Change?

[The Stranger]

i hope we never will. imagine how life would be if everyone would question authority, if everyone would be a rational individual that would be sceptic about everything someone else would say. a great project like that pyramids would never be accomplished. same for many other things.

the problem i have is that too few people are questioning now, and they are not questioning everything, some things are left unchallenged.

[Viking]

a great project like that pyramids would never be accomplished. same for many other things.

I allow myself to question the loss of value ; I will not let it go unchallenged.

[HoreTore]

i hope we never will. imagine how life would be if everyone would question authority, if everyone would be a rational individual that would be sceptic about everything someone else would say. a great project like that pyramids would never be accomplished. same for many other things.

the problem i have is that too few people are questioning now, and they are not questioning everything, some things are left unchallenged.

Bah, that makes no sense.

The pyramids could very well be completed if everyone questioned authority, IF everyone agreed that building them was a good thing and not an unneccessary waste of human life and resources.

The more authority has disappeared, the more freedom people are given and the more every individual is allowed to think for himself, the more progress humanity has progressed. Never before has authority been so absent, never before has every individual human been more rational. And never before have we seen progress like we see today.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The more authority has disappeared, the more freedom people are given and the more every individual is allowed to think for himself, the more progress humanity has progressed. Never before has authority been so absent, never before has every individual human been more rational. And never before have we seen progress like we see today.

I don't think you can apply such ideas to every point in human history and expect them to work. The comfortable life we enjoy in today's civilised society is a result of thousands of years of the development of increasingly centralised and powerful systems of government, increasingly concentrated in the hands of fewer individuals with each stage (from tribal chiefs, to nobles, to feudal monarchs, to national absolutist monarchs etc). After all, progress has often been faster during wars.

[The Stranger]

Bah, that makes no sense.

The more authority has disappeared, the more freedom people are given and the more every individual is allowed to think for himself, the more progress humanity has progressed. Never before has authority been so absent, never before has every individual human been more rational. And never before have we seen progress like we see today.

thats only true if people are free rational agents, which is still under question... (hehe low i know.)

Never before has authority been so absent, never before has every individual human been more rational. And never before have we seen progress like we see today.

and i actually doubt that very much. never since the dawn of modern times has humanity performed and suffered so many sickening deeds. mysticism is flourishing more and more than the few centuries before. and i think even though it is true that centralised authority is pretty much absent, humans are very far from being free. they are controlled a lot, they just dont realise it. and what's worse, no one knows who or what is in charge.

The pyramids could very well be completed if everyone questioned authority, IF everyone agreed that building them was a good thing and not an unneccessary waste of human life and resources.

what is the realistic chance of that happening? cmon...

[HoreTore]

I don't think you can apply such ideas to every point in human history and expect them to work. The comfortable life we enjoy in today's civilised society is a result of thousands of years of the development of increasingly centralised and powerful systems of government, increasingly concentrated in the hands of fewer individuals with each stage (from tribal chiefs, to nobles, to feudal monarchs, to national absolutist monarchs etc). After all, progress has often been faster during wars.

We've become more and more centralized, you say? Meet the Spartans of ancient greece and the Italian city-states of the middle ages. While countries like France may have gone from decentralization to centralized authority, others have gone the other way.

[QUOTE=The Stranger;2437452]thats only true if people are free rational agents, which is still under question... (hehe low i know.)

No, rationality is not a requirement.

and i actually doubt that very much. never since the dawn of modern times has humanity performed and suffered so many sickening deeds. mysticism is flourishing more and more than the few centuries before. and i think even though it is true that centralised authority is pretty much absent, humans are very far from being free. they are controlled a lot, they just dont realise it. and what's worse, no one knows who or what is in charge.

We've committed the worst deeds this century? Nonsense. Hitler is the worst scumbag of modern times. Genghis Khan still killed plenty more than he did. You think the Gestapo were cruel? Meet the execution methods one millennia ago, like the "spread eagle" of the vikings, where a living human is cut up in the middle of his chest, before both sides of the ribcage is broken to each side, thus resebmling an eagle spreading its wings. You think we're controlled now? Read up on Sparta, no dictatorship since has even come close to the degree of control from cradle to the grave that the spartans achieved.

what is the realistic chance of that happening? cmon...

Zero, because building the Pyramids is a complete waste of time and human life. A greater project we actually need, the internet, was built in a few years, however.

[Rhyfelwyr]

We've become more and more centralized, you say? Meet the Spartans of ancient greece and the Italian city-states of the middle ages. While countries like France may have gone from decentralization to centralized authority, others have gone the other way.

Exceptions don't prove the rule when compared against the greater part of the development of human society. In any case, Greece or Italy today are much more centralised than they ever were in the past, considering the large degree of autonomy these city states tended to have.

[HoreTore]

Exceptions don't prove the rule when compared against the greater part of the development of human society. In any case, Greece or Italy today are much more centralised than they ever were in the past, considering the large degree of autonomy these city states tended to have.

Ancient Sparta was EXTREMELY centralized compared to current day Greece, and the Roman Empire of the 1st century was much more centralized than the city-states of the 15th century was.

[The Stranger]

Ancient Sparta was EXTREMELY centralized compared to current day Greece, and the Roman Empire of the 1st century was much more centralized than the city-states of the 15th century was.

its easy to centralise a city with just a few ten thousand inhabitants. i would like to see them exert the same level of control over millions.

but anyhow we're now going a bit offtopic.

[The Stranger]

[QUOTE]

thats only true if people are free rational agents, which is still under question... (hehe low i know.)

No, rationality is not a requirement.

oke a free agent... which in this debate will come down to almost equal.

We've committed the worst deeds this century? Nonsense. Hitler is the worst scumbag of modern times. Genghis Khan still killed plenty more than he did. You think the Gestapo were cruel? Meet the execution methods one millennia ago, like the "spread eagle" of the vikings, where a living human is cut up in the middle of his chest, before both sides of the ribcage is broken to each side, thus resebmling an eagle spreading its wings. You think we're controlled now? Read up on Sparta, no dictatorship since has even come close to the degree of control from cradle to the grave that the spartans achieved.

i meant the 20th century. not the 21st. ofcourse there were places that had worse methods, more blunt and maybe even more painful. but nowhere ever have we seen such ruthless ideologistic orientated mass murdering, solely based on an atribute a person can't control, his (ancestral) history. Genghis may have killed more, but he wouldnt kill a man for being just chinese, and do the same to every other chinese. And yes, sparta may have been very controlled. but most people in the west (or on the globe) during that time were not under a form of centralised (or even decentralised) government that could enforce their laws everywhere and instantly. which seems to be the case now in (atleast in the west).

Zero, because building the Pyramids is a complete waste of time and human life. A greater project we actually need, the internet, was built in a few years, however.

yes it was. but again i doubt it would have been achieved if everyone would question its need for production, way of production, price of production, place of production, spread of use, rights of production etc etc etc.

[HoreTore]

yes it was. but again i doubt it would have been achieved if everyone would question its need for production, way of production, price of production, place of production, spread of use, rights of production etc etc etc.

Everyone has constantly questioned teh interwebs, from religious fundies who believe it to be satan himself to conspiracy nuts who believe it's another way for ze governmentz to extend their mind-control over us all.