Poll: When will China be Number One?

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Thread: When will China take the Crown?

  1. #1
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default When will China take the Crown?

    Quote Originally Posted by CNN
    You have five more years to learn Mandarin.

    Will China take the crown?

    Angus Maddison's forecast (which uses purchasing power parity) isn't built on outlandish assumptions. He assumes China's growth will slow way down year by year, and America's will average about 2.6% annually, which seems reasonable. But because China has grown so stupendously during the past decade, it should still be able to take the crown in just seven more years.
    If that happens, America will close out a 125-year run as the No. 1 economy. We assumed the title in 1890 from - guess who. Britain? France? No. The world's largest economy until 1890 was China's. That's why Maddison says he expects China to "resume its natural role as the world's largest economy by 2015." That scenario makes sense.



    China was the largest economy for centuries because everyone had the same type of economy - subsistence - and so the country with the most people would be economically biggest. Then the Industrial Revolution sent the West on a more prosperous path. Now the world is returning to a common economy, this time technology- and information-based, so once again population triumphs.



    http://money.cnn.com/2008/04/29/maga...ion=2008043005
    For Americans, 2008 is an important election year. But for much of the world, it is likely to be seen as the year that China moved to center stage, with the Olympics serving as the country's long-awaited coming-out party. The much-heralded advent of China as a global power is no longer a forecast but a reality. On issue after issue, China has become the second most important country on the planet. Consider what's happened already this past year. In 2007 China contributed more to global growth than the United States, the first time another country had done so since at least the 1930s. It also became the world's largest consumer, eclipsing the United States in four of the five basic food, energy and industrial commodities. And a few months ago China surpassed the United States to become the world's leading emitter of CO2. Whether it's trade, global warming, Darfur or North Korea, China has become the new x factor, without which no durable solution is possible.

    And yet the Chinese do not quite see themselves this way. Susan Shirk, the author of a recent book about the country, "The Fragile Superpower," tells a revealing tale. Whenever she mentions her title in America, people say to her, "Fragile? China doesn't seem fragile." But in China people say, "Superpower? China isn't a superpower."


    In fact it's both, and China's fragility is directly related to its extraordinary rise. Lawrence Summers has recently pointed out that during the Industrial Revolution the average European's living standards rose about 50 percent over the course of his lifetime (then about 40 years). In Asia, principally China, he calculates, the average person's living standards are set to rise by 10,000 percent in one lifetime! The scale and pace of growth in China has been staggering, utterly unprecedented in history—and it has produced equally staggering change. In two decades China has experienced the same degree of industrialization, urbanization and social transformation as Europe did in two centuries.
    Recall what China looked like only 30 years ago. It was a devastated country, one of the world's poorest, with a totalitarian state. It was just emerging from Mao Zedong's Cultural Revolution, which had destroyed universities, schools and factories, all to revitalize the revolution. Since then 400 million people have been lifted out of poverty in China—about 75 percent of the world's total poverty reduction over the last century. The country has built new cities and towns, roads and ports, and is planning for the future in impressive detail.


    http://www.newsweek.com/id/81588
    We are witnesses to one of the biggest events in world history. The full scale of the rise of China ecplises anything that the world has ever seen before. Never have so many people, in such a short amount of time, made so much progress as China has in three decades.

    For effect, both artocles above are two years old. Since then, the West has seen its financial system collapse, saved by the biggest loans in the history of mankind. China has been going from strenght to strenght. As have many other emerging economies.

    Power has definately shifted from the West to a multipolar world. A decade that began with neo-conservative dreams of using America's unrivalled hegemony to assert and prolong this hegemony, will end up in the history books as the one that saw the definitive end of Western hegemony. Economically and politically. Unfortunately morally too, but not quite culturally.

    For once, it is worth stating the obvious: China alone has twice the inhabitants of the EU and the US combined. This will have far-reaching consequences, not all of whom have fully sunk in.
    Ninety percent of the world's population does not live in Western countries, and they have awoken.
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  2. #2
    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    Soon. Very soon.

    And people are still surprised I'm going to study Sinology.
    This space intentionally left blank.

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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    '15 is do-able. Peking demands cash (in Euro's) for the US Bonds they hold, America can't pay, and defaults for the first (and last) time in it's history; leading to a run on the Fed, who has no backup like a regular bank, making the dollar worth less than the 7 cents it costs to print it. The Pension plans and Mutual Funds get 10 cents on the dollar for the Treasuries they hold, and 70-year olds go back to work for companies owned by the PRC People's Army, making crap product to sell to Africans.

    And never a shot fired.
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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    Even if China did surpass the USA as the world's largest economy, it would need to achieve the past 20 years of growth all over again, not once, twice or even three times, but four times to gain comparative per capita income with the United States, and by that time the USA will have grown some more, making the task even harder.

    Don't get me wrong, I think what China has experienced is the closest we'll ever come to witnessing a modern day miracle. Considering that consistently, since 1840, China had been repeatedly screwed over by the West, turning it into a nation of heroin addicts, stunting it's population and economic growth (China's population remained at about 400 million from 1800 until the Communist Revolution), and generally just treating it and the Chinese people like ****. For China to have not only shaken off the West, but to have achieved so much, so fast is incredible, and worthy of praise.

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    Guest Aemilius Paulus's Avatar
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    Arrow Re: When will China take the Crown?

    Remember how notoriously inaccurate such predictions are. Remember how they screamed that Japan will eclipse the US economy in the 80s. Take into account the similarities between Japan and China. Compare how the things said about Chinese economy now are nearly identical to the statements made about Japan thirty-twenty years ago. Take note of the real estate and stock bubble, that killed Japan, and the worries of the massive Chinese gov't spending which is feared to lead to another bubble.

    Now, China could very well avoid the fate of Japan, and it is very unlikely it will fall like that. But still, an export-driven economy is a dangerous thing, as the days of mercantilism have long passed and it is recognised that a balanced economy is superior to the China/Russia/Germany -esque export economies.

    Then again, with China's population, it is difficult to imagine any other fate for such a nation... Either a total collapse, or magnificent dominance. In any case, such Louis-esque enthusiastic rhetorical flourish on a certain subject is always to be taken with a grain of salt, no matter how eloquently it is presented, such as in this case.

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    Member Member Mete Han's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    Nevertheless, the future will be multipolared, and don't forget India, they share the same advantages with China, very cheap labor force and no worker rights...
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    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    Hopefully after my death.

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    Oni Member Samurai Waki's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    I'm hoping those Glaciers in the Himalayas melt first... if China really wants to take the stage they're going to have to make sweeping reforms in the actual liberty of it's populace.

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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus View Post
    Remember how notoriously inaccurate such predictions are. Remember how they screamed that Japan will eclipse the US economy in the 80s. Take into account the similarities between Japan and China. Compare how the things said about Chinese economy now are nearly identical to the statements made about Japan thirty-twenty years ago. Take note of the real estate and stock bubble, that killed Japan, and the worries of the massive Chinese gov't spending which is feared to lead to another bubble.
    China has way more capacity for expansion than Japan did in 1990. A lot of the current growth is, yes, government driven, but a lot of it is being spent on infrastructure and investment that China has needed for years, for example, China's health system is notoriously bad. There are also a lot of non-urbanised peasants in China that have yet to become cogs in the Cathay Engine.

    That said, there are problems. People tend to be happy with authoritarian regimes so long as life is good (See: 1930's Nazi Germany). If the economy did take a hike for some reason, such as a war between Taiwan and China causing a massive international backlash, then there is possibility for political change.

    I know that AP will have read this, but everyone else should find it an interesting read.


    http://www.economist.com/research/ar...ry_id=15270708
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    CHINA rebounded more swiftly from the global downturn than any other big economy, thanks largely to its enormous monetary and fiscal stimulus. In the year to the fourth quarter of 2009, its real GDP is estimated to have grown by more than 10%. But many sceptics claim that its recovery is built on wobbly foundations. Indeed, they say, China now looks ominously like Japan in the late 1980s before its bubble burst and two lost decades of sluggish growth began. Worse, were China to falter now, while the recovery in rich countries is still fragile, it would be a severe blow not just at home but to the whole of the world economy.
    On the face of it, the similarities between China today and bubble-era Japan are worrying. Extraordinarily high saving and an undervalued exchange rate have fuelled rapid export-led growth and the world’s biggest current-account surplus. Chronic overinvestment has, it is argued, resulted in vast excess capacity and falling returns on capital. A flood of bank lending threatens a future surge in bad loans, while markets for shares and property look dangerously frothy.
    Just as in the late 1980s, when Japan’s economy was tipped to overtake America’s, China’s strong rebound has led many to proclaim that it will become number one sooner than expected. In contrast, a recent flurry of bearish reports warn that China’s economy could soon implode. James Chanos, a hedge-fund investor (and one of the first analysts to spot that Enron’s profits were pure fiction), says that China is “Dubai times 1,000, or worse”. Another hedge fund, Pivot Capital Management, argues that the chances of a hard landing, with a slump in capital spending and a banking crisis, are increasing.
    Scary stuff. However, a close inspection of pessimists’ three main concerns—overvalued asset prices, overinvestment and excessive bank lending—suggests that China’s economy is more robust than they think. Start with asset markets. Chinese share prices are nowhere near as giddy as Japan’s were in the late 1980s. In 1989 Tokyo’s stockmarket had a price-earnings ratio of almost 70; today’s figure for Shanghai A shares is 28, well below its long-run average of 37. Granted, prices jumped by 80% last year, but markets in other large emerging economies went up even more: Brazil, India and Russia rose by an average of 120% in dollar terms. And Chinese profits have rebounded faster than those elsewhere. In the three months to November, industrial profits were 70% higher than a year before.
    China’s property market is certainly hot. Prices of new apartments in Beijing and Shanghai leapt by 50-60% during 2009. Some lavish projects have much in common with those in Dubai—notably “The World”, a luxury development in Tianjin, 120km (75 miles) from Beijing, in which homes will be arranged as a map of the world, along with the world’s biggest indoor ski slope and a seven-star hotel.


    Average home prices nationally, however, cannot yet be called a bubble. On January 14th the National Development and Reform Commission reported that average prices in 70 cities had climbed by 8% in the year to December, the fastest pace for 18 months; other measures suggest a bigger rise. But this followed a fall in prices in 2008. By most measures average prices have fallen relative to incomes in the past decade (see chart 1).
    The most cited evidence of a bubble—and hence of impending collapse—is the ratio of average home prices to average annual household incomes. This is almost ten in China; in most developed economies it is only four or five. However, Tao Wang, an economist at UBS, argues that this rich-world yardstick is misleading. Chinese homebuyers do not have average incomes but come largely from the richest 20-30% of the urban population. Using this group’s average income, the ratio falls to rich-world levels. In Japan the price-income ratio hit 18 in 1990, obliging some buyers to take out 100-year mortgages.
    Furthermore, Chinese homes carry much less debt than Japanese properties did 20 years ago. One-quarter of Chinese buyers pay cash. The average mortgage covers only about half of a property’s value. Owner-occupiers must make a minimum deposit of 20%, investors one of 40%. Chinese households’ total debt stands at only 35% of their disposable income, compared with 130% in Japan in 1990.
    China’s property boom is being financed mainly by saving, not bank lending. According to Yan Wang, an economist at BCA Research, a Canadian firm, only about one-fifth of the cost of new construction (commercial and residential) is financed by bank lending. Loans to homebuyers and property developers account for only 17% of Chinese banks’ total, against 56% for American banks. A bubble pumped up by saving is much less dangerous than one fuelled by credit. When the market begins to crack, highly leveraged speculators are forced to sell, pushing prices lower, which causes more borrowers to default.
    Even if China does not (yet) have a credit-fuelled housing bubble, the fact that property prices in Beijing and Shanghai are beyond the reach of most ordinary people is a serious social problem. The government has not kept its promise to build more low-cost housing, and it is clearly worried about rising prices. In an attempt to thwart speculators, it has reimposed a sales tax on homes sold within five years, has tightened the stricter rules on mortgages for investment properties and is trying to crack down on illegal flows of foreign capital into the property market. The government does not want to come down too hard, as it did in 2007 by cutting off credit, because it needs a lively property sector to support economic recovery. But if it does not tighten policy soon, a full-blown bubble is likely to inflate.
    The world’s capital

    China’s second apparent point of similarity to Japan is overinvestment. Total fixed investment jumped to an estimated 47% of GDP last year—ten points more than in Japan at its peak. Chinese investment is certainly high: in most developed countries it accounts for around 20% of GDP. But you cannot infer waste from a high investment ratio alone. It is hard to argue that China has added too much to its capital stock when, per person, it has only about 5% of what America or Japan has. China does have excess capacity in some industries, such as steel and cement. But across the economy as a whole, concerns about overinvestment tend to be exaggerated.
    Pivot Capital Management points to China’s incremental capital-output ratio (ICOR), which is calculated as annual investment divided by the annual increase in GDP, as evidence of the collapsing efficiency of investment. Pivot argues that in 2009 China’s ICOR was more than double its average in the 1980s and 1990s, implying that it required much more investment to generate an additional unit of output. However, it is misleading to look at the ICOR for a single year. With slower GDP growth, because of a collapse in global demand, the ICOR rose sharply everywhere. The return to investment in terms of growth over a longer period is more informative. Measuring this way, BCA Research finds no significant increase in China’s ICOR over the past three decades.
    Mr Chanos has drawn parallels between China and the huge misallocation of resources in the Soviet Union, arguing that China is heading the same way. The best measure of efficiency is total factor productivity (TFP), the increase in output not directly accounted for by extra inputs of capital and labour. If China were as wasteful as Mr Chanos contends, its TFP growth would be negative, as the Soviet Union’s was. Yet over the past two decades China has enjoyed the fastest growth in TFP of any country in the world.
    Even in industries which clearly do have excess capacity, China’s critics overstate their case. A recent report by the European Union Chamber of Commerce in China estimates that in early 2009 the steel industry was operating at only 72% of capacity. That was at the depth of the global downturn. Demand has picked up strongly since then. The report claims that the industry’s overcapacity is illustrated by “a startling figure”: in 2008, China’s output of steel per person was higher than America’s. So what? At China’s stage of industrialisation it should use a lot of steel. A more relevant yardstick is the America of the early 20th century. According to Ms Wang of UBS, China’s steel capacity of almost 0.5 tonnes per person is slightly lower than America’s output in 1920 (0.6 tonnes) and far below Japan’s peak of 1.1 tonnes in 1973.


    Many commentators complain that China’s capital-spending spree last year has merely exacerbated its industrial overcapacity. However, the boom was driven mainly by infrastructure investment, whereas investment in manufacturing slowed quite sharply (see chart 2). Given the scale of the spending, some money is sure to have been wasted, but by and large, investment in roads, railways and the electricity grid will help China sustain its growth in the years ahead.
    Some analysts disagree. Pivot, for instance, argues that China’s infrastructure has already reached an advanced level. It has six of the world’s ten longest bridges and it boasts the world’s fastest train; there is little room for further productive investment. That is nonsense. A country in which two-fifths of villages lack a paved road to the nearest market town still has plenty of scope for building roads. The same goes for railways. Again, a comparison of China today with the America of a century ago is pertinent. China has roughly the same land area as America, but 13 times more people than the United States did then. Yet on current plans it will have only 110,000km of railway by 2012, compared with more than 400,000km in America in 1916. Unlike Japan, which built “bridges to nowhere” to prop up its economy, China needs better infrastructure.
    It is true that in the short term, the revenue from some infrastructure projects may not be enough to service debts, so the government will have to cover losses. But in the long term such projects should lift productivity across the economy. During Britain’s railway mania in the mid-19th century, few railways made a decent financial return, but they brought huge long-term economic benefits.
    The biggest cause for worry about China is the third point of similarity to Japan: the recent tidal wave of bank lending. Total credit jumped by more than 30% last year. Even assuming that this slows to less than 20% this year, as the government has hinted, total credit outstanding could hit 135% of GDP by December. The authorities are perturbed. This week they increased banks’ reserve requirement ratio by half a percentage point. They have also raised the yield on central-bank bills.

    However, too many commentators talk as if Chinese banks have been on a lending binge for years. Instead, the spurt in 2009, which was engineered by the government to revive the economy, followed several years in which credit grew more slowly than GDP (see chart 3). Michael Buchanan, of Goldman Sachs, estimates that since 2004 China’s excess credit (the gap between the growth rates of credit and nominal GDP) has risen by less than in most developed economies.
    Even so, recent lending has been excessive; combined with overcapacity in some industries, it is likely to cause an increase in banks’ non-performing loans. Ms Wang calculates that if 20% of all new lending last year and another 10% of this year’s lending turned bad, this would create new bad loans equivalent to 5.5% of GDP by 2012, on top of 2% now. That is far from trivial, but well below the 40% of GDP that bad loans amounted to in the late 1990s.
    Much of the past year’s bank lending should really be viewed as a form of fiscal stimulus. Infrastructure projects that have little hope of repaying loans will end up back on the government’s books. It would have been much better if such projects had been financed more transparently through the government’s budget, but the important question is whether the state can afford to cover the losses.
    Official gross government debt is less than 20% of GDP, but China bears argue that this is an understatement, because it excludes local-government debt and the bonds issued by the asset-management companies that took over banks’ previous non-performing loans. Total government debt could be 50% of GDP. But that is well below the average ratio in rich countries, of around 90%. Moreover, the Chinese government owns lots of assets, for example shares of listed companies which are worth 35% of GDP.
    Yin and yang

    Even if, as argued above, concerns about a financial crash in China are premature, the risks of a dangerous bubble and excessive investment will clearly increase if credit continues to expand at its recent pace. The stitching on the Chinese economy could fray and burst. Would that imply the end of China’s era of rapid growth?
    Predictions that China is heading for a prolonged Japanese-style slump ignore big differences between China today and Japan in the late 1980s. Japan was already a mature, developed economy, with a GDP per person close to that of America. China is still a poor, developing country, whose GDP per person is less than one-tenth of America’s or Japan’s. It has ample room to play catch-up with rich economies by adding to its capital stock, importing foreign technology and boosting productivity by shifting labour from farms to factories. This would make it easier for China to recover from the bursting of a bubble.

    Chart 4 examines the relationship between growth rates and income per head for six Asian economies. Each plot shows a country’s growth rate and GDP per person relative to America’s for successive ten-year periods, starting when their rapid growth took off. It illustrates how growth rates slow as economies catch up with America, the technological leader. The fact that China’s GDP per head is much lower than Japan’s in the 1980s suggests that its growth potential over the next decade is much higher. Even though China’s labour force will start shrinking after 2016, rapid productivity gains mean that its trend GDP growth rate is still around 8%, down from 10% in the past decade.
    Japan’s stockmarket and land-price bubbles in the early 1960s offer a better (and more cheerful) analogy to China than the 1980s bubble era does. Japan’s economy was poorer then, although relative to America its GDP per person was more than double China’s today, and its trend rate of growth was around 9%. According to HSBC, after the bubble burst in 1962-65, Japan’s annual growth rate dipped to just under 6%, but then quickly rebounded to 10% for much of the next decade.
    South Korea and Taiwan, which experienced big stockmarket bubbles in the 1980s, are also worth examining. In the five years to 1990, Taipei’s stockmarket surged by 1,600% (in dollar terms) and Seoul’s by 700%, easily beating Tokyo’s 450% gain in the same period. After share prices slumped, annual growth in both South Korea and Taiwan slowed to around 6%, but soon regained its previous pace of 7-8%.
    The higher a country’s potential growth rate, the easier it is for the economy to recover after a bubble bursts, so long as its fiscal and external finances are in reasonable shape. Rapid growth in nominal GDP means that asset prices do not need to fall so far to regain fair value, bad loans are easier to work off and excess capacity can be more quickly absorbed by rising demand. The experience of Japan in the 1960s suggests that if China’s bubble bursts, it will hurt growth temporarily but not lead to prolonged stagnation.
    However, it is Japan’s experience after the 1980s that most influences the thinking of policymakers in Beijing. Many blame Japan’s deflation and its lost decades of growth on the fact that its government caved in to American demands for an appreciation of the yen. In 1985 central banks in the big rich economies agreed, in the Plaza Accord, to intervene to push down the dollar. By 1988 the yen had risen by more than 100% against the greenback. One reason why policymakers in Beijing have resisted a big rise in the yuan is that they fear it could send their economy, like Japan’s, into a deflationary slump.
    The wrong lesson


    Yet Japan’s real mistake was not that it allowed the yen to rise, but that it had previously resisted an appreciation for too long, so that when it did happen the yen soared. A second error was that Japan tried to offset the adverse economic effects of a strong yen with over-lax monetary policy. If policy had been tighter, the financial bubble would have been smaller and its aftermath less painful.
    This offers two important lessons to China. First, it is better to let the exchange rate rise sooner and more gradually than to risk a much sharper appreciation later. Second, monetary policy should not be too slack. Raising reserve requirements is a small step in the right direction. Despite the bears’ growling, China’s economic collapse is neither imminent nor inevitable. But if it continues to draw the wrong lesson from the tale of Japan, then one day its economy may look just as tatty.


    I've bolded the relevant bits, as I know you're all lazy

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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    China as biggest economy? Quite possible. Not by 2015 I'd say, unless USA/EU take another massive hit in that time span. But weirder things have happened. Like a car company being, globally, the single biggest hedge fund for a day.

    But even then the language of the world isn't going to move away from English. Au contraire: China and the rest of Asia are moving towards the norm of being bilingual with English as secondary language (lingua franca). English is easy to come to grips with, presents access to a global market from USA, to Europe, to Japan.
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    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    We are witnesses to one of the biggest events in world history. The full scale of the rise of China ecplises anything that the world has ever seen before. Never have so many people, in such a short amount of time, made so much progress as China has in three decades.

    For effect, both artocles above are two years old. Since then, the West has seen its financial system collapse, saved by the biggest loans in the history of mankind. China has been going from strenght to strenght. As have many other emerging economies.

    Power has definately shifted from the West to a multipolar world. A decade that began with neo-conservative dreams of using America's unrivalled hegemony to assert and prolong this hegemony, will end up in the history books as the one that saw the definitive end of Western hegemony. Economically and politically. Unfortunately morally too, but not quite culturally.

    For once, it is worth stating the obvious: China alone has twice the inhabitants of the EU and the US combined. This will have far-reaching consequences, not all of whom have fully sunk in.
    Ninety percent of the world's population does not live in Western countries, and they have awoken.


    Yawn. Growth looks cool in the newspaper but China has an immense gap to overcome. China's economy currently is something like a third the size of the U.S.'s (i.e. even less relative to the EU). Given its current growth, it'll achieve economic parity with the United States somewhere in the 2020s. Parity in productivity, military power, technological prowess and cultural importance will be things the Chinese will have to wait on even longer. Neoconservative dreams were unrealistic to begin with (American hegemony was already gone by the time they gained power). Western nations together, meanwhile, still account for more than 40% of world economic output and 95% of defense spending. Chinese economic growth is dependent on Western desire for consumption (scenarios like KukriKhan's are about as likely as the sky falling on our heads), and is fueled for a very sizeable part by Western investment. I might also add we've heard all of this before (the Soviet Union, Japan... hey, where'd they go?).

    None of this takes away the fact of rapid Chinese growth (or that of other "Third World" countries). And none of this takes away the fact that, in time, these nations will truly be able to surpass us. But that is a whole lot further away than next year. In addition, far from it being unprecented, once (and still: if) China becomes the largest economy (alongside India, I surmise, something the OP seems to forget), it will merely be restoring the way the world was before the West underwent the Industrial Revolution, and the world's greatest economies resided in South and East Asia.

    We aren't gone, people. Far from it. Politically and economically our influence and our power may be declining, yes, but they do so relative to the rest of the world. And that part of the world has so very far to go before they've caught up with us. I'll give it until 2030 before the U.S. has to face meaningful challenges to its position as top baboon on the rock. A rock that the Western monkeys have been ruling for more or less 250 years...

    P.S. "Will end" ...? The 21st century's first decade ended almost three months ago...
    Last edited by The Wizard; 02-20-2010 at 01:44.
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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    [QUOTELouis]Ninety percent of the world's population does not live in Western countries, and they have awoken.[/QUOTE]

    Ninety is high by about 35%, non?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard
    ...scenarios like KukriKhan's are about as likely as the sky falling on our heads
    Yes, I was exploring whether it could happen, not that it shall. The sky does occasionally fall on our heads; that said: to quickly switch from western to eastern dominance in the world would require about a dozen factors going wrong for the West, whilst simultaneously those dozen factors all broke favorably for the East. Statistically unlikely... but not impossible.
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    Guest Aemilius Paulus's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    Depends how you define West. How do you define it?

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    This is why our integration into a strong economic relationship with the EU and India while passively undermining China is so important.
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  15. #15
    Guest Aemilius Paulus's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    This is why our integration into a strong economic relationship with the EU and India while passively undermining China is so important.
    Yeah, 'cause one Cold War is not enough - the Yanks gotta start a new one

  16. #16
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus View Post
    Remember how notoriously inaccurate such predictions are. Remember how they screamed that Japan will eclipse the US economy in the 80s. Take into account the similarities between Japan and China. Compare how the things said about Chinese economy now are nearly identical to the statements made about Japan thirty-twenty years ago. Take note of the real estate and stock bubble, that killed Japan, and the worries of the massive Chinese gov't spending which is feared to lead to another bubble.
    And in 1840, Alexis de Tocqueville made the prediction that the 20th century would see Russia and the US as the two rivalling superpowers.

    Some predictions are 'more equal' than equal predictions.

    Japan isn't dead. It is alive and kicking, rivalled in living standards by only the best of the west. It merely experienced slumbering growth.
    China is also not Japan. Most strikingly, it is ten times its size. Most emerging nations have emerged as part of an existing system. Just how a country that is larger than all other traditional industrialised nations combined can be incorporated within such a system is still a big question. Who will be incorporated into whom? Other emerging markets are only further complicating this question.

    As for India - it will grow, but I have less faith in it than in China.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Chongqing. Most people will have never heard of it. It is a provincial town. It is three times the size of Paris.



    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuff
    This is why our integration into a strong economic relationship with the EU and India while passively undermining China is so important.
    I wouldn't be surpised if within our lifetime quarrels between democracies will be looked at with bittersweet nostalgia to a time when we could all afford such luxury.



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard
    P.S. "Will end" ...? The 21st century's first decade ended almost three months ago...
    Look, I don't know what kind of dimwits you are accustomed to, but I am getting a bit tired of your constantly adressing me as if I'm one too. Read:

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis
    A decade that began with neo-conservative dreams of using America's unrivalled hegemony to assert and prolong this hegemony, will end up in the history books as the one that saw the definitive end of Western hegemony.
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 02-21-2010 at 23:54.
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  17. #17
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    2015 seems too optimistic.
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  18. #18
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    I'd say too pessimistic from my American perspective :P

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  19. #19
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meneldil View Post
    Hopefully after my death.
    agreed.

    i voted 2050 because while they will eventually hit top-dog status it will never be as clear-cut or as commanding as that enjoyed by Britain or the US due to the contradicitions of its own demographics.

    http://whatmatters.mckinseydigital.c...-china-is-no-1
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  20. #20
    Member Member Boohugh's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    I voted Gah (although not for Texas!) as I don't think anyone will emerge as a new hegemon anytime soon (and by soon I mean at least 50-100 years). The world has slowly been shifting to a multipolar one and I believe this trend will continue for the foreseeable future. Economically, the USA, EU, China and India will emerge as competing powers with nobody taking a commanding lead (I think the world has become too globalised for anyone to pull too far ahead, it would start to unbalance things and market forces would pull it back down). Politically, it's harder to call though; I think the USA will continue to try and lead things, although it is and will continue to be forced to cooperate with the EU or China to achieve it's aims, the EU could become a serious political force on the world stage if it got it's act together, but in-fighting will probably prevent this happening and China is starting to flex it's muscles but it will take time for it to learn what it wants/is able to do without overstepping it's bounds.

  21. #21
    Lesbian Rebel Member Mikeus Caesar's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    It's possible, but there are a lot of other factors that get in the way of China's potential superiority. For starters, the massive problem of an ageing population, the melting glaciers in the Himalayas, a crazy high imbalance between the male and female population....i'm quite sure there are other problems that i forget.

    And to be quite honest, the rise of China scares me. A huge, fascist monolith where no one cares about you or your problems, and just the pursuit of profit.
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  22. #22
    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    万岁中国!中国是世界的中心!
    (Lit. Translation: 10000 years China! China is World's center! / Translation: Long live China! China is the center of the world!)

    Learning Mandarin rocks. Not only do I know the language of the collapsing hegemon, but I'm beginning to know the language of the forthcoming hegemon. And it shall be of great use in my career, I bet.
    Last edited by Jolt; 02-20-2010 at 11:54.
    BLARGH!

  23. #23
    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    And in 1840, Alexis de Toqueville made the prediction that the 20th century would see Russia and the US as the two rivalling superpowers.

    Some predictions are 'more equal' than equal predictions.
    A prediction made under influence of the horribly incorrect theory that big countries naturally get into conflict with each other. De Tocqueville's prediction is basically a lucky guess, which I might add came true due to completely unrelated factors.

    Chongqing. Most people will have never heard of it. It is a provincial town. It is three times the size of Paris.
    That's mostly because it's also geographically three times the size of Paris. The city itself, with a population of 5 million, is, while large, smaller than Paris. Anyhow, it's also the most important industrial area in China's hinterland, not just some random "provincial town".

    Look, I don't know what kind of dimwits you are accustomed to, but I am getting a bit tired of your constantly adressing me as if I'm one too.
    Whoa, slow down, sparky. I was merely inquisitive (and failed at communicating that, apparently). Must have misread, my bad

    (As an aside, even then it'd be incorrect, seeing as American hegemony had ended long before Bush's election)
    Last edited by The Wizard; 02-20-2010 at 15:53.
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  24. #24
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    Chinas demographic problems will be there own undoing.

    Which is unfortunate considering they did it to themselves.

    India is the perfect storm of raw potential and a youth base ready to go.
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  25. #25
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    I believe that China will never achieve the sort of hegemony this thread purports it will get.

    1 China is pretty much demographically destined to become old before it gets the chance to be rich.

    2 China has historically had problems with the poverty of its interior versus the coastal areas the usual cure is equalization of the wealth.

    3 China is in the middle of a massive bubble that will pop we in the west are not buying stuff yet investment in property is booming.

    4 China uses cheap labor to produce consumer goods and uses the money to support western consumption very little is used to improve social conditions and even less of it is used in the interior in order to ensure a ready cheap workforce.

    Basically big numbers look cool but the average is key and china only has a good one due to the numbers involved the reality is crushing poverty.

    India will suceed in the longterm because it is democratic and increasing.
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  26. #26
    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    Chongqing. Most people will have never heard of it. It is a provincial town. It is three times the size of Paris.
    That analogy would be appropriate if Paris was the size of the Czech Republic. Most of Chongqing's muncipal area is rural, and very fertile land.

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    I believe that China will never achieve the sort of hegemony this thread purports it will get.

    1 China is pretty much demographically destined to become old before it gets the chance to be rich.

    2 China has historically had problems with the poverty of its interior versus the coastal areas the usual cure is equalization of the wealth.
    Very good points.

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    3 China is in the middle of a massive bubble that will pop we in the west are not buying stuff yet investment in property is booming.

    4 China uses cheap labor to produce consumer goods and uses the money to support western consumption very little is used to improve social conditions and even less of it is used in the interior in order to ensure a ready cheap workforce.
    These are not so much. My article from the Economist explained why No. 3 is a minor concern. And half of China's population live in the countryside. There is no need to improve social conditions, much the same as why America in the 1910's didn't bother improving conditions for their limitless supply of immigrants.

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    India will suceed in the longterm because it is democratic and increasing.
    That might be what brings it to it's knees. India's population growth will only slow with female education, which is lacking. But I do agree that India may still ultimately be more successful.

    Personally, I like Brazil. Democratic, booming economy, nice population growth rate. Brazil ticks all the boxes.

  27. #27
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    4 China uses cheap labor to produce consumer goods and uses the money to support western consumption very little is used to improve social conditions and even less of it is used in the interior in order to ensure a ready cheap workforce.

    These are not so much. My article from the Economist explained why No. 3 is a minor concern. And half of China's population live in the countryside. There is no need to improve social conditions, much the same as why America in the 1910's didn't bother improving conditions for their limitless supply of immigrants.


    That might be what brings it to it's knees. India's population growth will only slow with female education, which is lacking. But I do agree that India may still ultimately be more successful.

    Personally, I like Brazil. Democratic, booming economy, nice population growth rate. Brazil ticks all the boxes.
    My fault in trying to be too succint in a really complex statement. In 1910 america still had plenty room for expansion in both agricultural and industrial goods basically the goodies were not all taken already by the nobility in China thats is not the case the readies are gone but at least they have rubbishy low wage jobs.

    The thing is if china continues to support western consumption instead of spending it on its own people it will cause social problems once they try to head this off they have two choices spend on there own people and endanger the low wage jobs or crackdown and equalize the wealth.

    And on female education in India you forgot that female participation in the workforce is what drives an economy through the roof just think double income families in a nation of billion plus.
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 02-20-2010 at 22:58.
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    One point that I do not see mentioned is that with increased wealth and increase numbers of Chinese able to afford luxury items, the Chinese economy is best equipped to serve another billion or so customers. China itself can be a very lucrative market for the Chinese economy as it is, there is relatively little change needed then.

    The key will be whether or not the Chinese state can guarantee some basic social security items chief among which is a steady food supply. Chinese people are not just consuming more food than ever, but they have been wasting the best part of their country for over half a century -- as a result of which Beijing is now familiar with dust bowls simply because the fertile banks of the yellow river have been stripped from the vegetation that keeps the fertile soil from eroding away. And there will be a very real issue should the Chinese find that they must import all their food because their farmers have become office employees.
    Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; 02-21-2010 at 00:24.
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  29. #29
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post

    India is the perfect storm of raw potential and a youth base ready to go.
    not as long as it remains democratic, which sadly makes it a more appealing candidate for hegemony, but that same democracy can never bring about the speed of growth achieved by a authoritarian chine. india will narrow the gap with china in the long-term, but that will be because of a better demographic make-up not because of democracy in the short or mid-term:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/pe...up_with_China/

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/de...ap-with-china/
    Last edited by Furunculus; 02-21-2010 at 11:27.
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  30. #30
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: When will China take the Crown?

    Are we talking economically or about global dominance? Economically speaking i would say it pretty much depends whether EU will continue expanding while maintaining stability. If we are talking about global dominance. Id say that i dont believe any state will achieve hegemony during this century, but world will have atleast three major global powers including EU, US and China.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

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