Secular Society Threatened?

[JAG]

We have nothing to fear. It is true that the first article in particular is very disturbing - but honestly I don't like to believe something purely because it is in the laughable paper that is the Times. But again, if it is true it is disturbing. however I am sure that those amongst in society who hate secular society and the increasing strength of the secular movement in all walks of life, would be able to post a vast many threads like this - whereas the whole underpinning of this thread is the fact that actions in the articles are so rare and thus worrying when they are seen. The secular movement is making strides all the time, I for one, am not worried.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

We have nothing to fear. It is true that the first article in particular is very disturbing - but honestly I don't like to believe something purely because it is in the laughable paper that is the Times. But again, if it is true it is disturbing. however I am sure that those amongst in society who hate secular society and the increasing strength of the secular movement in all walks of life, would be able to post a vast many threads like this - whereas the whole underpinning of this thread is the fact that actions in the articles are so rare and thus worrying when they are seen. The secular movement is making strides all the time, I for one, am not worried.

An amusing perspective, given the ever-increasing congregation in religious buildings, particularly fundamentalist ones, and hummanity's natural affinity for belief systems.

[The Wizard]

An amusing perspective, given the ever-increasing congregation in religious buildings, particularly fundamentalist ones, and hummanity's natural affinity for belief systems.

There is nothing "natural" about belief. Have you ever seen a monkey pray? Moreover, church attendance has been dropping at increasing rates since the bloody '60s. 1000s of churches across the West close their doors every year.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There is nothing "natural" about belief. Have you ever seen a monkey pray? Moreover, church attendance has been dropping at increasing rates since the bloody '60s. 1000s of churches across the West close their doors every year.

.... and thousands of new Mosques and Evangelical Churches open each year. How can you not see it? You think that just because Catholic and main-line Protestant Churches struggle religion is dying? As far as "natural" goes, name a human culture without a belief system?

[The Wizard]

The Pope, a man in a dress. Ridiculous show. Oh, and the Sacre-Coeur is perhaps the ugliest church on the inside I have ever seen. Please do demolish it, or at least rework the interior.

.... and thousands of new Mosques and Evangelical Churches open each year. How can you not see it? You think that just because Catholic and main-line Protestant Churches struggle religion is dying? As far as "natural" goes, name a human culture without a belief system?

These numbers are an average across all religions, LOL. The small gains made in the West by evangelicals and Muslims (I doubt they even exist) in no way make up for the massive losses sustained by every other religion, even in the US.

Also, I never said religion itself was dying. Church attendance dropping like a stone means organized religion is dying (at least in the West), and I heartily cheer its coming demise.

Finally, define belief system. There are millions upon millions of people today without a religion. They have a belief system but not a religion. And considering religion exists only in the context of human civilization, you can hardly call it "natural". It is a product of our urban culture, and thus arguably unnatural.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I never mistake 'religious' for stupid. Christians can also be 'reasonable'. 'Reason' with a capital 'R', however, (to me?) is a cultural-historical term, decidedly non-religious.

I wasn't suggesting you saw Christians as stupid, so much as irrational. What you have just said indicates to me that you see us as being, "rational within our delusions". That is to say, we are functionally insane but predictable and not totally disconnected from the world.

I dislike hypocrisy, so I shan't be one and confess that yes, I wouldn't mind Christianity to dissappear altoghether, to render it a historical phase that Europe/the West had to go through. 'Through Christianity, above Christianity', as the saying goes.

It is important for interlocutors to be up front, so I shall do you the same courtesy. I think we would all be better off if everyone was a Christian, and by that I really mean a Christian like me, who holds the principle of a Good and Loving God over the minute details of an ancient text.

Nevertheless, my verdict of Chritianity is not entirely negative. Indeed, it has many positive aspects. The relationship between Christianity and learnedness, or science, for example, is not one of strict antagonism. Christianity has played a role in the very development of, the direction of Western thought. (As above, 'through Christianity etc').

Occam's Razor comes to mind here; I'll be very surprised if anyone knows what he famously used it for and was as a result accused of heresy.

I must also confess that I would prefer sharing a metro with Christians over one with non-religious folk, or with people from several other religions. I would have a better chance of getting home unscathed.*

Having said all that, how would you feel if a suspected criminal is defended with the words 'Your honour, my client has seen the error of his ways. He is now no longer religious, doesn't attend church every Sunday anymore, so we ask for a sentence redution'.*
For this is what lawyers frequently plead, with the difference that their client is described as 'a religious man'.

*Yes, there is a common theme to the two asterixed bits, which is not coincidental and should hopefully get me in trouble when somebody pounds on it.

Well, my view would be that certain religions require penitence for Sins, and that aspect of the religious belief can be used as a mitigating factor. It would be the same as saying, "your honour, my client wishes to express the deepest regret for his actions...."

It isn't the same as saying "my client has given up God" because "having God" and "not having God" are not simply diometrically opposed. The "having" implies a belief structure and moral base that the "not having" does not necessarily remove.

Regardless, simply claiming a religion does not diminish guilt or demonstrate contrition.

[KukriKhan]

Well, I guess there's one silver-lining in the dark cloud Louis sees looming: at least France has the money to afford the luxury of building a nice place of worship. Over here, Major Cities are Turning Off Streetlights for lack of Tax Funds.