Cavalry charge gone awry

**Tai-Pan** · 02-02-2010, 21:09

I'm currently playing the crusades campaign as Jerusalem and have been fighting the Byzantines. I commanded my cavalry to charge a unit of Varangian Guard, and it destroyed my cavalry! I'm aware that that can happen when you charge spearmen or pikemen, but is there a list anywhere of all the units you should avoid charging? Later I had the same thing happen when I charged some Muslim javelinmen.

The Varangian Guard really didn't make any sense, because they just have axes. I thought I would use a couple of simultaneous cavalry charges to take the unit out so my infantry wouldn't have to get into it with them, but it didn't work at all.

**Galain_Ironhide** · 02-03-2010, 00:52

You'll find most axe units have a bonus against Cavalry, however they should have initially taken a licking from the Cav charge. If you notice a fight isn't going well using cav, do your best to withdraw them ASAP.

Also ensure your cav are nicely formed before initiating the charge and also not too close to the enemy as they will not drop their lances in time, thus pretty much ruining their charge.

Have you seen this website? It gives you details on all the units through out M2TW, Kingdoms and also including the various mods out there. http://totalwar.honga.net/versions.php

**Tai-Pan** · 02-03-2010, 03:53

My charge was a perfect set up, my cavalry were all lined up when they hit, lances down, charging. It looked just like a cavalry charge into the stakes in the normal campaign. About a fourth of my cavalry died on impact, and it didn't look like a single varangian guard went down.

**Galain_Ironhide** · 02-03-2010, 17:03

I tested this today out of curiosity using Kingdoms Crusades. First I tried as Cavalry attacking an AI Varangian Guard unit - I won mainly because the AI werent standing still, they ran towards me instead of standing still, thus making the charge successful, I killed them all but not before almost instanly losing half of the cavalry unit (I used Knights of Jerusalem from the KOJ faction).
Second I tried as a Varangian Guard unit against an AI Cavalry unit - The AI cav unit charged me and as a result, it was like they hit a brick wall which very quickly wiped the Cav unit out - their charge was quashed. I lost half of the VG's in the unit.

Looks like unit imbalance to me. The only thing I can suggest for when you are attacking VG's, first attack with a sword/spear unit and outflank them with your cav and charge them from behind or from the side.

**Cute Wolf** · 02-04-2010, 06:31

Don't forget that Varanggian guardsmen get terribly high ap attack (that half your cav's armour!!!), as well as really darn good defense.... Your best bet is charging them with simultanous cav charges, not just one

**Aemilius Paulus** · 02-04-2010, 18:57

Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

Don't forget that Varanggian guardsmen get terribly high ap attack (that half your cav's armour!!!), as well as really darn good defense....

Yeah, but that still cannot account for the losses. Axe or sword infantry cannot reflect any of the charge damage and are thus utterly annihilated in M2TW. The AP attack will make a difference in melee, but not the initial impact. Only polearms can reflect charge damage.

**Galain_Ironhide** · 02-04-2010, 23:01

You could certainly use this VG exploit to good effect if you were going to play a crusades campaign as the Byzantines.

**Old Geezer** · 02-06-2010, 16:36

I can easily see a cavalry charge being stopped by Varangian Guard but not javelinmen. Varangian Guard have to be the toughest infantry. I once had them beat up on my Scots pikemen (can't remember if they were the Nobles though) who had their secondary weapons removed and no other unit (even elephants) can do that. I am not sure that you can tell what is going on with them even by watching the animation closely. They seem to have a super mass to them as do the pikemen when charged by elephants. I would not try charging Varangians straight on even with gold level Hospitallers with upgraded weapons. But, normally even mailed knights should hurt javelinmen severely, even the better types. However, if the cavalry lingers they can take a whuppin, especially if the javelins get thrown just before impact, because they are armor piercing.