to end in disaster and it has. The fiscal black hole now facing us is not mostly cyclical, it is mostly structural and is the result of the government engaging in the self delusion that credit financed boom times can last forever.
    The most surprising trend of the last decade was that central banks and governments deluded themselves that massive global imbalances and an excess of savings in emerging markets could be more or less permanently offset by creating excess demand in the west. They looked only at flow equilibrium and forgot that demand can collapse under the weight of too much debt.
    The single most surprising event – not to mention costly in dollars, lost output and jobs – was when Hank Paulson put the gun to the head of the financial system and pulled the trigger with the bullet labelled “Lehman” in the chamber.
    What will surprise others in the years to come?
    • how appalling is the UK’s economic condition
    • the degree of pain that has to be suffered to put fiscal policies back on track
    • how high will be the prospective retirement age
    • the almost inevitable sovereign debt crisis in the west
    • how low inflation goes in the next few years in the west
    • how many economies turn Japanese
    • how globally unimportant as economic powers will European countries be seen to be
    • how high oil prices go
    Ross Walker, Royal Bank of Scotland
    The combination, over the last cycle, of an expansionary fiscal stance and an environment of ultra-abundant/artificially cheap credit combined to exaggerate the UK’s economic performance (both relative to other economies and historical trends). Depictions of the economy are always prone to hyperbole, both on the upside and the downside. The UK was, is and will remain a mediocre economic performer. It is less that the UK is about to move to a drastically lower trend rate of growth, more that economic reality is reasserting itself – trend GDP is probably closer to 2 per cent than 2.75 per cent.
    The biggest surprise was obviously the scale of the financial meltdown. Economic policy frameworks, like political careers, usually end in failure – policy regimes emerge in response to previous problems and are eventually swamped by new events. The blinkered approach of narrow (CPI/RPIX) inflation targeting appears to have suffered the same fate (though some central banks remain reluctant to accept the contribution policy error made to this crisis). Greater monetary policy discretion, with a wider focus on credit and financial variables, augmented by a new ‘macro-prudential’ regulatory framework is the main challenge.
    Peter Dixon, Commerzbank
    There is a popular view in parts of Europe that the UK’s growth over the past decade was debt fuelled, that the economic debate was focused only on house prices and that the economy produces nothing of value other than financial services. There is thus an element of schadenfreude in the debate. There is certainly a danger is that the UK has squandered part of the legacy of the 1980s reforms in a consumption binge which will require dramatic cutbacks in spending/higher taxation, which will make the UK a less attractive business location and reduce the relative performance of the UK vis-à-vis the euro zone. Indeed, we have long warned that a debt fuelled surge in growth – as engaged in by households – was merely borrowing against future income and to that extent, part of the strength of the UK’s economic performance was illusory. But so long as high taxes do not act as a disincentive, the UK (i.e. London) is still a better bet to attract high quality human capital compared to other European locations which may help the trend growth rate to rebound more quickly. Unlike the late 1970s, many of the reforms needed to allow the economy to respond in a flexible manner to changed conditions have already been put in place, and although the next decade may be a slower haul than we have become used to, the situation in 10 years time may be rather brighter than it currently appears. There is a tendency to see only the downside after a major recession – look at the plethora of titles published in the US in the early-1990s or in Germany in the early-2000s about how the economic outlook will be grim forever. The only thing I will predict about the next decade is that it will probably turn out very different from any prediction I can make today.

    Chris Saunders, adviser to Vince Cable
    A huge amount of the UK’s growth in the last decade has been on the basis of increased levels of debt and booming property prices, neither of these are a recipe for sustainable growth. It is critical that the UK finds new industries if it is not to enter a malaise.

    John Muellbauer, Oxford University
    What has been the most surprising economic event or trend of the past decade? The biggest surprise has been the extent of the ramifications of the crisis that began with US sub-prime. This exposed a whole range of fundamental weaknesses in the global economy.
    What do you think will surprise others in the decade to come? Climate change will probably generate the biggest surprises and the biggest changes in policy and technology, as the flat-earthers are contradicted more and more by increasingly alarming trends in nature.
    Giles Wilkes, Centreforum
    I do NOT believe that Britain’s growth was a mirage. Once the whole 1992-2012 period is taken into account, Britain will have easily outpaced its Continental rivals. You cannot employ extra millions on a mirage, and financial services are a valuable activity, in general. Furthermore, they are only 8 per cent of the economy, and only half of that is the City. If I was to pick a future surprise, I would go with Edward Chancellor’s recent warning in the FT that a great deal of its recent activity looks Dubai-esque. China’s growth model will ultimately need to be changed, and the transition will not be easy. Predicting when or how this will emerge as a threat is even more difficult.
    The most surprising event of the last decade: I choose the election of Barack Obama, even above the financial crisis. Who would have thought that someone denied entry to the 2002 Democratic convention could lead the free world six years later?
    David B Smith, University of Derby
    Britain’s strong performance partly reflected the ‘crowding in’ benefits of the tight fiscal discipline of the 1997-2000 ‘Prudence’ period, and also the fiscal stabilisation carried out by the Conservatives after ERM withdrawal in 1992. As a small open economy, Britain also benefited from the benign global backdrop and the rapid growth of world trade. The two pluses that Britain has had have been its openness to immigration and its relatively high level of social freedom, which have made it an attractive place in which to be based. These benefits have now been outweighed by the loss of economic freedom caused by Labour’s tax, spend, and regulate policies. It was indeed an illusion.
    The most surprising event of the past decade was not the rise of China but the fact that China has tried to behave like an established ‘conservative’ power in its foreign relations. This is a relief, because normally rapidly industrialising countries throw their weight around (e.g. Imperial Germany in the 1890s or Britain in the 1850s). One possible surprise could be that China’s growth may start slowing by the end of the decade, just as Japan went from a 10 per cent growth economy in the 1960s and early 1970s to the much slower expansion of recent years. Another surprise could be a collapse in the role of the US dollar as the premier international reserve currency.
    Keith Wade, Schroders
    The UK’s economic performance did owe much to the banks and the growth of debt, but the underlying driver was an open economy with an attractive political and regulatory system. London has been a symbol of that success. Obviously changes are needed going forward, but as long as the UK maintains that environment the gains will not be illusory. Most surprising event – few foresaw the failure of the banks and none got the timing right, which certainly meets my definition of a surprise. Barack Obama becoming President was a more pleasant surprise.
    John Philpott, Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development
    It is clear that the UK was one of the countries at the heart of the Noughties bubble economy. This exaggerated our relative economic performance. However, while the consequences of the bubble bursting will diminish our relative performance and standing for some time the critique of the British version of the Anglo-Saxon model is overdone. UK performance on most of the economic fundamentals is at the very least better than a generation ago and I’m confident that we will look reasonably strong by the end of the coming decade and continue to be a major player in the G20. One of the fundamentals which has clearly improved in the past decade has been the labour market. The structural reforms implemented since the 1980s have given us a low sustainable unemployment rate and productivity growth in the private sector is also better than before. A reasonably open approach to immigration also enabled us to sustain a very high employment rate in the Noughties by international standards without a return of the ‘British disease’ of rampant wage inflation. The Noughties recession is the first in the post second world war period in which the labour market has been pure victim rather than implicated as a causal villain of the piece. Moreover, wage and hours flexibility has enabled us to limit the employment cost of the recession to only around a third of the output cost. While the lagged effect of the recession may result in further job losses before unemployment peaks (probably in summer 2010) the UK’s flexible labour also has the potential to enable a faster fall in unemployment than seen following the recessions of the 1980s and 1990s. Realising that potential, however, will depend critically on demand for labour – which makes it imperative that we get the stance of monetary and fiscal policy right during the course of the recovery.

    Karen Ward, HSBC
    We never reached a conclusion as to whether the combination of strong growth yet low inflation in the noughties was down to good policy or whether it was simply good luck – due to the disinflationary tailwinds from Asia and temporary immigration which kept a lid on inflation. Over the next few years we might really test this hypothesis. One of the potential surprises might be how persistent inflation is, even if a recovery is fairly lacklustre.

    Martin Weale, director, NIESR
    The most surprising trend before the crisis was the way in which Britain seemed to have overtaken both Germany and France in income per head. This felt too good to be true because both our neighbours seemed to be much better managed as economies. The crisis has made me think that much of the income from the financial sector arose from capital gains or from charging commissions which allowed people to realise capital gains. Since we normally make a distinction between capital gains and income, activities driven by capital gains should probably not be counted as contributing to income. But I have made no progress in quantifying this.

    James Carrick, Legal & General Investment Management
    The widening trade deficit was a clear symptom the UK was spending more than it was earning. It was ignored by policymakers because inflation was suppressed because of cheaper imports from depressed emerging economies. The surprise of the last decade was therefore that you could have strong expansion of consumer and public spending without triggering inflation. This might change over the next decade as developing economies overheat and/or revalue their exchange rates, boosting import prices. Given the UK is a small open economy it could surprisingly rebalance quicker than the US.

    Dr Oliver Marc Hartwich, The Centre for Independent Studies
    Britain’s economic model before the financial crisis was unsustainable. Its economy was more a mirage than a miracle. Built on private debt, public spending, rising house prices and strong inward migration, it simply could not last. The only surprising thing was that most people believed that it would.
    Unfortunately, the past decade has turned the United Kingdom into something more akin to the UnitedSovietRepublics of Great Britain and Northern Ireland with the government’s share of GDP just under the 70 per cent mark in some regions.
    The economic future for Britain looks grim. It would be a big surprise indeed if it managed to recover quickly. Beyond that, surprises are inherently unpredictable. Having said that, I would watch out for the early signs of sovereign debt crises around the globe.

    Samuel Brittan, Financial Times
    Not really an illusion. But growth rates per capita tend to converge in medium term.

    Dhaval Joshi, RAB Capital
    End of decade: Britain’s strong economic performance was a complete illusion. The long period of above trend growth from the mid 1990s to 2008 that Gordon Brown frequently boasted about was simply down to a plunge in the savings rate from 5 per cent in the mid 1990s to an unsustainable -9 per cent in 2007, facilitated by a borrowing boom, which gave UK consumption a massive 14 per cent boost. But if the savings rate is now headed back to 5 per cent, the outlook for the UK economy is a prolonged chill.
    The Noughties defining economic characteristic was the sequence of three massive borrowing booms and two intervening busts in the space of just one decade – first, corporates (dot com boom), then households (housing boom) and now governments.
    The decade’s mantra was “borrow and spend”; next decade’s might be “save and reduce debt”. So the surprise will be about how low, and how persistently low the numbers are: for growth, inflation, interest rates, and investment returns.

    Pierre Cailleteau, Moody’s
    A material part of Britain’s economic over-performance has been related to higher leverage. However, the underlying story based on the very high ability to allocate resources flexibly in the economy is probably robust.
    One surprising trend has been the fragility of the financial construct – but another, more reassuring surprising trend, has been the exceptional balance-sheet flexibility of governments in the midst of the crisis.
    The surprise, good or bad, in the next decade will come from the ability of advanced societies to cope with lower growth and rethink the social contract between individuals and the state. That will be a test of cohesiveness and fortitude.

    John Hawksworth, PricewaterhouseCoopers
    I think some of the UK’s relative success was solidly based, for example in terms of our relatively flexible labour market and strong clusters of expertise in financial and business/creative services. But apparent success was exaggerated by high levels of indebtedness and an illusion of increased wealth due to rising house prices. UK may well underperform other major economies in the next decade due to the need to pay back public and private debt.
    The most surprising event has been the speed of the rise of the China and other emerging economies. The fact that China is now the second most important economy in the world on many measures would not have been predicted by many back in 1999.
    It may not be all that surprising, but I think there is a good chance that India will overtake China as the fastest-growing large economy by the second half of the next decade and will be seen as increasingly important in political and business circles as a result.

    Richard Jeffrey, Cazenove Capital
    The illusion from which we have suffered over much of the last decade is that we could determine the requisite policy by reference to one number: inflation. From a relatively balanced position in 1997, this has taken us into an unsustainable position characterised by a high level of excess demand. A policy path that ignored the fact that, for most of the period, domestically generated inflation was running at almost twice the rate of the inflation target, was accommodated by official estimates of the trend growth rate that were substantially too high. The result was a steady rise in the external imbalance; in other words, we spent much of the last decade accommodating demand overheating. Meanwhile, watching public sector finances has been akin to watching a train crash in slow motion. The irony is that although we now find ourselves saddled by huge and still rising levels of debt and there is evidence that we have done little to contain excess demand, the achieved level of GDP growth has been comparatively unexciting – just 2.6 per cent per annum between 1999 and 2008 and only 2.2 per cent between 2004 and 2008. Meanwhile, as the FT has pointed out recently, the productive base of the economy has become significantly narrower.
    The surprise, looking ahead, is a negative one: that it will take at least the first half of the next decade to rectify the problems that have built up over the past 10 years. In essence, the borrowing that took place in the period leading up to the financial crisis and recession was ‘borrowing’ from future growth; unfortunately, the cost of servicing that borrowing will prove to be exceptionally high.

    Ruth Lea, economic adviser, Arbuthnot Banking Group
    Britain’s relative strong economic performance was to some extent an illusion – bolstered by unsustainable public spending increases, a credit binge and a housing boom. The economy will pay the price for the next decade. Large-scale immigration masked the poor productivity performance. The most surprising “event” was the continuing powering ahead of China and, to a lesser extent, India – though some will not have been so surprised. Concerning the decade to come, the US’s relative position will probably weaken further – but whether this will surprise people I don’t know. We are witnessing the shifting of the tectonic plates of the global economy.

    Howard Archer, IHS Global Insight
    I am not sure I would call it an illusion. But it was certainly built on shaky foundations. The strong economic performance was far too reliant on the UK financial services sector. The dependence was two-fold. First, the sector oversaw a decade of very loose credit conditions, helping consumer spending growth to outpace real household disposable income growth in the second half of the decade. This helped to underpin rising housing equity, soaring consumer debt levels and a steady fall in household savings rate, hardly a sustainable model.
    One of the most surprising UK economic events of the past decade was the length and extent of the housing market upturn.
    I would love to think that the surprise for the next decade is that the UK economy rebalances quickly and performs way above current expectations – but I have my doubts.

    Colin Ellis, Daiwa Securities
    I don’t think the macroeconomic performance was an illusion – low inflation and steady GDP growth was genuine, what we missed were the problems building up as leverage climbed in the banking sector (leading to a repricing of risk etc). I still think trend growth will be 2.5 per cent and inflation can be kept close to target once we get through all this (though obviously getting through it will take some time). The most surprising economic event of the past decade has to be the biggest global recession in most people’s lifetimes – though for a single shocking day, Lehman’s collapse will still take some beating, I will remember that for the rest of my life. I think when people look back at us in the future, they will wonder why, if policymakers were warning about the mis-pricing of risk and over-leverage in the years before the crisis hit, we didn’t do anything about it before it blew up in our faces.

    Stewart Robertson, Aviva Investors
    Not an illusion, but perhaps a bit bubbly. Most surprising? If you had said 2 or 3 years ago that we would have 0.5 per cent base rates and a 12 per cent of GDP budget deficit, (and heading to 80 per cent to 100 per cent debt to GDP) you’d have been laughed at. Surprise to come? Who knows! Perhaps that new jobs will eventually be created and that we grow again. Perhaps that interest rates are lower for longer. A nation leaving the Eurozone? I don’t think the full impact of the growing importance of Asia on the world stage has yet been appreciated. Back in the 1200-1500 period, Asia is estimated to have accounted for up to 75 per cent of world GDP. Probably heading back that way, but it will take more than a decade!

    Ian Mccafferty, CBI
    The “nice” decade was driven by a combination of the emergence as global consumers of a significant part of the world’s population and disinflationary conditions allowing a long period of easy money. To that extent, it was not illusory, though it will probably turn out to have been unique, in that the confluence of factors is unlikely to re-emerge so strongly in the foreseeable future. The UK used this period to generate rapid growth in an industry in which it has a clear global comparative advantage – financial services – providing benefit to both GDP and the public finances over the period. With the end of the nice decade, and the credit crunch, not all of those gains have proven sustainable, but the benefits to the economy as a whole were real.
    In terms of surprises: event – the sheer pace of the contraction in world trade in the six months following the Lehmans collapse; trend – the marked change in the nature of the (private sector) labour market in the UK that has resulted from the success in stabilising and controlling of inflation under an independent central bank.
    Next decade: the success with which the UK will develop new industries and technologies as sources of growth to rebalance its areas of comparative advantage. We may be a mature economy, but we have a good number of existing and emerging success stories unrelated to financial services, which will help drive growth over the coming decade.

    Philip Booth, Institute of Economic Affairs
    In the mid-later part of the decade, the strong economic performance was sustained by a transfer of resources into the public sector (the impact of which on the private sector was lagged) and by loose monetary policy. In that sense, the strong performance was an illusion. The most surprising trend has perhaps been the way in which real wages responded to the crash (by falling in many sectors) this has limited the impact of the crash on unemployment.

    Tony Dolphin, Institute for Public Policy Research
    It was an illusion because it was built on an unsustainable accumulation of household debt. The best that could have happened was that debt stopped increasing (relative to incomes/GDP) and our economic performance reverted to mundane. The worst that could happen … well it has happened. There have been lots of surprises in the last 10 years. Among the most striking have been the extent to which China (and other economies) have been prepared to transfer capital to the west, particularly to the US, given the almost inevitability that it will earn poor/negative returns and the fact we managed to squeeze two major asset price bubbles and busts into one decade – a trend and an occurrence that were not unrelated.
    Since everyone seems now to be convinced that China is going to grow at an annual rate of 8-10 per cent for the next decade (at least) and has – much to Gordon Brown’s envy no doubt – really abolished the economic cycle, a big surprise in the decade to come would be a period of weak growth in China. I can’t think why this should happen, but then it would not be a surprise if I could.

    Phil Thornton, Clarity Economics
    Strong UK growth was built on debt, both private and public, and excessively on one sector – financial services. The lack of long-term sustainable sources of wealth generation left it vulnerable to a shock, so that sense it was illusory and much of that wealth has gone for good.
    Big surprise? The consensus around the Great Moderation as being the end of economic history in some way. The lack of serious debate – with the honourable exceptions of Bill White at BIS and Andrew Smithers – perhaps allowed policymakers to ignore the threats of a long tail/black swan event for too long. Too much consensus can be bad for economic health.

    Geoffrey Dicks, Novus Capital Markets
    Getting inflation down and keeping it down was not an illusion. To the extent that this enabled the economy to grow steadily for 17-odd years, this was no illusion either. I may still be in denial myself over the events of the last two years but I don’t think there was anything inevitable about what happened as a result of the credit crunch (which I still think was visited on us by the US rather than home-grown.
    The most surprising event (apart from the spectacular way it ended) was that the UK grew for those 17-odd years – if anyone had stood up in 1992 and said that this would happen, they would have been laughed out of court. Maybe we are where we were in 1992 all over again and another decade of growth is about to start.
    The least surprising event is that hubris eventually is visited on corporate bosses who think they can do nothing wrong and who brook no criticism – there are countless examples of this throughout corporate history.

    Douglas McWilliams, chief executive, CEBR
    The Treasury has been catastrophically overoptimistic about long term tax revenues based on bizarre growth extrapolations – for example assuming that east European immigrants would continue to flood in at the pace that they did when admitted to the EU and on assuming a permanent bull market. CEBR has argued for many years that the underlying rate of productivity growth in the UK was well below 2 per cent and that spending growth needed to be based on cautious assumptions.
    I was personally most surprised by the persistence of the financial boom beyond about 2005 – the last two years of this made the scale of the necessary correction much bigger than would otherwise have been the case. I was also surprised by the fact that the bankers decided suddenly not to lend to each other. Finally, I should not have been, but was surprised that globalization had left much more inventory in the world economy than I had previously expected, which made the scale of the 2008/09 worldwide inventory correction much bigger than had previously seemed likely.
    I suspect that many people in the decades to come will be surprised by how little pain (except for the providers of services) will result from public sector cutbacks – many of the things cut back will turn out not to have been necessary in the first place.
    Jonathan Haskel, Imperial College Business School
    In hindsight, the banking crisis, since no-one saw it coming (except Nouriel Roubini). strong performance only very partly an illusion since in practice financial services accounts for less of GDP then people think, especially since it was so badly mis-measured for most of the period.

    Michael Dicks, Barclays Wealth
    Perhaps two-thirds illusion and one-third reality? The most surprising trend is China’s performance – and the fact that almost everyone takes it as a given, unquestioningly. So, perhaps it will also be the big surprise in the next decade too? So might the presumption be that volatility will remain fairly low. Usually a bout of economic volatility, as has happened in recent years, sparks a bout of political volatility – and the resultant tensions create new uncertainties and costs.

    George Buckley, Deutsche Bank
    The reason that the Bank of England was able to grow the economy at such strong rates without generating inflation over the past decade (1997-2007) was because of goods price deflation. With many goods being imported, there was little the BoE could do to influence goods prices. So in order to achieve overall inflation at 2 per cent it had to run the domestic economy more quickly than otherwise to raise domestically generated inflation. This then offset goods price deflation to keep overall inflation at 2 per cent.
    Now goods prices are rising again. When the negative impact of high levels of spare capacity eventually wanes, in order to produce overall inflation of 2 per cent in the future we will need to see a less favourable combination of interest rates and economic growth. In other words, the next decade is payback for a period of excessive growth over the past 10 years.

    Ray Barrell, NIESR
    A boom fuelled by loose fiscal policy and excessive consumer borrowing financed by a housing market bubble induced strong growth in the UK for most of the last decade. However, there is evidence that increased levels of training and education have raised our growth rate by a quarter to a half a per cent as compared to our European neighbours. The most unexpected event, apart form the crisis, was the scale of New Member States migration to the UK. The number expected to leave was OK, it was just that we did not expect to be the only destination. This helped stave off the inflationary consequences of loose fiscal policy and excessive borrowing.

    Andrew Hilton, Centre for the Study of Financial Innovation
    The tragedy of this crisis for the UK is that it has given open markets, competition and limited government a bad name. We had it broadly right – though I would still like to smack DeAnne Julius for convincing us all that manufacturing is not “special”. Maybe there was some truth in what she (and Bob Lawrence) wrote – but “tradeables” are special. And we have ignored them.

    Martin Gahbauer, Nationwide Building Society
    There is no hiding the fact that Britain’s economic expansion during this decade has depended at least in part on a large expansion of credit to households and a structural increase in public sector borrowing that the markets were willing to tolerate and finance at low interest rates. These trends were pushed to the limit and the next few years will be pay back time.

    Nick Bosanquet, Reform
    Britain’s growth performance mainly due to debt financed boom and to the rise in public spending.
    Most surprising economic event of last decade has been rise in public expenditure – from £418.8bn in 1997-98 to £627.8bn in 2008-09 a rise of 49.9 per cent from 38.2 per cent to 43.8 per cent of GDP without thorough reform. Record very different from Australian Labour and Clinton administration in US ... UK has had the Last Hurrah of tartan Stalinism.
    NHS outcomes could have been improved for £30bn less by more use of competition and choice.
    Surprise will be low level of UK growth over next decade. Government and household spending will not be driving GDP growth as up to 2008 and much investment spending will be offshore.

    Nick Barr, London School of Economics
    At the start of the decade raising retirement age was not a suitable subject for polite society, and even student loans, though they had been in place for 10 years, were regarded as rather dodgy. Today retirement age is part of policy discussion and, though tuition fees remain controversial, some sort of contribution by graduates is taken for granted.
    By the 2020, people will be surprised that raising retirement age and charging graduate contributions were ever controversial.

    Brian Hilliard, Societe Generale
    It was certainly exaggerated by the growth of financial assets as a share of GDP but much of the growth was a gift from globalisation which allowed the BoE to run relatively loose monetary policy.
    There can only be one choice for the surprise – the shock into near Depression – as we all under-estimated the mis-pricing of risk and the insidious geographical dispersal of those risks around the globe.
    The coming surprise is likely to be the long duration of slow growth in the west after the initial post-recession bounce
    Stephen King, HSBC
    Trend growth in the UK will be lower, there will be a persistent fiscal squeeze, there will be no old-fashioned “crowding-in” benefits and we’ll be wondering what on earth happened. We are facing a period of political introspection triggered by a failure to understand properly the ultimate causes of the crisis.

    Peter Spencer, Ernst & Young Item Club
    To the extent that this was based upon international borrowing it artificially propped up UK living standards – these would otherwise have come under pressure from competition from the East. However, I believe that the UK’s supply side performance, and in particular the flexibility of the labour market was impressive. Inflation and unemployment remained remarkably low, and are likely to remain so going into the next decade.
    The seizure of markets in the credit crunch. It was obvious to many people that the imbalances and the expansion were unsustainable. I think most of us thought in terms of a gradual rebalancing as the debts built up and house prices became unaffordable and so on, gradually applying the brakes. We also saw a fall in the dollar as part of a general adjustment. Economists usually expect things to turn round gradually, moving in a cyclical way. However, this time the international banking markets simply froze. So what we got was more like a car crash.
    Provided that the global imbalances start to unwind we will see a return to the low volatility of the ‘Great Moderation’. That may seem surprising but it is actually an easy call. That is because this is the normal state of affairs – the high volatility of the 1960, 1970s and 1980s was an aberration caused by high rates of inflation. Just as Milton Friedman predicted in his 1977 Nobel acceptance speech, the low volatility of the early post-war years returned as inflation came down. The only problem was that financial deregulation and low volatility led borrowers and lenders to expand balance sheets excessively. With inflation remaining very low, we only have to resist that temptation and all will be well. Future econometricians will then see the recent crisis as a couple of massive negative inflation and output shocks (in Q3 and Q4 2008) in an otherwise benign macroeconomic environment.

    Andrew Scott, London Business School
    Britain has at the top end a skilled and flexible workforce. Combine that with low tax and a light regulatory environment and you get economic success. Skilled and flexible workers can shift out of finance into other areas and don’t have to stay in finance. To that degree there was nothing illusory about Britain’s relatively strong economic performance. However with an increase in global regulation the products the UK financial sector produces will be less in demand and with low taxes and a light regulatory touch ceasing to be such an attractor there will need to be a period of transition whilst the financial sector grows more slowly and resources shift into other parts of the UK economy. The more skilled and flexible these workers are the more swiftly that transition will occur


    John Van Reenen, Centre for Economic Performance, LSE
    I think that people have been too negative about the post 1997 period under the current doom and gloom. There was a long period of sustained growth and low unemployment. This was underpinned by productivity growth that was strong over this period relative to other main OECD nations, keeping up with the US productivity acceleration and addressing the UK’s long-run productivity gap. And this all remains true if you drop finance from the picture.
    Britain enjoyed a massive increase in the proportion of young people going to college, building our human capital and a policy framework that broadly kept to open and flexible markets (bolstered by tougher measures to improve product marker competition).
    At the beginning of the decade as the Internet bubble burst, we thought the income distribution might stabilize in the US and UK. In fact, the proportion of income going to the very rich (e.g. top 1 per cent) increased tremendously over the last decade, even as inequality in the bottom 50 per cent of the distribution stabilized or even narrowed. In many other countries where inequality had not risen in the 1980s (e.g. Scandinavia and Germany) inequality has also been rising.

    Melanie Baker, Morgan Stanley
    I don’t think it was an illusion, but low volatility in growth and inflation meant that the ground for a crisis was fertile. For example, households likely took on more debt thinking that their incomes were now less volatile and businesses likely took on higher levels of leverage that they otherwise would have done.

    Peter Warburton, Economic Perspectives
    Sadly, most of it was illusion, based on increased economic leverage and an accompanying erosion of the national saving rate. The surprise was the length of time it took for the reckless over-expansion of credit to blow up economic performance and the breathtaking audacity of the leading central banks in prolonging the flight from economic reason. In the coming decade, the key surprise will be the return of a high single-digits global inflation rate and the sickening realization that we have to fight this dragon all over again.

    Gerard Lyons, Standard Chartered
    The lesson of the last decade was not that the UK’s strong growth was an illusion. The lesson was to learn the lessons of previous cycles: the Maudling Boom, the Barber Boom, the Lawson Boom – and now the Brown Boom. All these booms were followed by busts because the authorities were unable to curb excess growth in credit and debt.
    One implication of the crisis for the UK – as for the world – is the need to ensure balanced and sustained growth. External deficits matter and large ones cannot be sustained.
    Not sure about the most surprising but the most significant has been the emergence of China. It is now a powerful economic force.
    The world economy boomed in the last decade and we should not forget that. The world economy grew in size from $31,500bn to $61,000bn.
    Surprise in the decade to come? An arc of growth from China to India and then on to Africa, as the centre of global manufacturing shifts to regions with large and growing labour forces, and to economies rich in resources. As I touched on above, the first few decades of this century could be a super growth cycle for the world economy.
    Howard Davies, London School of Economics
    Much of Britain’s superior performance was attributable to rapid growth in household debt, which could not go on. There was no growth miracle. Productivity growth was unexceptional, and we have not closed the output per hour gap with the US, France and Germany.
    One major surprise (to me) has been the lack of convergence within the euro area, with marked shifts in competitiveness between members, whose consequences are now being seen in the crises in Greece (and probably Portugal shortly)
    If I knew what the next surprises would be, they wouldn’t be surprises.

    Robert Barrie, Credit Suisse
    I’m not sure it was an illusion. The economy really was very stable. The problem was that money, credit and asset prices weren’t very stable. It would be good to think that the authorities have learned to take the latter more seriously as a result of recent experience – but beyond the calls for a new macro prudential instrument – I’m not sure that’s the case.
    Sushil Wadhwani, Wadhwani Asset Management
    Some of the growth in the UK earlier in this decade looks to have been unsustainable, and part of a bubble. Over the past decade, I was astonished that policymakers were so slow to recognise the bubble and do something about it. Indeed, some policymakers were still preaching the merits of securitisation as late as the autumn of 2007 and were telling us that the global banking system was well capitalised as late as January 2008.

    Henrik Braconnier, OECD
    This is a difficult question. Many other economies in the OECD area also seems to have been affected by a similar “boom and bust”, raising doubts about the long-term potential (think of the car industry, property markets and public finances in general). But these tendencies were a bit more pronounced in the UK due to the large financial sector and a weaker initial structural fiscal position.
    The most surprising development must be the inability of the global financial system to handle the financial stress initiated in (largely) US housing markets. This rightly has raised concerns about financial markets stability and changed the game for economic policy (especially monetary and macroprudential policy). A second surprise was the developing world’s resilience (especially China) in the face of the crisis.
    Looking forward it is not unlikely that things in terms of expectations on economic policy will revert surprisingly quickly back to normal (just look at the banking sector). It means that policy makers need to address underlying structural issues (Fiscal policy, macroprudential, etc) as quickly as possible.

    Diane Coyle, Enlightenment Economics
    It wasn’t illusory. The era of liberalisation did increase productivity outside financial services, and even in finance, and high immigration boosted growth as well. It would be regrettable if the backlash against finance – actually extensively but badly regulated – led to a reversal of some of the flexibility so hard won in the UK economy.
    The surprises come in an appreciation of what the shape of the economy actually is. The role of finance has been exaggerated – its share of GDP was somewhat higher in the UK than in France or Germany but not massively so. Likewise, the demise of manufacturing is hugely overstated. The UK has highly productive manufacturers in many areas of technology, although seriously hampered by a shortage of suitably skilled UK graduates. The creative sector is bigger than the financial and exports very successfully. I hope we will be surprised by how well some of the unsung heroes can do in the decade ahead, if we stop obsessing about the City.
    Alan Budd, Queen’s College Oxford
    I don’t think that our strong performance was an illusion. The credit crisis was the most surprising event (to me, at any rate). I think that the future event that surprises others will also surprise me.

    Lucrezia Reichlin, London Business School
    Probably yes, but this does not mean that the UK will do worse than other developed economies in the future. The success of the Chinese model. That the “lessons from the great crisis of 2008’’.

    Trevor Williams, Lloyds TSB
    Big surprise of the last decade was that the UK grew for 16 years uninterrupted. That was bound to end, and it was not all debt. It took a global recession and a global financial crisis to end it. Debt played a part in the last decade, but it not just abut that; the UK played to its strengths, and became more flexible as a result. The challenge for the next decade is to one again reinvent itself. A big change would be if the UK became more export oriented after a decade of domestically driven growth. It would also mean that it has proved successful in meeting the challenge posed by the coming decade, of more open markets and even greater globalisation than seen so far.

    Gary Styles, Hometrack
    It now looks likely that the UK’s underlying performance in the last decade is not dissimilar to previous periods and although average growth has been slightly higher in recent periods, the very long term trends have hardly changed. If anything the structural issues we faced in the early 1990’s are even more pertinent as over reliance on consumer spending growth and personal borrowing remain critical issues. The huge trend decline in our manufacturing, production and export industries only add more complications to any economic remedy for poor trend economic growth.
    Most surprising event: Collapse of HBOS and Lehman’s. This has shattered the confidence of consumers, bankers and policymakers alike. We have entered a new world where accepted norms, implicit assumptions and expectations have changed permanently. The genie cannot be put back into the bottle.
    What will surprise in the decade to come: How little politicians and policymakers can effectively achieve when economic fundamentals and global markets are against them.

    Ian Plenderleith, former Bank of England head of markets
    I don’t subscribe to the view that the UK’s performance over the past decade was a flash in the pan: the capacities that drove it are still in place, and much less damaged by this recession than by previous ones.
    Biggest surprise of the past decade: two of them – (i) that markets can fail (ie suddenly cease to function) – not new, but we had forgotten that it can happen; and (ii) the market’s failure to price risk properly.
    Surprise for the next decade: the next bubble (maybe in the bond market) and the realization that, despite best present intentions, we do not have any really effective instruments to deflate bubbles in advance. Macro-prudential management is one of the big challenges for policy-makers over the next several years.
    David Blanchflower, former MPC member
    I wouldn’t argue it was an illusion. The UK benefited from having a large financial sector which gave it benefits but then exposed it to greater risk in the face of a financial shock. The optimal size and structure of the financial system, and the optimal amount of regulation and who does it is yet to be determined. But inflation targeting with a single target of the CPI failed and needs to be replaced. Having unemployment as a specific goal of macroeconomic policy also seems important. Unemployment hurts more than inflation.
    Andrew Simms, policy director, New Economics Foundation
    To a degree all major developed economies have been living beyond there means, both economically and environmentally. A reckoning was inevitable, sooner or later. In one sense we are lucky that the banking system went into crisis before the ecosystems upon which the economy ultimately depends. The taxpayer was there to bail out the banks, whereas nature doesn’t do bail-outs. So, as part of the Anglo-Saxon club that privileges the finance sector, relatively, to a larger degree, Britain ‘s performance was merely more illusory than others. Having clearly warned, in some detail, of both the nature and scale of the banking crisis in our 2003 book, The Real World Economic Outlook, we cannot, however, say that the banking crisis was a ‘surprising economic event.’
    Perhaps the most surprising recent trend in developed economies is the speed with which many people have taken the opportunity of the recession to redefine their lives and goals. Given the opportunity of working less and having more time, people are taking it and enjoying the consequences. For example, in Utah, in the US, where the local municipality put people on a shorter working week, they found that absenteeism went down, morale went up, and they achieved a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. This perhaps is the future: less work, more fun, less carbon.
    Julian LeGrand, London School of Economics
    It is not an illusion that Britain’s GNP increased by 50 per cent since 1997. Even in the worst case scenarios, this recession will not put a major dent in that.
    Lena Komileva, Tullet Prebon
    I guess the most surprising economic trend of the past decade has been the extent to which wholesale market finance has become a major driver of the global economic cycle, alongside traditional bank credit. It’s not surprising that this crisis began with the breakdown of capital and money markets and it is no surprise that signs of the crisis ending emerged with a record-volume capital markets recovery. Yet still, the disrupted link between capital market liquidity and borrowers in the real economy is having an effect on unemployment, house prices, pension values and many other factors affecting everyday life. With hindsight, quantitative monetary policies ought to have been employed as a symmetric policy tool during both booms and busts throughout the past decade.
    Jonathan Loynes, Capital Economics
    The UK’s strong economic performance over the last decade or so was certainly flattered by the unsustainable buoyancy of the City and the public sector, but it was not entirely an illusion. The economy is in a much better structural shape than it was several decades ago, with a more flexible labour market and a strong international position in certain fast-growing business sectors. So we are not heading back to the 1970s. Still, the UK may well continue to lag behind its major competitors over the next year or so.
    The most surprising event of the last decade must surely have been the deepest global recession in modern history. Even those who warned of the dangers, including Capital Economics, were surprised by the severity of the downturn and the associated crisis in the financial sector. Others believed that boom and bust had been eliminated!
    In the decade to come, the biggest surprise might be just how rapidly the global economy bounces back – but I doubt it. I think it is more likely to be just how long the legacy lasts.
    Bridget Rosewell, Volterra
    To the extent that it was bought with taxation and debt (both public and private) it was indeed an illusion which has come home to rood. The most surprising economic event was the willingness of the US to engage in quasi public ownership of financial institutions. In the decade to come, many may be surprised by the resilience of capitalism and its capacity to withstand shocks.
    Ben Broadbent, Goldman Sachs
    It was not an illusion – but then the relative strength wasn’t that marked either. Per capita GDP has been slowly converging with that in other parts of Europe for the past 25-30 years and that gap didn’t close any faster over the last decade than over the previous decade. The surprising event has been (until recently) the strength of the currency, although that – we believe – was in part the result of the dramatic growth in government consumption. I think the decade to come – or at least the first few years of it – will look a bit like the mid-1990s. A contraction in the public sector, outperformance by those bits of the economy sensitive to the exchange rate and reasonably good rates of economic growth overall. Otherwise, most of the surprises (one hopes) will be outside the UK, and probably outside the developed world altogether.
    Brian Coulton, Fitch Ratings
    UK growth was undoubtedly ‘pumped up’ by the global credit boom in the middle decade. You need look no further than the speed with which household savings have risen through the recession to understand that prior trends in consumption – fuelled by house price gains – were unsustainable. But despite these cyclical excesses there have also been long term fundamental improvements in the flexibility of the economy and in the monetary policy framework since the 1970s and 1980s which should ultimately render the economy more robust and resilient over the medium term.
    One of the more surprising developments through this recession has been the mild increase in unemployment – whether this is truly a reflection of greater labour market flexibility or it is just a matter of time before unemployment catches up with the economy will be very interesting to see.
    Michael Saunders, Citi
    The UK did have genuine economic advantages at the start of the decade: relative strength in knowledge intensive services, flexible labour markets, good credit availability, sound fiscal position and low tax rates, plus openness to foreign direct investment. These made the UK the country of choice for global firms and global talent, leading to a period of strong productivity growth and higher potential growth. But policymakers tolerated and encouraged by their actions a massive surge in private and public debt and spending that has now left the economy enfeebled. Moreover, the UK’s advantages in labour markets, market openness, favourable tax system, and public finances are now being lost through policy neglect and pre election political gestures. It will take many many years of hard work and hard policy choices if the UK is to regain its top tier global rank of the middle of the decade.
    Peter Westaway, Nomura
    No, I don’t think this was an illusion. Even after the financial crisis, financial services will continue to play a significant role in the growth and development of the UK as a financial centre, even after Mr Darling’s “supertax”. And it is a fallacy to characterise UK growth as reliant on booming consumer spending. Certainly the share of domestic demand has increased in the last decade, but the exchange rate has been strong as a consequence and net trade and manufacturing has suffered. Looking forward, the economy will rebalance, but this won’t mean that medium-term growth is slower. Rather, UK growth will continue to be largely determined by continuing productivity improvements spurred on by an increasingly flexible labour and product markets; the benign performance of the labour market during this downturn provides evidence of this.
    Perhaps the most surprising event of the last decade is how a consensus could exist on the unsustainability of house prices (residential and commercial) in the UK but most notably the US, and this could sit alongside a financial system which could collapse once same house prices returned towards those fundamentals.
    Another surprise is the return of financial economics and economics of banking. For a while, macroeconomics had been dominated by a view that interest rates (possibly plus or minus a spread) contained all the relevant information about monetary conditions and the world could be explained by efficient markets and optimising agents. We all knew that view was too simplistic but no-one said it very loudly. Now we all know different. Danger going forward is that the pendulum swings too far the other way and economist return to ad-hoc theorising.
    New surprises? Could this be the lost decade for the world economy? Despite our best attempts, we really don’t have an accurate idea on how powerful deleveraging forces are. If this downside risk were to materialise, and if we reach a point where the ability or willingness of governments to loosen fiscal policy simply reaches its limits, then the world could remain at or near the zero interest rate bound for much longer than is currently priced in.
    The other surprise would be a world where a new system of macroprudential surveillance is agreed upon and the credit cycle is abolished for ever. This is what policymakers are striving towards. But previous generations have tried and failed before to tame the forces of optimism and pessimism. Perhaps this time, we’ll get it right!?
    Charles Goodhart, former MPC member
    Less than most now think (the UK will recover better than eurozone or Japan). What has been the most surprising economic event or trend of the past decade? The rise in income inequality. What do you think will surprise others in the decade to come? Possibly a fall in income inequality?
    Philip Shaw, Investec
    Yes. At least it was certainly flattered by the increase in public expenditure and by strong consumer spending growth over most of the period.
    The way that supposedly well capitalised financial institutions were ravaged by the credit crisis.
    Not sure. More small banks and building societies opening and some return to “traditional” banking? A waning of the “west’s” economic power being mirrored in their relative political decline?
    Danny Gabay, Fathom Consulting
    That is a very good but difficult set of questions. We would have to say that far more of the past decade’s performance now looks like luck or illusion than genuine improvement – even our much vaunted flexible labour market appears o be more spin than reality. We still believe that an independent inflation-targeting central bank is the right institution for economic management. But its practise has been a let down. In particular, the inability to see the linkages between asset markets, debt and the economy was as big a policy error as the UK has endured over the past century. That said, compared to the medium term fiscal ‘rules’, monetary policy has been a real success. And as for the push for stronger productivity growth ...
    The most surprising trend over the past decade must be China’s emergence, as well as India and Brazil. A close second must be the build up of household debt alongside housing market bubbles, and the way it was allowed to happen, again.
    In the decade to come we may find out whether China’s emergence is for real or yet another illusion – though Japan’s and the Asian miracle took four decades to unravel. Meanwhile British consumers will probably spend a good deal of the first half of the decade paying back the debts they accumulated during the previous one, against a background of persistent unemployment. But hopefully, they will spend the second half living within the means afforded by the country’s actual as opposed to its imagined trend rate of growth, same goes for the government.
    Finally, a wish/hope. We hope that the next decade does not bring forth yet another ‘new new’ idea. We could do with some old fashioned, boring but affordable growth.
    An economic adviser to the Conservative Party
    To a very large degree, especially since about 2003. The most surprising thing was that everyone believed the myth for so long when in retrospect so many dials were flashing red. In the decade to come people will be surprised at how persistent the legacy of the crisis remains.
    James Knightley, ING
    UK trend growth has been around 3 per cent, but I think we will see it being closer to 2 per cent for the next decade for the reasons mention above in Q1
    For me one of the most surprising has been the failure of emerging markets to significantly ramp up their domestic demand (or certainly not as much as I had thought possible). Maybe this decade will see that happen.
    Mark Cliffe, chief economist, ING
    The biggest surprise of the decade was the boom and bust in structured credit, which precipitated the biggest financial crisis since the Great Depression. Our thinking about economic theory, practice and policy has been transformed as a result. Among many things that have been overturned is the naïve faith in efficient markets and the notion that risk can be managed.
    On possible surprises for the coming decade, the structural damage in the wake of the financial crisis, coupled with excessively cautious regulation presents obvious downside risks. More positive surprises could be:
    1) Outperformance by the US economy
    2) Major technological breakthroughs in green technology and health care may spur unexpectedly strong growth later in the coming decade
    3) Cyclical upswing and the use of green taxes, especially in the US, might lead to unexpectedly rapid falls in budget deficits
    4) Financial services grow unexpectedly rapidly, especially in the emerging world
    Sir John Gieve, chairman Vocalink and former deputy governor of the Bank of England
    I think the UK’s performance genuinely was pretty good relative to the US, Japan and EU over the last decade and, despite the hits of the last two years, it is well placed to do relatively well in the next decade too. Obviously the biggest surprise was the financial collapse of 2007-09 and the way that the credit markets which had been designed to hedge risk had created powerful new channels of contagion in a downswing.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b05bf79c-f...44feab49a.html
    Far from Louis' posting nonsense, Louis seems to be right on top of things and rather aware of the verdict of the cream of British economists and captains of industry.


    Quote Originally Posted by EMFM
    Louis didn't actually show data that was contrary to the general perception. In my opinion he abused the statistics to try and prove a point that was tenuous at best, once outside factors are taken into account.
    Which data do you have in mind? I'll be happy to go over it again.

    I myself am under the solid impression that I've substantiated every claim I've made in this thread with numbers and sources.
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  2. #302
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Which data do you have in mind? I'll be happy to go over it again.
    Specifically the British defence budget, and the supposed "myth" of Conservatives being better for defence than Labour. While I would argue that neither has been especially good for defence, the statistics don't show Labour doing better.

    I myself am under the solid impression that I've substantiated every claim I've made in this thread with numbers and sources.
    Indeed. The problem, in my opinion, was in how you used them.

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Specifically the British defence budget, and the supposed "myth" of Conservatives being better for defence than Labour. While I would argue that neither has been especially good for defence, the statistics don't show Labour doing better.
    It is not possible to say how the Conservatives would've handled the defense budget in the past twelve years.

    It is possible to go over the numbers of what Labour and Tory governments have spend on defense in the past decades. These numbers show that the past two Tory governments have halved the defense budget, that the majority of this decrease happened before the end of the Cold War, and that the past two Labour governments have overseen the biggest defense spending increase since the Second World War.

    Links in this post: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=212


    The problem remains that Labour underfunded the military for all the tasks it set for it, at least for what the British public expects*. The UK defense budget, despite the massive increase, was not sufficient to wage two high-intensity conflicts and maintain its core missions.


    ('Best for defense' is a matter of political preference. If I were a British taxpayer, I'd demand the defense budget be brought down to the level of Canada or Germany. There are better destinations for these billions of pounds than Blairite warmongering.)


    *But: sometimes these expectations are unreasonable. It is understandable that any military casualty would be the subject of close public scrutiny. But is it reasonable to spend another billion pounds for ten less casualties, when this same billion could save a thousand lives if spend on healthcare instead of yet more helicopter support?
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    Member Member Boohugh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    No, your/mine link unequivocally shows that, until the current international crisis broke out, Labour managed to decrease debt as percentage of GDP.
    Umm...those figures you posted show that debt as a percentage of GDP has been increasing since 2001, well before the current international crisis broke out...so they only decided to stay prudent until they got elected for a second time after which they went on a spending binge.

    Alternatively, you could view it as them benefitting from the previous Conservative economic policies, allowing them to reduce debt as a % if GDP for a few years, until their own economic policies started to have an effect and things went wrong from there...

    It is not possible to say how the Conservatives would've handled the defense budget in the past twelve years.

    It is possible to go over the numbers of what Labour and Tory governments have spend on defense in the past decades. These numbers show that the past two Tory governments have halved the defense budget, that the majority of this decrease happened before the end of the Cold War, and that the past two Labour governments have overseen the biggest defense spending increase since the Second World War.
    Alternatively, you can look at the fact the previous Conservative government ordered almost all the Navy's new ships and a fair number of the RAF's new aircraft, they just weren't around long enough to see them delivered, whereas Labour hasn't bothered to even fulfil the ordering requirements set out in it's own Strategic Defence Review.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post

    I myself am under the solid impression that I've substantiated every claim I've made in this thread with numbers and sources.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    1997 815.881 43.76
    1998 865.71 40.87
    1999 911.945 38.84
    2000 958.931 33.32
    2001 1003.3 32.06
    2002 1055.79 33.06
    2003 1118.24 34.00
    2004 1184.3 35.62
    2005 1233.98 37.40
    2006 1303.92 38.41
    2007 1343.75 44.80
    2008 1419.55 43.24
    2009 1439 55.20

    oh yes, you have indeed, your figures show the deficit being 43.76% of GDP in 1997 going down to 43.24% of GDP in 2008*.

    good FT article by the way, cheers.

    * generously ignoring the onset of the worst of the recession in 2009 from the point of view of public finances.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 01-24-2010 at 23:48.
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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Pity, the episodes don't play outside of the UK.
    Use a British based proxy server.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Like the right to property”:
    Err, the right of property is not a natural human right.
    This one is a cultural right (as nature oppose to culture), as nomad will not impose property right in the same meaning than sedentary…
    If you want property as natural right you have to give property (of what by the way) to each newborn baby.
    Gah. Yes, it is. Nomads have property rights; they may not have owned land but they had horses and yurts and weapons. Even then, you can't call anything that doesn't allow the right to property 'libertarian'.

    You don't have to give property to people for them to have a right to property; you're conflating the right to own property with being given property by others.

    And here's a note on why Is the Swede Human?
    Radical Individualism in the Land of Social Solidarity
    Interesting, thanks for the link, but I am not swayed. The authors say that removing traditional ties of society like family and religion increases individualism. this may be true, but the authors say also it is substituted by increasing the power of the state and making the individual powerless next to the state. Considering cultural and traditional ties like family and churches do not carry force of law to impose themselves, and the state does, I do not see how overall individualism is increased.

    CR
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  8. #308
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Britain has grown more conservative under Labour:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...er-Labour.html
    Britain has become a more conservative country in the past two decades, both politically and socially, an official study of public attitudes shows.

    By Tom Whitehead, Home Affairs Editor
    Published: 6:30AM GMT 26 Jan 2010

    For the first time in 20 years more members of the public consider themselves Tory voters than Labour, according to the NatCen British Social Attitudes survey, which has been conducted annually since 1983.

    The study concludes that Britons have become more conservative in their views towards welfare and benefits since Labour was elected in 1997, with a majority believing that the poor should do more to look after themselves.

    The public has concluded "enough is enough" for increased taxation and raised spending on key services such as health and education, with support at its lowest for almost three decades.

    It comes as the battle to fix Britain's economy by reducing the public defecit becomes the central theme of the election. Mr Brown will hope that growth figures to be released today, which are expected to show Britain has finally emerged from the recession, can form the basis of an unlikely comeback in the polls.

    However, last night a poll for Channel 4 News showed most people, 72 per cent, say their vote will not be affected by the new figures and just 20 per cent will attribute the recovery to the Government.

    Gordon Brown yesterday attempted to portray himself as someone who was prepared to cut public services to pay off the deficit despite taunts from David Cameron that he was guilty of “moral cowardice”

    The Prime Minister has been accused of failing to accept before the election that he needs to explain how widespread Labours cuts will be.

    But he said that he would not be afraid to make cuts, although he warned that Tory plans to cut the deficit more quickly would jeopardise the recovery.

    Despite the anticipated return to growth, workers are reporting plummeting job satisfaction, believing they are being made to work harder, have fewer chances of promotion and are becoming more stressed. The research for the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development also showed that fewer than one in 10 people believe their standard of living has improved in recent months.

    The social attitude report’s authors attribute New Labour’s policies for the shift to the right because the party's repositioning under Tony Blair towards the centre has pushed the public to become more conservative.

    The wide-ranging report, which is funded by several Government departments is based on figures for 2008, the most recently available, but will still come as a boost for David Cameron, the Tory leader, in the run up to the next General Election.

    It underlines the sharp swing in British opinion over the past few years. In 2007, one in four people supported the Conservatives compared with 34 per cent in support of Labour. In the survey, the Tories now have 32 per cent support, compared with 27 per cent for Labour.

    But the shift in mood goes beyond voting preferences as attitudes have also hardened towards attempts to cut inequality and spread wealth more fairly.

    Only two in five people support increased taxes to fund higher spending on health and education, down from 62 per cent in 1997, while half say taxes and spending should remain the same as they are now, the highest level since 1984.

    A minority of one in five (21 per cent) think unemployment benefits are too low and cause hardship, compared with over 53 per cent in 1994.

    And there is growing support for lone parents to have a duty to find work attached to benefits entitlement if their children are of school age.

    However, there is increased social acceptance of homosexuality, cohabitation and “non-traditional” family structures.

    Report co-author John Curtice, a politics professor at Strathclyde University, said the shift to the right is mainly a result of the changing mindset of Labour supporters.

    Support for wealth distribution among such voters has dropped from two thirds to less than half since 1994 while it has remained broadly static among Tory voters.

    Prof Curtice said: "In repositioning itself ideologically New Labour helped ensure that the ideological terrain of British public opinion acquired a more conservative character.

    "Winning elections may not necessarily be any easier for the Conservative Party as a result – but, if and when they do secure power, they will find themselves governing a country that is more at ease with markets and economic freedom than it ever was when Margaret Thatcher was in power.

    "The wind of change blown by New Labour has proven to be powerful indeed."

    He said the increased spending on health and education was an astute move by Labour at the time but "now that spending has been increased, the public's thirst has been satisfied".

    He described "an electorate that is now much further away from traditional Labour attitudes than was the case little more than a decade ago", adding that the "more conservative tune of restraint in spending on public services and keeping a lid on the tax burden would now seem to provide a closer fit to the climate of opinion."

    The British Social Attitudes report also revealed the number of people voting out of a feeling of civic duty has plummeted in the last 20 years.

    Traditionally, large numbers of voters went to the ballot box because they felt it was their duty to do so.

    But the survey revealed that just over half of those quizzed (56 per cent) now believe everyone has a duty to vote in general elections.

    This figure is down from 68 per cent in 1991.

    Political disengagement is most marked in those aged under 35.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Member Member Boohugh's Avatar
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    But the survey revealed that just over half of those quizzed (56 per cent) now believe everyone has a duty to vote in general elections.

    This figure is down from 68 per cent in 1991.

    Political disengagement is most marked in those aged under 35.
    Considering I'd classify myself as very politically aware and even I feel there has been no attempt to engage people my age in politics, this comes as no surprise at all. I've had the vote for almost 8 years now but I have never seen any election promises or other attempt to gain my vote in any election.

    It is a vicious circle, in that the political parties don't bother appealing to my age group to engage in politics and vote for them, as statistically we have the lowest voter turnout, hence what is the point for them? However this leads to the same group becoming more disaffected and so even less likely to vote in the future as they don't see the political parties as appealing to them or representing their views.

    The only time I have seen any sort of significant political activity from my age group was over the issue of tuition fees at university and the result was the Government ignored all our views and went ahead with their plans unchanged anyway. When they don't even bother engaging us over an issue that clearly caught the attention of my age group, what hope do we have over any other issue? Problem is none of the political parties really seem to care about it and so aren't making any real effort to promote a change in attitude.

  10. #310
    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    We can't have these young people attempting to protest the allegations that they're all boozing, vandalising thugs with no respect for their betters ecetera.

  11. #311
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Like the right to property”:
    Err, the right of property is not a natural human right.
    This one is a cultural right (as nature oppose to culture), as nomad will not impose property right in the same meaning than sedentary…
    If you want property as natural right you have to give property (of what by the way) to each newborn baby.
    I think the vast majority of rights are simply products of civilization. In many primitive societies, women could not, or were in no position to refuse sex with alpha males. I think women should be able to withhold consent, but it's not a natural right in the sense of universally occurring.
    Another, slightly more useful definition of natural rights:
    Pretty much every civilisation wich endures for a significant period of time outlaws murder, theft and whatnot. So right to life and property could be considered "natural rights" as they're practically universally found in civilizations across the globe. Now, in the Soviet Union there was no (private) property and everyone's life was uncertain in Democratic Kampuchea but they're the exceptions wich don't endure for long

    So, one could argue that the emergence of property rights as we know them is a result of humanity progressing forward, "civilizationally" speaking. As is equality of men and women
    Last edited by Kralizec; 01-26-2010 at 17:36.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    "So, one could argue that the emergence of property rights as we know them is a result of humanity progressing forward, "civilizationally" speaking. As is equality of men and women" Yeap. And the freedom etc...
    I predfer "cultural" right than natural anyway
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

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    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
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  13. #313
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    A timely report was released today.
    A detailed and startling analysis of how unequal Britain has become offers a snapshot of an increasingly divided nation where the richest 10% of the population are more than 100 times as wealthy as the poorest 10% of society.
    Gordon Brown described the paper, published today, as "sobering", saying: "The report illustrates starkly that despite a levelling-off of inequality in the last decade we still have much further to go."

    The report, An Anatomy of Economic Inequality in the UK, scrutinises the degree to which the country has become more unequal over the past 30 years. Much of it will make uncomfortable reading for the Labour government, although the paper indicates that considerable responsibility lies with the Tories, who presided over the dramatic divisions of the 1980s and early 1990s.
    Researchers analyse inequality according to a number of measures; one indicates that by 2007-8 Britain had reached the highest level of income inequality since soon after the second world war.


    Commissioned by Harriet Harman, minister for women and equality, the National Equality Panel has been working on the 460-page document for 16 months, led by Prof John Hills, of the London School of Economics. The report is more ambitious in scope than any other state-of-the-nation wealth assessment project ever undertaken.

    It concludes that the government has failed to plug the gulf that existed between the poorest and richest in society in the 1980s. "Over the most recent decade, earnings inequality has narrowed a little and income inequality has stabilised on some measures, but the large inequality growth of the 1980s has not been reversed," it states.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...britain-report
    Levelling off is not enough if you are Labour. The trend ought to be reversed.


    ~~o~~o~~<<oOo>>~~o~~o~~


    Labour ought to be Labour, to represent the British working and middle class, those 98% who did not attent Eton and Oxbridge.
    Will Brown, Milliband et all do away with NuLab, just in time for the elections?
    Gordon Brown's entertaining performance during prime minister's question time this week might not have been as strong a statement of intent as that of the miners, but his attack on Eton-educated David Cameron was the closest he has come to a declaration of class war against the Tories since he took over as PM.

    With only six months or so to go before the general election it could be seen as a bid to win back some of the traditional working class heartlands to the Labour party. It could also be interpreted as an effort to recruit some of the thousands of disillusioned and principled constituency activists who have given up the good fight, particularly during the Blair years of war and privatisation.
    Labour attacks on "Tory Toffs" haven't always paid off, but the fact is that Gordon Brown has a point.

    Seldom can the Conservative frontbenches have been stuffed with such a motley array of Eton- and Oxbridge-educated millionaires.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...bour-class-war

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    New Labour:
    It is time now to put on my Leftist battle gear and uniform: These social traitors just did the same policy than Thatcher and consort (and yes I think of Major).
    In fact, it is so obvious than Cameron can not decide what he could have done different from Brown:
    - Selling all the factories to private and foreign companies: done.
    - Deregulations of bankers: done
    - Taxing the middle-classes and exoneration of taxes for the richest: done
    - Transformation of the Anglo-Normans Islands in a fiscal paradise: done
    - Privatisation and mutation of energy, transport, water companies in machine to make money for friends: done
    - Declaring few wars to prove whatever: done
    - Laws in favour of the employers and destabilisation of unions: done
    - Sabotage of free education: done

    Same things can be said for the French Social Traitors known as Socialist Party.

    All of them just forget what work means: It was to be proud of a job, to earn by your sweat and labour your money and to raise your kids. To be able to hope they will be better than you thanks to the Public School open to every body and giving the same opportunities without discrimination. To defend our freedom against internal and external oppressors, to dream of a better world where people would have dignity, even the less fortunate by luck or gift.
    They sold their souls (if they still have one) to the Market, and exchanged the DREAM for ACTION PLAN.
    J’irai cracher sur vos tombes: I will go to spit on your graves.

    Ouf. I feel better.
    Great rant.
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  14. #314
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    I'm one of the 98% who didn't go to Oxbridge or Eton, (only 98%?), and I wouldn't vote for the Labour party if my life depended on it. I've worked with too many members of the onanists Labour party and wouldn't give them the steam off my ****.

    If you think about it, Labour has a vested interest in keeping poor people poor and the working class downtrodden. After all if there was no poor people or downtrodden working classes they would not get any votes.

    In light of this, it makes perfect sense why they tank the economy everytime they get their mucky little paws on the levers of power.

    I am Labours worst nightmare. A working class libertarian.
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    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Wink Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Not even a wee little sniff of the steam of your ****...?
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    What's wrong with Oxbridge?

  17. #317
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    What's wrong with Oxbridge?
    Nothing at all, and Eton is a very fine school. People who complain about Public schools are really complaining that they can't afford a good education for their children without paying for it.

    The disgusting thing is that they want to drag those who can pay down to the level of the poorest, rather than raising the quality of state education.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Nothing at all, and Eton is a very fine school. People who complain about Public schools are really complaining that they can't afford a good education for their children without paying for it.

    The disgusting thing is that they want to drag those who can pay down to the level of the poorest, rather than raising the quality of state education.
    quite so.
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    pardon my klatchian Member al Roumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    The disgusting thing is that they want to drag those who can pay down to the level of the poorest, rather than raising the quality of state education.
    pff. yeah, exactly like Pol Pot.

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    The disgusting thing is that they want to drag those who can pay down to the level of the poorest, rather than raising the quality of state education.
    No they don't, they want to raise the quality of state education.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Nothing at all, and Eton is a very fine school. People who complain about Public schools are really complaining that they can't afford a good education for their children without paying for it.

    The disgusting thing is that they want to drag those who can pay down to the level of the poorest, rather than raising the quality of state education.
    The problem is not social envy. Britons are quite accepting of difference in talent.

    No, the problem is social mobility. Class, not talent or a willingness to work hard is the deciding factor in the UK.
    Talented Swedes who work hard progress in life, manage a better life for their children. Talented, hard working Britons will remain poor.* Then have to suffer insults for it from their social 'superiors' - brats with half their brains but twice as wealthy parents. Or, possibly even worse, suffer insults from self-delusional people who suffer from the widespread syndrome of 'I am really one class higher up than by any objective measurement of my social position'.


    A central theme of the report is the profound, lifelong negative impact that being born poor, and into a disadvantaged social class, has on a child. These inequalities accumulate over the life cycle, the report concludes. Social class has a big impact on children's school readiness at the age of three, but continues to drag children back through school and beyond.


    "The evidence we have looked at shows the long arm of people's origins in shaping their life chances, stretching through life stages, literally from cradle to grave. Differences in wealth in particular are associated with opportunities such as the ability to buy houses in the catchment areas of the best schools or to afford private education, with advantages for children that continue through and beyond education.

    *Disclaimer against the inevitable 'I am / I know some people who...': social mobility as a general statistic, not anecdotal. Social mobility, today's major report learned again, is exceedingly low in Britain. The continent has meritocracies, especially the North. Britain is a class society. It has regressed since Thatcher back to the level of the beginning of the 20th century.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    No they don't, they want to raise the quality of state education.
    lol, which entirely explains the continuous attempts to destroy those elements of the school system that are consistently successful, such as using infrastructure funding to force selective schools into non-selective regimes, and removing the charitable status from private schools unless byzantine quota rules are accepted.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  23. #323
    pardon my klatchian Member al Roumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    lol, which entirely explains the continuous attempts to destroy those elements of the school system that are consistently successful, such as using infrastructure funding to force selective schools into non-selective regimes, and removing the charitable status from private schools unless byzantine quota rules are accepted.
    I suspect those measures are intended to reduce the exclusive elitism both selective/grammar schools and private/public schools engender. The simple fact which today's report re-iterates is that overall, middle-class people do better than working class people -purely because of their parent's class.

    I imagine your "byzantine quotas" are designed to ensure that private schools feature a balanced proportion of working and middle class children.

    Ultimately this is a moral argument about whether you think people should accept their lot (and for some the ceiling to their ambitions), due to the shear accident of fate that bore them to the familly it did -and not one down the road or, why not, in Mogadishu or Port-au-prince.

    Labour seems to have arrested or stabilised the trend to increasing inequality, whether the buckets of cash thrown at the problem have had the best effect they could have as resources is another matter. It is a long term issue, felt through generations. I hope it has been money well spent!

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    and yet you fail to realise that the grammar school was the vehicle that allowed so many working class kids to get ahead in life.

    i wouldn't say i was ever from a working class background (though my dad was), but a teacher and a nurse supporting four kids is hardly a 'privileged' background.

    actively crippling selective schools is a viscous and chippy way to 'help' those who are under-privileged, and that is exactly what has been done.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Nothing at all, and Eton is a very fine school. People who complain about Public schools are really complaining that they can't afford a good education for their children without paying for it.
    I doubt that somewhat. My college gets better results (AAA's) than Eton, yet wayyy students from Eton go to Oxford than they do from my college. It's not the quality of the education, or the cost that they're complaining about. It's the fact that it's effectively buying yourself an advantage over people who are brighter than you.

  26. #326
    pardon my klatchian Member al Roumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    and yet you fail to realise that the grammar school was the vehicle that allowed so many working class kids to get ahead in life.
    Yes, it did allow some kids to get ahead. However, what grammar schools also do is "skim the cream" off and leave the less able children to wallow in what effectively become sink schools. To give you an example, I grew up in a town with 1 grammar school and 2 comprehensives. The grammar school produced kids with grades much higher than the comprehensives, which were basically sink schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    actively crippling selective schools is a viscous and chippy way to 'help' those who are under-privileged, and that is exactly what has been done.
    There is an argument for keeping a mixture of kids with different academic apptitudes in a class, it helps improve the level of those struggling, provides an example and makes the job of the teacher easier. There's no hiding from the chance that a more general class won't push the brighter children as much as a set class of the best would though. For those in favour of mixed classes, the view is that the needs of the least capable are greater than those of the more capable -in a cheesy way: the strong help the weak and the strong need less help.

    Whatever side of the elite/lowest common denominator equation you favour, everyone (and each party) will argue it's paramount to improve the general standard of the state system.

    For my part, I think that in an ideal world you need a system that helps the least able whilst also producing high standards of excellence. Now, how to do that is of course another matter than just typing eutopic ideals.

  27. #327
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    The problem is not social envy. Britons are quite accepting of difference in talent.
    I dissagree, Class envy is a big issue in the UK, as is Class prejudice. Class prejudice in the UK makes an academic education the preserve of the Middle Class, so that working-class parents don't support their children nearly enough for them to get ahead.

    No, the problem is social mobility. Class, not talent or a willingness to work hard is the deciding factor in the UK.
    Talented Swedes who work hard progress in life, manage a better life for their children. Talented, hard working Britons will remain poor.* Then have to suffer insults for it from their social 'superiors' - brats with half their brains but twice as wealthy parents. Or, possibly even worse, suffer insults from self-delusional people who suffer from the widespread syndrome of 'I am really one class higher up than by any objective measurement of my social position'.
    An interesting idea, but "Class" is not wealth. My parents are poor, yet they are also Middle Class, and because of this I have two degrees from a good university, a reasonably well paying job (which I got before even handing in my second dissertation) and good prospects. I have these things because, in part, my parents saved from before I was born and supported me so that I could overcome the handicap of going to a bad school and thence lacking the advantages of a superior education; particularly felt in my late learning of Latin.

    You are right that Class in the UK is very important, but that Class is a social construct, not a function of wealth or success.

    Quote Originally Posted by alh_p View Post
    I suspect those measures are intended to reduce the exclusive elitism both selective/grammar schools and private/public schools engender. The simple fact which today's report re-iterates is that overall, middle-class people do better than working class people -purely because of their parent's class.
    Well, Grammar Schools are only intellectually elite, and they are a major engine for changing your social class. Any child can recieve a near-Public School education for free. They should be encouraged. Attacking intellectual merit is a prejudice against those who do well, and it merely de-values education as a whole and engenders the belief that you should be able to do well regardless of how hard you work or how clever you are.

    I imagine your "byzantine quotas" are designed to ensure that private schools feature a balanced proportion of working and middle class children.
    These schools are businesses, Labour's quotas either lose them charitable status or force them to raise fees, often pricing out only the very rich, and making them socially more exclusive than they wish to be. Public Schools provide scholarships to poor but intelligent students, I so no reason why they should be forced to accept poor avergae students. The best schools require a basic level of attainment and behaviour in all their pupils.

    Ultimately this is a moral argument about whether you think people should accept their lot (and for some the ceiling to their ambitions), due to the shear accident of fate that bore them to the familly it did -and not one down the road or, why not, in Mogadishu or Port-au-prince.
    Money and brains are two natural ways to get ahead, as is hard-headedness, all three work. Look at our Leaders, Cameron and Blair both had money and brains, Brown had brains, and John Prescott had a heroically solid head.

    I see no reason why those who are none of the above should be on the same level, or why the best should be dragged down to the level of the average.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    I doubt that somewhat. My college gets better results (AAA's) than Eton, yet wayyy students from Eton go to Oxford than they do from my college. It's not the quality of the education, or the cost that they're complaining about. It's the fact that it's effectively buying yourself an advantage over people who are brighter than you.
    Eton is still a fine schools, because it teaches more than just how to pass government exams. Given that Oxford basically bins every non AAA application now, Eton offers candidates who will not only be bright, but also driven and will fit into the College system and partake of activities like rowing and rugby.

    Quote Originally Posted by alh_p View Post
    Yes, it did allow some kids to get ahead. However, what grammar schools also do is "skim the cream" off and leave the less able children to wallow in what effectively become sink schools. To give you an example, I grew up in a town with 1 grammar school and 2 comprehensives. The grammar school produced kids with grades much higher than the comprehensives, which were basically sink schools.
    I'm ok with this, because once the best are taken care of you can work on impriving the standards in the Comps. At the end of the day, only the best will go to Oxbridge etc. anyway, and getting them ahead is important for our society.

    Whatever side of the elite/lowest common denominator equation you favour, everyone (and each party) will argue it's paramount to improve the general standard of the state system.[/QUOTE]

    On this we agree, but currently we have a system which discriminates against both the wealthy and intellectually gifted. The fact is that the popularity of Grammar and Public schools merely demonstrates that the Comprehensive is not good enough.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  28. #328
    Shaidar Haran Senior Member SAM Site Champion Myrddraal's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Yes, it did allow some kids to get ahead. However, what grammar schools also do is "skim the cream" off and leave the less able children to wallow in what effectively become sink schools. To give you an example, I grew up in a town with 1 grammar school and 2 comprehensives. The grammar school produced kids with grades much higher than the comprehensives, which were basically sink schools.
    Of course the Grammar school produced kids with better grades. The motivated/able go into the grammar school, the motivated/able come out of the grammar school.

    Put an hard working child into a class of less motivated kids and that child will not inspire hard work in the others. Exactly the opposite will happen, that child might be bullied, and is quite likely to loose motivation.

    I disagree with better education being provided on the basis of your parent's income, but in general I agree with better education for those who are motivated. Because of that I feel it's a shame that the Grammar School system has disappeared from large swathes of the country. There are valid debates to be had about whether 11 is too young an age at which to decide which school you go to, and whether there should be more mobility between Comps and Grammars, but at the end of the day I think the principle of grouping students by their motivation (which, perhaps regrettably, is best measured by their success) is a good one.

    One thing I am sure of is that the Grammar schools should not have been removed without a ready replacement which provided the same level of education for the able and motivated.

  29. #329
    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Eton is still a fine schools, because it teaches more than just how to pass government exams. Given that Oxford basically bins every non AAA application now, Eton offers candidates who will not only be bright, but also driven and will fit into the College system and partake of activities like rowing and rugby.
    So those things are the solve preserve of the public school? If Oxford is meant to be about academic excellence, then statistically, more students from my college should go to Oxford than Eton.

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    Member Member Boohugh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    If Oxford is meant to be about academic excellence, then statistically, more students from my college should go to Oxford than Eton.
    If university (any university, not just Oxford and Cambridge) was just about a purely academic education, then employers wouldn't be asking about all the extra-curricular activities you get up to at university when you apply for a job. What Oxford and Cambridge do is combine all those other activities with academic excellence, so why is it surprising they want students who have shown they can manage those activities alongside their studies in the past?

    Now, the bigger question is why students who go to state schools don't get similar extra-curricular opportunities that those at private schools enjoy? Of course there is a financial element, they probably won't get the same range for this reason. However, the fact Labour has been selling off all the playing fields and banning competitive sports shows that, not only have they failed to improve the situation or even keep the status quo, they have actually managed to make things worse than before in this regard. What's worse is Labour don't even seem to recognise it as a problem, rather blaming all the private schools for providing these extra activities and saying they make it unfair on state pupils when they apply to university. It's same old Labour, trying to reduce everyone down to the lowest level rather than aiming to bring as many people as possible up to a higher level.

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