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Thread: Secular Society Threatened?

  1. #61

    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    It isn't cowardly to lob cruise missiles, it's smart. It isn't cowardly to bomb a bus, it's crazy.

    Our guys being brave doesn't mean the other guys have to be cowards. No one cares about bravery when the brave person is doing something wrong.

  2. #62
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Yes, that's true. For the foreign legion.

    But a lot of the Taliban fighters are just poor afghan people without jobs who just want those 100 dollars the taliban pays, and the 10.000 dollars they pay their family if they die. You can't honestly believe that a country with some 70% illiterates are all well learned in religion. It doesn't add up.

    Don't make the issue more black and white than it needs to be, please.
    Well, they're illiterate because of the Taliban to start with. There a two types of fighters out there, those doing the Terrorism and those ambushing patrolling soldiers. Here's the thing, the locals are far more likely to be marines or paratroopers only carrying M-16's/SA-80's, etc. The guys getting bombed in their compounds are the hardcore bomb-makers and baby-killers.

    So don't make the issue more grey than it is, and try to pretend that the 30 paratroopers attacked by 200 Taliban fighters aren't brave either.

    Further, given that most of the idiots can't shoot strait suggests they aren't locals, anyway.
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  3. #63
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    I'm sure there are brave and cowardly people on both sides.

    Whatever 'cause' is right has nothing to do with bravery at all.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    I'm sure there are brave and cowardly people on both sides.

    Whatever 'cause' is right has nothing to do with bravery at all.
    Spot on, my friend!

    Let's take WW2 as an example. Hitler is the ultimate scumbag. His army was composed of everything from hardcore SS scumbags to a Wehrmacht supply soldier. Is that supply soldier an arse because he was part of the same entity as the SS? Guilt by association?

    The German 6th army, the one who was crushed at Stalingrad, behaved like barbarian scumbags as they went through Ukraine on the way to Stalingrad, raping, murdering and looting. That's not very brave, and certainly not heroic... But when they got caught in the kessel at Stalingrad, how would you describe their behaviour? A lot of them were fighting to the very last bullet, never giving up. Is that not courage? Remember how apathetic they were from malnutrition at that point... A lot of them simply gave up and wanted to die, while others fought on to the bitter end. Is that not bravery, because they had been raping and murdering jews 6 months earlier?

    That doesn't make sense.

    Also Philip, you should know that Afghanistan was a piss-poor uneducated country long before the Taliban came. They sure didn't help things, but the country has been a mess for decades.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  5. #65

    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    I want my government to be completely secularized and free of all religion because i'm afraid that if in power, the religious right in my country will take away my blaspheming Lady Gaga.


  6. #66
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    ^gosh you are an impressive troll acin. No seriously i take my hat off for you.

    Im not going to get into this arguement. Sinc ei uh know so many cowardly fighter pilots i feel i may become too inflamed.

    *cough percentage of pilots who die is higher than even infantry cough*

    *cough three of my dads squadron buddies died in their top of the line American aircraft cough*

    *cough im personally trying to do everything in my power to become one of those cowardly us soldiers cough*

    yeah im not going to answer.

  7. #67

    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    ^gosh you are an impressive troll acin. No seriously i take my hat off for you.
    Thank you, that really does mean a lot to me.


  8. #68
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    I have a problem assigning the terms "good" and "evil" in complex human affairs crammed from top to bottom with many agendas.
    Requesting suggestions for new sig.

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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    ^gosh you are an impressive troll acin. No seriously i take my hat off for you.

    Im not going to get into this arguement. Sinc ei uh know so many cowardly fighter pilots i feel i may become too inflamed.

    *cough percentage of pilots who die is higher than even infantry cough*

    *cough three of my dads squadron buddies died in their top of the line American aircraft cough*

    *cough im personally trying to do everything in my power to become one of those cowardly us soldiers cough*

    yeah im not going to answer.
    Pilots are resbonsible for more civilian casaulties than any other soldiers. Fact.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  10. #70
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Bombs explode of course they do, a mistake has more consequences. One could also say that pilots save more lives.

  11. #71
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    For consideration, a quick article describing Habermas' thoughts on the 'post-secular' society.

    Jürgen Habermas is perhaps Europe's foremost philosopher struggling with this issue. Two isssues: Europe stands alone in its secularism, in a world of resurging superstition. And, secondly, it falls due to disbelieving secularists to understand the convictions of religiously motivated fellow citizens.

    Last April Habermas presented a more systematic perspective on religion's role in contemporary society at an international conference on "Philosophy and Religion" at Poland's Lodz University. One of the novelties of Habermas's Lodz presentation, "Religion in the Public Sphere," was the commendable idea that "toleration" -- the bedrock of modern democratic culture -- is always a two-way street. Not only must believers tolerate others' beliefs, including the credos and convictions of nonbelievers; it falls due to disbelieving secularists, similarly, to appreciate the convictions of religiously motivated fellow citizens. From the standpoint of Habermas's "theory of communicative action," this stipulation suggests that we assume the standpoint of the other. It would be unrealistic and prejudicial to expect that religiously oriented citizens wholly abandon their most deeply held convictions upon entering the public sphere where, as a rule and justifiably, secular reasoning has become our default discursive mode.
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    Jürgen Habermas and Post-Secular Societies


    Jürgen Habermas and Post-Secular Societies
    By RICHARD WOLIN

    Among 19th-century thinkers it was an uncontestable commonplace that religion's cultural centrality was a thing of the past. For Georg Hegel, following in the footsteps of the Enlightenment, religion had been surpassed by reason's superior conceptual precision. In The Essence of Christianity (1841), Ludwig Feuerbach depicted the relationship between man and divinity as a zero-sum game. In his view, the stress on godliness merely detracted from the sublimity of human ends. In one of his youthful writings, Karl Marx, Feuerbach's most influential disciple, famously dismissed religion as "the opium of the people." Its abolition, Marx believed, was a sine qua non for human betterment. Friedrich Nietzsche got to the heart of the matter by having his literary alter ego, the brooding prophet Zarathustra, brusquely declaim, "God is dead," thereby pithily summarizing what many educated Europeans were thinking but few had the courage actually to say. And who can forget Nietzsche's searing characterization of Christianity as a "slave morality," a plebeian belief system appropriate for timorous conformists but unsuited to the creation of a future race of domineering ـbermenschen? True to character, the only representatives of Christianity Nietzsche saw fit to praise were those who could revel in a good auto-da-fé -- Inquisition stalwarts like Ignatius Loyola.

    Twentieth-century characterizations of belief were hardly more generous. Here, one need look no further than the title of Freud's 1927 treatise on religion: The Future of an Illusion.

    Today, however, there are omnipresent signs of a radical change in mentality. In recent years, in both the United States and the developing world, varieties of religious fundamentalism have had a major political impact. As Democratic presidential hopefuls Howard Dean and John Kerry learned the hard way, politicians who are perceived as faithless risk losing touch with broad strata of the electorate.

    Are contemporary philosophers up to the challenge of explaining and conceptualizing these striking recent developments? After all, what Freud, faithfully reflecting the values of the scientific age, cursorily dismissed as illusory seems to have made an unexpected and assertive comeback -- one that shows few signs of abating anytime soon.

    Jürgen Habermas may be the living philosopher most likely to succeed where angels, and their detractors, fear to tread. Following Jacques Derrida's death last October, it would seem that Habermas has justly inherited the title of the world's leading philosopher. Last year he won the prestigious Kyoto Prize for Arts and Philosophy (previous recipients include Karl Popper and Paul Ricoeur), capping an eventful career replete with honors as well as a number of high-profile public debates.

    The centerpiece of Habermas's moral philosophy is "discourse ethics," which takes its inspiration from Immanuel Kant's categorical imperative. For Kant, to count as moral, actions must pass the test of universality: The actor must be able to will that anyone in a similar situation should act in the same way. According to Kant, lying and stealing are immoral insofar as they fall beneath the universalization threshold; only at the price of grave self-contradiction could one will that lying and stealing become universal laws. Certainly, we can envisage a number of exceptional situations where we could conceivably justify lying or stealing. In Kant's example, at your door is a man intent on murdering your loved one and inquiring as to her whereabouts. Or what if you were too poor to purchase the medicine needed to save your spouse's life?

    In the first case you might well think it would be permissible to lie; and in the second case, to steal. Yet on both counts Kant is immovable. An appeal to circumstances might well complicate our decision making. It might even elicit considerable public sympathy for otherwise objectionable conduct. But it can in no way render an immoral action moral. It is with good reason that Kant calls his imperative a categorical one, for an imperative that admits of exceptions is really no imperative at all.

    Habermas's approach to moral philosophy is Kantian, although he takes exception to the solipsistic, egological framework Kant employs. Habermas believes that, in order to be convincing, moral reasoning needs a broader, public basis. Discourse ethics seeks to offset the limitations of the Kantian approach. For Habermas, the give and take of argumentation, as a learning process, is indispensable. Through communicative reason we strive for mutual understanding and learn to assume the standpoint of the other. Thereby we also come to appreciate the narrowness of our own individual perspective. Discourse ethics proposes that those actions are moral that could be justified in an open-ended and genuine public dialogue. Its formula suggests that "only those norms can claim to be valid that meet (or could meet) with the appro-val of all affected in their capacity as participants in a practical discourse."

    Until recently Habermas was known as a resolutely secular thinker. On occasion his writings touched upon religious subjects or themes. But these confluences were exceptions that proved the rule.

    Yet a few years ago the tonality of his work began to change ever so subtly. In fall 2001 Habermas was awarded the prestigious Peace Prize of the German Publishers and Booksellers Association. The title of his acceptance speech, "Faith and Knowledge," had a palpably theological ring. The remarks, delivered shortly after the September 11 terrorist attacks, stressed the importance of mutual toleration between secular and religious approaches to life.

    Last year Habermas engaged in a high-profile public dialogue with Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger -- who, on April 19, was named as Pope John Paul II's successor -- at the cardinal's behest. A number of the philosopher's left-wing friends and followers were taken aback by his willingness to have a dialogue with one of Europe's most conservative prelates. In 2002 Habermas had published In Defense of Humanity, an impassioned critique of the risks of biological engineering and human cloning. It was this text in particular, in which the philosopher provided an eloquent defense of the right to a unique human identity -- a right that cloning clearly imperils -- that seems to have piqued the cardinal's curiosity and interest. Yet if one examines the trajectory of Habermas's intellectual development, the Ratzinger exchange seems relatively unexceptional.

    Glance back at Habermas's philosophical chef d'oeuvre, the two-volume Theory of Communicative Action (1981), and you'll find that one of his key ideas is the "linguistification of the sacred" (Versprachlichung des Sakrals). By this admittedly cumbersome term, Habermas asserts that modern notions of equality and fairness are secular distillations of time-honored Judeo-Christian precepts. The "contract theory" of politics, from which our modern conception of "government by consent of the governed" derives, would be difficult to conceive apart from the Old Testament covenants. Similarly, our idea of the intrinsic worth of all persons, which underlies human rights, stems directly from the Christian ideal of the equality of all men and women in the eyes of God. Were these invaluable religious sources of morality and justice to atrophy entirely, it is doubtful whether modern societies would be able to sustain this ideal on their own.

    In a recent interview Habermas aptly summarized those insights: "For the normative self-understanding of modernity, Christianity has functioned as more than just a precursor or a catalyst. Universalistic egalitarianism, from which sprang the ideals of freedom and a collective life in solidarity, the autonomous conduct of life and emancipation, the individual morality of conscience, human rights, and democracy, is the direct legacy of the Judaic ethic of justice and the Christian ethic of love."

    Three years ago the MIT Press published Religion and Rationality: Essays on Reason, God, and Modernity, an illuminating collection of Habermas's writings on religious themes. Edited and introduced by the philosopher Eduardo Mendieta, of the State University of New York at Stony Brook, the anthology concludes with a fascinating interview in which the philosopher systematically clarifies his views on a variety of religious areas. (A companion volume, The Frankfurt School on Religion: Key Writings by the Major Thinkers, also edited by Mendieta, was published in 2004 by Routledge.)

    On the one hand, religion's return -- Habermas, perhaps with the American situation foremost in mind, goes so far as to speak of the emergence of "post-secular societies" -- presents us with undeniable dangers and risks. While theodicy has traditionally provided men and women with consolation for the harsh injustices of fate, it has also frequently taught them to remain passively content with their lot. It devalues worldly success and entices believers with the promise of eternal bliss in the hereafter. Here the risk is that religion may encourage an attitude of social passivity, thereby contravening democracy's need for an active and engaged citizenry. To wit, the biblical myth of the fall perceives secular history as a story of decline or perdition from which little intrinsic good may emerge.

    On the other hand, laissez-faire's success as a universally revered economic model means that, today, global capitalism's triumphal march encounters few genuine oppositional tendencies. In that regard, religion, as a repository of transcendence, has an important role to play. It prevents the denizens of the modern secular societies from being overwhelmed by the all-encompassing demands of vocational life and worldly success. It offers a much-needed dimension of otherness: The religious values of love, community, and godliness help to offset the global dominance of competitiveness, acquisitiveness, and manipulation that predominate in the vocational sphere. Religious convictions encourage people to treat each other as ends in themselves rather than as mere means.
    One of Habermas's mentors, the Frankfurt School philosopher Max Horkheimer, once observed that "to salvage an unconditional meaning" -- one that stood out as an unqualified Good -- "without God is a futile undertaking." As a stalwart of the Enlightenment, Habermas himself would be unlikely to go that far. But he might consider Horkheimer's adage a timely reminder of the risks and temptations of all-embracing secularism. Habermas stressed in a recent public lecture "the force of religious traditions to articulate moral intuitions with regard to communal forms of a dignified human life." As forceful and persuasive as our secular philosophical precepts might be -- the idea of human rights, for example -- from time to time they benefit from renewed contact with the nimbus of their sacral origins.

    Last April Habermas presented a more systematic perspective on religion's role in contemporary society at an international conference on "Philosophy and Religion" at Poland's Lodz University. One of the novelties of Habermas's Lodz presentation, "Religion in the Public Sphere," was the commendable idea that "toleration" -- the bedrock of modern democratic culture -- is always a two-way street. Not only must believers tolerate others' beliefs, including the credos and convictions of nonbelievers; it falls due to disbelieving secularists, similarly, to appreciate the convictions of religiously motivated fellow citizens. From the standpoint of Habermas's "theory of communicative action," this stipulation suggests that we assume the standpoint of the other. It would be unrealistic and prejudicial to expect that religiously oriented citizens wholly abandon their most deeply held convictions upon entering the public sphere where, as a rule and justifiably, secular reasoning has become our default discursive mode. If we think back, for instance, to the religious idealism that infused the civil-rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s, we find an admirable example of the way in which a biblical sense of justice can be fruitfully brought to bear on contemporary social problems.

    The philosopher who addressed these issues most directly and fruitfully in recent years was John Rawls. In a spirit of collegial solidarity, Habermas, in his Lodz paper, made ample allusion to Rawlsian ideals. Perhaps Rawls's most important gloss on religion's role in modern politics is his caveat or "proviso" that, to gain a reasonable chance of public acceptance, religious reasons must ultimately be capable of being translated into secular forms of argumentation. In the case of public officials -- politicians and the judiciary, for example -- Rawls raises the secular bar still higher. He believes that, in their political language, there is little room for an open and direct appeal to nonsecular reasons, which, in light of the manifest diversity of religious beliefs, would prove extremely divisive. As Habermas affirms, echoing Rawls: "This stringent demand can only be laid at the door of politicians, who within state institutions are subject to the obligation to remain neutral in the face of competing worldviews." But if that stringent demand is on the politician, Habermas argues, "every citizen must know that only secular reasons count beyond the institutional threshold that divides the informal public sphere from parliaments, courts, ministries, and administrations."

    With his broad-minded acknowledgment of religion's special niche in the spectrum of public political debate, Habermas has made an indispensable stride toward defining an ethos of multicultural tolerance. Without such a perspective, prospects for equitable global democracy would seem exceedingly dim. The criterion for religious belief systems that wish to have their moral recommendations felt and acknowledged is the capacity to take the standpoint of the other. Only those religions that retain the capacity to bracket or suspend the temptations of theological narcissism -- the conviction that my religion alone provides the path to salvation -- are suitable players in our rapidly changing, post-secular moral and political universe.
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  12. #72
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Bombs explode of course they do, a mistake has more consequences. One could also say that pilots save more lives.
    Soldiers lives? Sure, of course they do, that's why they're used. Civilian lives? no.

    A pure infantry assault on Gaza, for example, would cause a LOT fewer civilian casaulties than the number we got with the bombings last year(unless you believe that Israeli soldiers are psycho's). But it would also mean a lot more dead soldiers than the 13 who died.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  13. #73
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Was an interesting interview with a Dutch soldier few weeks back, and he said he was terrified and kept shooting until nothing moved anymore. Sure he isn't the only one. Airstrike is surgery precision.

  14. #74
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    For consideration, a quick article describing Habermas' thoughts on the 'post-secular' society.

    Jürgen Habermas is perhaps Europe's foremost philosopher struggling with this issue. Two isssues: Europe stands alone in its secularism, in a world of resurging superstition. And, secondly, it falls due to disbelieving secularists to understand the convictions of religiously motivated fellow citizens.
    Last April Habermas presented a more systematic perspective on religion's role in contemporary society at an international conference on "Philosophy and Religion" at Poland's Lodz University. One of the novelties of Habermas's Lodz presentation, "Religion in the Public Sphere," was the commendable idea that "toleration" -- the bedrock of modern democratic culture -- is always a two-way street. Not only must believers tolerate others' beliefs, including the credos and convictions of nonbelievers; it falls due to disbelieving secularists, similarly, to appreciate the convictions of religiously motivated fellow citizens. From the standpoint of Habermas's "theory of communicative action," this stipulation suggests that we assume the standpoint of the other. It would be unrealistic and prejudicial to expect that religiously oriented citizens wholly abandon their most deeply held convictions upon entering the public sphere where, as a rule and justifiably, secular reasoning has become our default discursive mode.
    Interesting, thank you.

    The last three paragraphs don't quite jive with the rest though. If Secular society has sprung from Christian society and philosophy, then it was just that self-confident "narcisistic" type of religion that it sprung from.

    Defining the types of religion you will allow in your secular society is not very tollerant, and it certainly misses the point of the most popular and enduring religions, all of which are what the author defines as "narcisistic".
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  15. #75
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    I suppose this is all a matter of France vs. all your theocracies then. Or, possibly, of moderate and reasonable secular states vs. French hysteria. Either France is mad, or the rest of the world is. Not that this is an exceptional alignment.


    For what it's worth, the latest brutal attack. I suppose only Meneldil will understand the unspeakable horror of the French populist left turning theocratic.

    Olivier Besancenot, the postman-turned-revolutionary at the helm of France's anti-capitalist movement, has been fiercely criticised from all sides of the political spectrum for fielding a headscarf-wearing candidate in forthcoming elections.


    Ilham Moussaid, a 21-year-old Muslim woman who describes herself as "feminist, secular and veiled", is running for the far-left New Anti-Capitalist party (NPA) in the south-eastern region of Avignon.
    But, despite her insistence that there is no contradiction between her clothing and her political role, Moussaid's candidacy in the regional vote due in March has angered other feminists and politicians.
    In an echo of the controversy raised by recent moves to ban the full, face-covering veil in public places such as schools, hospitals and buses, critics have said that the young activist's headscarf, which conceals only her hair, goes against values of laïcité – secularism – and women's rights.


    Today, in a sign of how deep concerns are running, a leading feminist group announced it would file an official complaint against the NPA's list of candidates in the Vaucluse département to protest against what it called an "anti-secular, anti-feminist and anti-republican" stunt.


    "In choosing to endorse 'open' laïcité, the NPA is perverting the values of the Republic and suggesting we reread them in a manner which conforms with regressive visions of women," said the Ni Putes Ni Soumises (Neither Whores Nor Submissives) association in a statement.


    Others have expressed their shock at Besancenot's attempt to field a candidate who sees no problem with making an overt statement about her religion in the public sphere, a practice considered taboo.


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...carf-candidate
    There is no adjective to laïcité', not 'open' either, and it is not negotionable.
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 02-11-2010 at 02:49.
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  16. #76
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Banning stuff will never, ever work, unless we consider ourselves authoritarian barbarians, of course.

    Education(indoctrination, if you will) and debate is the key.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  17. #77
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Banning stuff will never, ever work
    You'd be surprised...

    How did Spain become uniformly Catholic? And how did Norway become uniformly Lutheran? What - all Norwegians read the Bible after the invention of the printing press and each one for herself decided Lutheranism was the proper theological interpretation?


    Debate? We just had one. The outcome is a surge in anti-Islamic and pro-secularism sentiment.
    Unfortunately, the two are hopelesly entangled. The headscarf, like the Swiss minaret, is a symbol, a scapegoat, a substitute for a deeper concern. One Europe has not yet learned to express in a civilised manner.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
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  18. #78
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    For consideration, a quick article describing Habermas' thoughts on the 'post-secular' society.

    Jürgen Habermas is perhaps Europe's foremost philosopher struggling with this issue. Two isssues: Europe stands alone in its secularism, in a world of resurging superstition. And, secondly, it falls due to disbelieving secularists to understand the convictions of religiously motivated fellow citizens.

    Last April Habermas presented a more systematic perspective on religion's role in contemporary society at an international conference on "Philosophy and Religion" at Poland's Lodz University. One of the novelties of Habermas's Lodz presentation, "Religion in the Public Sphere," was the commendable idea that "toleration" -- the bedrock of modern democratic culture -- is always a two-way street. Not only must believers tolerate others' beliefs, including the credos and convictions of nonbelievers; it falls due to disbelieving secularists, similarly, to appreciate the convictions of religiously motivated fellow citizens. From the standpoint of Habermas's "theory of communicative action," this stipulation suggests that we assume the standpoint of the other. It would be unrealistic and prejudicial to expect that religiously oriented citizens wholly abandon their most deeply held convictions upon entering the public sphere where, as a rule and justifiably, secular reasoning has become our default discursive mode.
    ]
    A nice read cher Louis. I always enjoyed Habermas. His idea of discourse as a means of enacting reality was and is the best answer to all that post modern stuff. The piece you cite here is a good one -- and very much embodies the attitude I take to the issue.
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  19. #79
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post


    There is no adjective to laïcité', not 'open' either, and it is not negotionable.
    Playing the Devils' advocate here: laïcité seems pretty intolerant towards other religions...

    A muslim working for the government isn't allowed to wear her veil; a catholic can't carry a tiny cross; is a Buddhist allowed to be bald when working for the government; a Jew carrying a kippah is "verboten!" ?

    Your laïcité forces itself upon others and apparently leaves no room for discussion, compromises or an open mind. Your concept is no better than [insert random intolerant version of a religion of your choice]. You cry for laïcité because "oh, teh evil religion has brought us bad things in the past", and in the process hypocritically apply similar methods (get rid of your veil/crossy/kippah/grow some hair on that skull or lose your job (= your income = your house = your car = your living standard)).

    Veil? Verboten!
    Tiny cross? Verboten!
    Keppah? Verboten!
    Laïcité? Yes! That's THE TRUTH! Laïcité? Yes! You've seen THE LIGHT! Salvation for you, enlightened one!


    Granted, the burning at the stake has been replaced by something more humane, but you're still not much better than any other intolerant religion.
    Last edited by Andres; 02-11-2010 at 10:06.
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    Playing the Devils' advocate here: laïcité seems pretty intolerant towards other religions...

    A muslim working for the government isn't allowed to wear her veil; a catholic can't carry a tiny cross; is a Buddhist allowed to be bald when working for the government; a Jew carrying a kippah is "verboten!" ?

    Your laïcité forces itself upon others and apparently leaves no room for discussion, compromises or an open mind. Your concept is no better than [insert random intolerant version of a religion of your choice]. You cry for laïcité because "oh, teh evil religion has brought us bad things in the past", and in the process hypocritically apply similar methods (get rid of your veil/crossy/kippah/grow some hair on that skull or lose your job (= your income = your house = your car = your living standard)).

    Veil? Verboten!
    Tiny cross? Verboten!
    Keppah? Verboten!
    Laïcité? Yes! That's THE TRUTH! Laïcité? Yes! You've seen THE LIGHT! Salvation for you, enlightened one!


    Granted, the burning at the stake has been replaced by something more humane, but you're still not much better than any other intolerant religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    I suppose this is all a matter of France vs. all your theocracies then. Or, possibly, of moderate and reasonable secular states vs. French hysteria. Either France is mad, or the rest of the world is. Not that this is an exceptional alignment.


    For what it's worth, the latest brutal attack. I suppose only Meneldil will understand the unspeakable horror of the French populist left turning theocratic.

    There is no adjective to laïcité', not 'open' either, and it is not negotionable.
    Quite so, replace "laicite" with "Catholicism", "Reason" with "God" and "The Republic" with "The Church" and Loius would read like a 17th Century Frenchman.

    France has more atheists than any other country in Europe, because it treats all religions with equal disdain.
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    I think the point with laïcité is basically: "no religion in public; religion in private only". So the point of “tolerance” is missing a key principle of laïcité: all religion is accepted as long as you keep it in private. No religion is accepted in public; because of concerns that were very much valid 200, 150, 100, or even 50 years ago. It is how the French roll and as I see it; it is very similar to the idea that free speech in public has its limits (i.e. slander is not acceptable in public) also originally a convention given the force of law because it is considered a necessary restriction to ensure rights and integrity of all people -- not just the individual.
    Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; 02-11-2010 at 12:48.
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios View Post
    I think the point with laïcité is basically: "no religion in public; religion in private only". So the point of “tolerance” is missing a key principle of laïcité: all religion is accepted as long as you keep it in private. No religion is accepted in public; because of concerns that were very much valid 200, 150, 100, or even 50 years ago. It is how the French roll and as I see it; it is very similar to the idea that free speech in public has its limits (i.e. slander is not acceptable in public) also originally a convention given the force of law because it is considered a necessary restriction to ensure rights and integrity of all people -- not just the individual.
    The problem being, however, that it prevents certain people from assuming public office, Sikhs and Muslims being the most obvious victims. It is actually only practicable in a predominately Christian country, ironically.
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  23. #83

    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Question this raises is of course: is this due to laïcité or due to unwilligness to adapt to French custom? IOW: Does laïcité prevent anyone from office merely because anyone happens to hold a religion, or are people prevented office because it requires laïcité and they are unwilling to conform to the custom?

    There is subtle difference there: is it on the laïcité to accomodate all, or is on the French to conform to laïcité in public? French law & custom suggest the latter: i.e. any Sikh or muslim is welcome to hold public office but not if they insist on expressing their religion while on duty. That is: it is on the individual to reconcile religious believes with public duties.

    Incidentally, similar practices exsist in Turkey; a predominately non-Christian country (so it is not as incompatible with Islam as might first seem). It is more of a cultural thing than strictly religious, I'd say.
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  24. #84
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    The problem being, however, that it prevents certain people from assuming public office, Sikhs and Muslims being the most obvious victims. It is actually only practicable in a predominately Christian country, ironically.
    If you want to work at a bank you have to wear a tie, you are hardly a victim if you refuse to wear a tie. Want to work in public office you don't wear religious symbols, I think it is perfectly reasonable. Not allowing muslim students to wear traditional clothes in schools is a stretch too far though, if they see that as harassment I don't have an answer for them, France goes a bit far there.

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    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    The reason I don't like the state atheism the French call laïcité is because I really don't see the problem with people wearing kippahs or headscarves to work. How exactly does that intrude on the "public sphere"? Sure I'd rather have them not wear their headscarves but there's no reason to force them not to. Smells like a state-sponsored promotion of atheism to me.
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    If you want to work at a bank you have to wear a tie, you are hardly a victim if you refuse to wear a tie. Want to work in public office you don't wear religious symbols, I think it is perfectly reasonable. Not allowing muslim students to wear traditional clothes in schools is a stretch too far though, if they see that as harassment I don't have an answer for them, France goes a bit far there.

    If you are a Sikh man you are required to wear a Turban, it is central to proper observance of the religious Law and was instituted by the first Guru. If a Turban is construed as a religious symbol, then Sikhs are effectively discriminated against in holding public office.

    Laicite is a religion that requires you to relinquish your other religion in order to follow it faithfully; if you don't you are restricted from certain parts of French society.

    I'm glad you raised the Turkish question, Tellos, but remember that the similar practices there do not sit so securely, to the extent that there have been several military coups to "restore secularism".
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard View Post
    The reason I don't like the state atheism the French call laïcité is because I really don't see the problem with people wearing kippahs or headscarves to work. How exactly does that intrude on the "public sphere"? Sure I'd rather have them not wear their headscarves but there's no reason to force them not to. Smells like a state-sponsored promotion of atheism to me.
    I don't really have a problem with it, in city hall I don't really care, schoolteacher neither really although I understand the argument, but I don't like telling people what to do, and hate it when they do that to me. But police, judges anything that is supposed to be neutral shouldn't have religious symbols.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    If you are a Sikh man you are required to wear a Turban
    So what it looks rediculous. Now a turban ok, but they probably want that ceremonial dagger as well. People should take some distance from their professional life, you aren't your job.

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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    ...but you are your religion.

    The Turban is mandatory, and the dagger can be stylised (as it's actually meant to be a sword).
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Secular Society Threatened?

    In the Indian army, they fashioned a special helmet to accomodate Sikhs. So it doesn't have to look ridiculous.
    "It ain't where you're from / it's where you're at."

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