Departed Dethy Mafia II [Concluded]

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Mafia or not, I wouldn't do this in a normal game; I've never played Dethy or a game with only five players. There were so few of us, and I was so underfire, I revealed my role because I felt there was no real choice.

Which, of course, I didn't. The structure of your arguments against me left little room for movement; you seemed 100% convinced that I was the mafia, without any apparant chance it could be JHT, Methos or Double A. I don't really think that's the right way to go about playing the game, and if you had followed through with your lynch on Day One... well then the game would have been lost earlier.

While I knew that multiple people investigating me wasn't going to be a winning strategy for town, I didn't really have a choice but suggest it. That's all there was to it.

WIFOM doesn't work well as a defense though. If you try and use it to defend yourself, people who think you are suspicious will always take the mafia side of the wifom. I know this from many many past experiences, lol. You didn't exactly believe what I said about "I wouldn't have switched my vote to double A if I was mafia" did you?

All those kind of arguments don't work well, and are most often used by mafia when the don't have any other defense. I think mine at the end was strong enough to put out there, it's possible I shouldn't have mentioned it and hoped someone else brought it up (that always gives it more weight).

Well, they were pro-town strategies; tactics that I had read that might give us a chance of winning. Looking back at the previous game now, I notice that Pizza did this and wasn't jumped on for doing so. And he was town also.

But if mafia were going to pretend to be pro town, they would copy a strategy without analyzing it. It's hard to call someone mafia for proposing a non optimal strategy though, so it isn't a strong argument. But mafia often enter the game with a "let's see, how can I convince them I'm town" strategy. Not all mafia lurk. I remember in another mini mafia we caught one of the scum when he tried to act like he was very pro town but his suggestions were actually flawed.

You were the only person who opposed, and it wasn't that fact which made me believe that you were mafia, but the extent to which you attacked that was suspicious. I'm sorry, but I think any mafia that would post as much as I did, so soon and in such a small game, is a flipping fool.

But see, that's a "mafia wouldn't do this" argument again. I certainly posted a bunch didn't I? And you suspected me. Pkev as my scumpartner in taormina used the "I wouldn't post this much as new mafia" argument successfully.

As we now know, the game was won by Double A essentially keeping a low profile throughout and only really coming out of the woodwork to vote or defend himself. You mentioned Schrödinger's Cat as your method of eliminating him as a suspect... if you'd allowed others to post themselves rather than jumping on what I said from the get-go, perhaps you might have noticed more suspect behaviour.

I didn't eliminate him as a suspect...that was the point. He was either guilty or innocent, we wouldn't know until he started posting more. But most people (townies included) only have a handful of posts in these mini games. So you pick a gut feel and push it. You say yourself you became more scummy as you defended yourself.

I implied you were town, though you had to read between the lines to find it, but this was merely a technique to gauge your response; I had been weary of you from the get-go. As Beskar text me earlier "you were arguing it was Sasaki all along and I thought it was Methos or Double A". My vote on the final day was justified in how you had been behaving throughout the game, and several players I spoke to via PM agreed with me.

I don't understand the technique :/

In trying to defend myself against your early arguments, I made myself out to be more scummy, but in turn you were making yourself appear scummy in what I assume were attempts to make me crack and admit who I was or whatever the purpose of all that pressure was. The suggestion of "Secura investigates Methos, Methos investigates Secura" was one of the things that stood out not just to me, but at least two others I spoke to as well.

But if you think that was scummy, then you see why saying "I don't mind everyone investigating me" is scummy.

The town losing the game cannot be attributed solely to me, surely? :/

Of course not, I didn't manage to convince you.

But that wasn't the point of this post-game discussion. I just wanted to explain why I found you so suspicious. At least you know I play like this as town...it really works the best in these kinds of games. You don't get mafia lynched without latching on and attacking them. Mafia will always put up as reasonable a defense as possible.

[Secura]

WIFOM doesn't work well as a defense though. If you try and use it to defend yourself, people who think you are suspicious will always take the mafia side of the wifom. I know this from many many past experiences, lol. You didn't exactly believe what I said about "I wouldn't have switched my vote to double A if I was mafia" did you?

All those kind of arguments don't work well, and are most often used by mafia when the don't have any other defense.

I should have known this based upon my own experiences as both town and mafia; it's the sort of arguments I remember making as a complete newbie to the game; I lapsed right back into it under pressure, which sucks.

But if mafia were going to pretend to be pro town, they would copy a strategy without analyzing it. It's hard to call someone mafia for proposing a non optimal strategy though, so it isn't a strong argument. But mafia often enter the game with a "let's see, how can I convince them I'm town" strategy. Not all mafia lurk. I remember in another mini mafia we caught one of the scum when he tried to act like he was very pro town but his suggestions were actually flawed.

Well, I did analyse them privately, but I agree that perhaps not doing so publicly could draw attention to what I was saying; from previous places where I played, mafia were more prone to lurking then making blatant stand-out-in-the-crowd posts like I did, so I'm not really familiar with mafia leaping out and trying to be pro-town like that.

I didn't eliminate him as a suspect...that was the point. He was either guilty or innocent, we wouldn't know until he started posting more. But most people (townies included) only have a handful of posts in these mini games.

That's the thing... I think people should have actively posted more. Day One and Two were pretty quiet and discussion only really kicked off when we reached the final phase. There was never any real pressure for the quieter people (in this case, Methos and Double A) to come out and post... perhaps I should've thrown a vote out there to put some pressure on, but by that point I think it was firmly on me anyway. :P

So you pick a gut feel and push it. You say yourself you became more scummy as you defended yourself.

Yes, exactly. I felt that my first posts were actually fairly innocent; it was my attempts to defend the small holes you found that led to me appearing increasingly scummy. It's been a while since I've had to react to that much pressure piled upon me, and it was arguably harder to deal with than previous occasions because this time, I knew I was a townie, and I knew that if I was lynched, the town's chances of winning were going to decrease.

I don't understand the technique :/

Granted, it sounds better in my head, and it wasn't entirely successful. It's difficult to explain, and probably not worth the time.

But if you think that was scummy, then you see why saying "I don't mind everyone investigating me" is scummy.

Well, what stood out about myself and Methos investigating each other was that I knew that Methos (or Double A) was going to be killed; it would have worked out amazingly well for the mafia if Methos had been killed in those circumstances; my result on him would have been discredited (he's dead, coulda made it up) and his result on me couldn't have been revealed. I could have argued "why would I kill him and make myself more suspicious?", but based upon how much my previous arguments had been torn apart, I'd have been fighting a losing battle. :P

Of course not, I didn't manage to convince you.

Well, in the end, you actually did... I wasn't far off posting a Double A vote.

[Methos]

I was hoping DoubleA would post his reasonings for killing the people he did.

[Secura]

I think it was always going to be a case of leaving myself and Sasaki alive to the end; with the pair of us tearing strips off one another, killing us wouldn't have helped him stay under the radar, so to speak.

If both Sasaki and I were dead, it would have meant he would have to post more to avoid the suspicion of you and JHT. :3

[Double A]

Secura, Sasaki, you both played extremly well, and I still don't know how I beat you.

Which reminds me. The game's over, you can stop arguing now

I was hoping DoubleA would post his reasonings for killing the people he did.

N1 was mostly a random pick. Actually, I think I had a reason, but I forgot it.

I picked you so 1) it would make Secura look more guilty, as she could possibly kill her investigator to take less heat off her, and 2) so Sasaki and she would duke it out while I acted like they were both scummy (which you both were acting like) and vote for one of them.

I probably should have first said that Sasaki was innocent, making it seem like I was insane and Secura was sane, which would also take potential heat off me. Sasaki in turn would look very guilty. But instead I just went for the "I'm paranoid and my results don't matter, carry on with the deathmatch" route.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

How were you feeling when I switched to you and secura decided to unvote? Did you think you had it in the bag before then?

Inquiring minds want to know :p

[Double A]

Yeah, which is why I took so long to reply. Like Secura, I tried to go to sleep, and then I couldn't.

Freakin insomnia.

[Secura]

Hahaha, thanks to Thermal I found out how to read post counts:

Secura: 54
Sasaki: 52
JHT: 32
Methos: 23
Double A: 19

Lurker victory! :P