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Thread: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

  1. #571
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    if a country is going to send people to die in foriegn countries it needs to properly equip them.
    Sure. Absolutely.

    Equally as important, a country that sends people to die in foreign countries needs to, well, accept that people die in a foreign country.

    Operations in southern Afghanistan accounted for nearly £2.6bn, compared with £1.5bn last year. Most of the money was spent on providing tougher armoured vehicles for soldiers who face a growing threat of roadside bombs.
    That's what? Ten extra lives saved? Five? £55 to £110 million per life then.

    Harsh as it may sound, a government can put a price on a life. Not a monetary value, but an amount where it is no longer sensible to save this life. £100 million to save a single life, as above, is not sensible policy. Spending another £1.5 billion to save ten, or even fifty, lives more with some helicopters is decidedly unsensible too.
    One faces two dilemmas:
    - Saving a single soldier would come at the cost of a perverse amount of civilian lives that remain unsaved
    - £1.1 billion, another £1.5 billion - how many more lives - and I'm just talking UK military - would be saved if this money was invested in developing Afghanistan?

    The UK loses about 30 lives annually in Afghanistan. The costs to save one more grow exponentially. Where does one draw the line? At a billion quid for a single life, at the expense of five thousand British civilian lives?
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 03-18-2010 at 01:54.
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  2. #572
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Sure. Absolutely.

    Equally as important, a country that sends people to die in foreign countries needs to, well, accept that people die in a foreign country.

    That's what? Ten extra lives saved? Five? £55 to £110 million per life then.

    Harsh as it may sound, a government can put a price on a life. Not a monetary value, but an amount where it is no longer sensible to save this life. £100 million to save a single life, as above, is not sensible policy. Spending another £1.5 billion to save ten, or even fifty, lives more with some helicopters is decidedly unsensible too.
    One faces two dilemmas:
    - Saving a single soldier would come at the cost of a perverse amount of civilian lives that remain unsaved
    - £1.1 billion, another £1.5 billion - how many more lives - and I'm just talking UK military - would be saved if this money was invested in developing Afghanistan?

    The UK loses about 30 lives annually in Afghanistan. The costs to save one more grow exponentially. Where does one draw the line? At a billion quid for a single life, at the expense of five thousand British civilian lives?
    The UK loses far more than 30 lives:

    2009 January 6.
    2009 February 6.
    2009 March 3.
    2009 April 1.
    2009 May 12.
    2009 June 4.
    2009 July 22.
    2009 August 19.
    2009 September 8.
    2009 October 6.
    2009 November 12.
    2009 December 9

    Total last year, 108. Most of those are due either to IEDs or Rocket attacks, both of which are a result of using the Afgan road system. What's more, the death toll in the last 2.5 months is all ready 30, at this rate casualties this year could be around 150. As Britain fights harder and takes on increasing responsibilities casualties will continue to rise unless the soldiers have the proper equipment.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...d-british-data

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    Shaidar Haran Senior Member SAM Site Champion Myrddraal's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    As Britain fights harder and takes on increasing responsibilities casualties will continue to rise unless the soldiers have the proper equipment.
    Not quite right I don't think. As Britain fights harder and takes on increasing responsibilities casualties will continue to rise. Proper equipment doesn't make men invulnerable.

    Louis does have a point, which is that you have to draw the line somewhere, and wherever you draw that line, it will never save everybody.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    and having identified a need to replace old helicopters like the sea-kings which are older even than me, and set aside a £1.5 billion budget to acquire them as a ,military resource that will be needed in any event, it suddenly becomes ok to axe that budget and chop those helicopters when we are fighting a insurgency war in mountainous terrain against an enemy fond of IED's?

    It. Is. Rank. Stupidity.
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrddraal View Post
    Not quite right I don't think. As Britain fights harder and takes on increasing responsibilities casualties will continue to rise. Proper equipment doesn't make men invulnerable.

    Louis does have a point, which is that you have to draw the line somewhere, and wherever you draw that line, it will never save everybody.
    About 60%+ of British casualties ccome from IED's whilst traveling overland. It is a fact that many soldiers die for lack of proper transport. At the same time, Snatch and Sea King both need to be replaced anyway. Loius is right in theory, but very wrong in context.
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    Member Member Boohugh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Saving a single soldier would come at the cost of a perverse amount of civilian lives that remain unsaved
    You used the example of putting the money into the NHS earlier. Well, I'd argue that huge amounts of money have already been thrown at the NHS over the past 10 years and I'd be surprised if it has saved loads of lives and would certainly have cost a huge amount per life saved (the quality of treatment may have increased, but we are talking purely about lives saved here, otherwise we get into the realm of comparing treatment to operational effectiveness, etc). In all honesty, lots of that money has been spent on administrators to count how many people are on the waiting lists and other targets set by the government anyway, so I don't think throwing another £1-2 billion at the NHS will help anyone as most of it doesn't get to the frontline.

    Of course we are off-target on the whole issue of number of soldiers deaths anyway. Myrddraal was absolutely correct when he pointed out that soldiers will die if you send them into a fight, however well equipped they are. It isn't therefore a question of saving lives, rather it is a question of increasing operational effectiveness. More helicopters mean greater mobility, better armoured vehicles mean you can achieve the same firepower with fewer troops and so can then send those spare troops to other places, more UAV's mean better reconnaissance and target acquisition. It's all about force multipliers, not just about saving lives.
    Last edited by Boohugh; 03-18-2010 at 09:45.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Boohugh View Post

    Of course we are off-target on the whole issue of number of soldiers deaths anyway. Myrddraal was absolutely correct when he pointed out that soldiers will die if you send them into a fight, however well equipped they are. It isn't therefore a question of saving lives, rather it is a question of increasing operational effectiveness. More helicopters mean greater mobility, better armoured vehicles mean you can achieve the same firepower with fewer troops and so can then send those spare troops to other places, more UAV's mean better reconnaissance and target acquisition. It's all about force multipliers, not just about saving lives.
    quite correct, having identified a need to replace old helicopters like the sea-kings which are older even than me, and set aside a £1.5 billion budget to acquire them as a military resource that will be needed in any event, when did it suddenly becomes ok to axe that budget and chop those helicopters when we are fighting a insurgency war in mountainous terrain against an enemy fond of IED's?

    i am repeating myself, but the message does not appear to be getting through to some.
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    Shaidar Haran Senior Member SAM Site Champion Myrddraal's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    i am repeating myself
    I think we all heard you, and I think we would all agree. I'm curious to know how you reconcile what you're saying with the development of these new aircraft carriers, which cost a fortune. Do you still think the money couldn't be better spent elsewhere? Perhaps on some helicopters?

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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    I think we all heard you, and I think we would all agree. I'm curious to know how you reconcile what you're saying with the development of these new aircraft carriers, which cost a fortune. Do you still think the money couldn't be better spent elsewhere? Perhaps on some helicopters?
    Admirals interview on aircraft carriers :P
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrddraal View Post
    I think we all heard you, and I think we would all agree. I'm curious to know how you reconcile what you're saying with the development of these new aircraft carriers, which cost a fortune. Do you still think the money couldn't be better spent elsewhere? Perhaps on some helicopters?
    there is nothing to reconcile.

    the government determines foriegn policy goals and capabilities, and then provides funds to enable them.

    the government determined a requirement for expeditioanry war and thus carriers, and i am happy to go along with that.

    the above is totally separate from determining a need, creating a budget, then deleting the budget in order to boost a domestic program, while the original need still exists.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Disregarding the provocative nature of Idaho's last post, he hits bulls eye in his depiction of defense spending.

    The military has an insatiable appetite, and this appetite is skewed towards its near fetish like love for shiny new toys. Toys that look so good in the defense glossy, in the arms show, in the smooth talk of the interational arms dealer as he treats defense hotshots and magazine editors to a nice night out filled with champagne and hookers.


    These calls for ever more and ever new shiny toys - reinforced in recent years by the moral blackmail of 'our boys dieing in the desert unless....' - actually undermines the effective power of the armed forces and creates more casualties for the ordinary soldier.

    Quote Originally Posted by UKIPgraph
    In a strongly-worded criticism on Ministry of Defence equipment programmes, John Hutton has urged ministers to be “leaner and meaner” in making decisions on costly equipment programmes.
    The former Defence Secretary, who resigned for family reasons at the height of the challenge to Gordon Brown’s premiership in June, said that the major equipment programmes needed to be “radically improved” and management of them required “greater professionalism”.


    Despite attempts to improve efficiency “the miserable and lengthy catalogue of equipment delays and cost overruns has continued to cast a large question mark in the public's mind over whether we are getting proper value for the money we spend” he said during a speech given to the think-tank City Forum at a conference called Acquisition in Time of War.



    With the recession putting further pressure on the MoD’s £38 billion budget, a “business as usual approach” was no longer sufficient.“Decision making in the MoD should be leaner and meaner so we avoid the perils of mission-creep and over-specification,” he said.

    Too much focus was also put on acquiring “the most technologically advanced” weapons at the expense of a wider range of more simplistic and available equipment, he argued. Instead of equipping the Armed Forces for a traditional state-on-state war Britain needed to be better equipped “for the threats we actually face today” of international terrorism, irregular warfare and counter insurgency.



    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...ry-argues.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by PVC
    Total last year, 108. this year could be around 150.

    In other words, "I refute you."
    I rather innocently divided the 275 total fatalities in Afghanistan by nine years to get a rough amount. However, the increase in fatalities over the past years is clear. 100-150 fatalities per year is the more relevant amount.

    Does it refute the underlying principle though? Is it sensible to increase the budget by £1 billion to decrease the fatality rate from 100 to 80? To increase it by £2.5 billion to go down from 80 to 70?
    A state has many responsabillities. Several billion pounds could do a lot to decrease crime in the UK, to improve healthcare or education, to decrease taxes.
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  12. #582
    Member Member Boohugh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    John Hutton using the argument of equipment delays and cost overruns as a reason why defence procurement needs to be changed is hypocrisy at its worst. The Labour government made a conscious decision to delay a range of equipment programmes to save money in the short term with the full knowledge it will cause costs to increase and overrun the orginal budget. Who would have thought politicians are more interested in short-term savings at the expense of substantially increasing long term costs?!

    And to be honest, I'm struggling to keep myself falling from my chair laughing at Hutton's approach to the current and future security situation with regards to potential threats. Even the recent defence green paper, published by his own government, disagrees with his assessment. So forgive me for ignoring what that man says with regards to defence policy, it's really no wonder he only lasted 8 months in the post!

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Disregarding the provocative nature of Idaho's last post, he hits bulls eye in his depiction of defense spending.

    The military has an insatiable appetite, and this appetite is skewed towards its near fetish like love for shiny new toys. Toys that look so good in the defense glossy, in the arms show, in the smooth talk of the interational arms dealer as he treats defense hotshots and magazine editors to a nice night out filled with champagne and hookers.

    These calls for ever more and ever new shiny toys - reinforced in recent years by the moral blackmail of 'our boys dieing in the desert unless....' - actually undermines the effective power of the armed forces and creates more casualties for the ordinary soldier.

    I rather innocently divided the 275 total fatalities in Afghanistan by nine years to get a rough amount. However, the increase in fatalities over the past years is clear. 100-150 fatalities per year is the more relevant amount.

    Does it refute the underlying principle though? Is it sensible to increase the budget by £1 billion to decrease the fatality rate from 100 to 80? To increase it by £2.5 billion to go down from 80 to 70?
    A state has many responsabillities. Several billion pounds could do a lot to decrease crime in the UK, to improve healthcare or education, to decrease taxes.
    none of which changes:
    the government determines foriegn policy goals and capabilities, and then provides funds to enable them.

    the government determined a requirement for expeditioanry war and thus carriers, and i am happy to go along with that.

    the above is totally separate from determining a need, creating a budget, then deleting the budget in order to boost a domestic program, while the original need still exists.
    or this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    and having identified a need to replace old helicopters like the sea-kings which are older even than me, and set aside a £1.5 billion budget to acquire them as a ,military resource that will be needed in any event, it suddenly becomes ok to axe that budget and chop those helicopters when we are fighting a insurgency war in mountainous terrain against an enemy fond of IED's?

    It. Is. Rank. Stupidity.
    or this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    quite correct, having identified a need to replace old helicopters like the sea-kings which are older even than me, and set aside a £1.5 billion budget to acquire them as a military resource that will be needed in any event, when did it suddenly becomes ok to axe that budget and chop those helicopters when we are fighting a insurgency war in mountainous terrain against an enemy fond of IED's?

    i am repeating myself, but the message does not appear to be getting through to some.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 03-18-2010 at 23:25.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    France has offered to create a joint UK-French nuclear deterrent by sharing submarine patrols.


    Officials from both countries have discussed how a deterrence-sharing scheme might work but Britain has so far opposed the idea on the grounds that such pooling of sovereignty would be politically unacceptable.


    Britain and France each maintain "continuous at-sea deterrence", which involves running at least one nuclear-armed submarine submerged and undetected at any given time. It is a hugely expensive undertaking, and its usefulness in a post-cold war world has long been questioned by disarmament campaigners.


    Britain's independent deterrent, based on Trident missiles carried by submarines, could cost the country up to £100bn, according to some estimates, once planned modernisation to the fleet has been completed.
    France also maintains a four-submarine Strategic Oceanic Force, with each submarine armed with 16 missiles.
    Go one then. Do it. Save us all tens of billions.

    There is no realistic scenario in which either country would need nuclear deterrent without the other too.

    We don't both need to spend one hundred billion to have four submarines up and running.
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    Shaidar Haran Senior Member SAM Site Champion Myrddraal's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    because we've only just found out about these problems and in any case by the time this aircraft comes into service (if it ever does) I shall be long retired as indeed will all of my collegues and so it'll be somebody elses problem


    there is nothing to reconcile.

    the government determines foriegn policy goals and capabilities, and then provides funds to enable them.

    the government determined a requirement for expeditioanry war and thus carriers, and i am happy to go along with that.

    the above is totally separate from determining a need, creating a budget, then deleting the budget in order to boost a domestic program, while the original need still exists.
    ... ...

    You're repeating yourself. Again. Even though I think I recall saying that I think we all agree that flip flopping on budget's is a bad principle. What do you want me to say? Repeat "I agree" every time you repost the same post word for word?

    You seem to have a really blinkered view of defence spending. If it's going to be spent on defence, it must be a good thing, regardless of whether it's necessary defence spending, whether the money could be better spend domestically or even within the MoD. That's why I brought up the aircraft carriers. They're enormously expensive and have been approved because they are big, visible statistics creators for politicians to shout about. I would be a happy man if they spend every penny of those billions on buying proper boots and vests for the troops (and ... wait for it ... yes helicopters too). So do you think it's possible for investment in the army to be a bad thing, or is it infallible by default?

    But please, I know you're not going to address these points. I know exactly what you're going to post next... word for word.
    Last edited by Myrddraal; 03-19-2010 at 05:09.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Go one then. Do it. Save us all tens of billions.

    There is no realistic scenario in which either country would need nuclear deterrent without the other too.

    We don't both need to spend one hundred billion to have four submarines up and running.
    coordinating patrol zones is a good thing, can't have subs bumping into each other like last year, but operational independance will always be important:
    "We could not make a full commitment," a defence source said, referring to the deployment of carriers. He referred to the British intervention in Sierra Leone 10 years ago and Iraq. France did not "want to have anything to do with" either operation, the source said.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrddraal View Post
    You're repeating yourself. Again. Even though I think I recall saying that I think we all agree that flip flopping on budget's is a bad principle. What do you want me to say? Repeat "I agree" every time you repost the same post word for word?

    You seem to have a really blinkered view of defence spending. If it's going to be spent on defence, it must be a good thing, regardless of whether it's necessary defence spending, whether the money could be better spend domestically or even within the MoD. That's why I brought up the aircraft carriers. They're enormously expensive and have been approved because they are big, visible statistics creators for politicians to shout about. I would be a happy man if they spend every penny of those billions on buying proper boots and vests for the troops (and ... wait for it ... yes helicopters too). So do you think it's possible for investment in the army to be a bad thing, or is it infallible by default?

    But please, I know you're not going to address these points. I know exactly what you're going to post next... word for word.
    that's because you have zero understanding of the strategic priorities of britain.

    no, i read the SDR 98 which mandated the strategic requirement for carriers, because carriers would form an essential part of what was deemed to be a strategic military capability; expeditionary and amphibious warfare.
    in addition to that, there is also the need to maintain and upgrade other extant military capabilities, one of which is helicopter support, so as part of the broader strategy outlined in SDR 98 these abilities were costed and Labour intended to pay for it by maintaining Defence at 2.5% of GDP, which was labours own agreed stable baseline for peacetime Defence spending.
    and yet, after eight years of continuous war in two countries the defence budget has slipped to 2.1% of GDP, so there isn't enough cash to pay for the helicopters that were agreed to be required, and budgeted to be paid for, so in 2008 brown scraps the £1.5 billion budget set aside for new helicopters............................. at a time when troops are dieing unnecessarily in afghanistan because our 40 year old sea-kings that should have retired a decade ago are incapable of usefully flying in such hot-and-high conditions, and they are forced to travel in poorly armoured vehicles by road.

    yes, you do know what i am going to say, but you have no idea why, because you have zero understanding of the strategic priorities of britain.
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    Member Member Boohugh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrddraal View Post
    That's why I brought up the aircraft carriers. They're enormously expensive and have been approved because they are big, visible statistics creators for politicians to shout about.
    From a purely geostrategic point of view, over half the worlds population lives within 200km of the coast and this figure will only increase in the next 10-20 years, so I can totally see why it wouldn't be important to be able to exert control and influence over these areas .

    Being able to project military power in any area of the world at any time is realistically limited to 3 countries currently (USA, UK and France), why would we want to give up that ability when coastal regions are likely to become increasingly important over the next 50 years (the lifetime of the 2 carriers being built)? We can't necessarily rely on other countries providing airbases and other logistical support in an increasingly unreliable, fractured political situation so giving up our ability to project airpower abroad would be foolhardy in my opinion. The fact we are currently involved in a war in a landlocked country does not mean it will be the next war we fight too (if anything it makes it more unlikely!). There is no point in now procuring huge amounts of equipment to fight in Afganistan at the cost of other projects because by the time it is ready we will have moved on, only to realise we've given up our ability to intervene somewhere else when we really need it.

    I'm not against investment in the army (and proper boots and vests cost peanuts against other projects, which is why it's such a travesty even these essential items weren't provided in sufficient quantity thanks to Labour dithering and budget control/cuts), but if you are going to invest in the army at the cost of an almost unique ability in the world then I don't see that being a good thing.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    the nasty party shows its true colours:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ja...-goes-nuclear/
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    pardon my klatchian Member al Roumi's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    the nasty party shows its true colours:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ja...-goes-nuclear/
    That is funny. The more details the Tories provide, the less they actually have to offer of difference to the other parties.

  21. #591
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Boohugh View Post
    From a purely geostrategic point of view, over half the worlds population lives within 200km of the coast and this figure will only increase in the next 10-20 years, so I can totally see why it wouldn't be important to be able to exert control and influence over these areas .

    Being able to project military power in any area of the world at any time is realistically limited to 3 countries currently (USA, UK and France), why would we want to give up that ability when coastal regions are likely to become increasingly important over the next 50 years (the lifetime of the 2 carriers being built)? We can't necessarily rely on other countries providing airbases and other logistical support in an increasingly unreliable, fractured political situation so giving up our ability to project airpower abroad would be foolhardy in my opinion. The fact we are currently involved in a war in a landlocked country does not mean it will be the next war we fight too (if anything it makes it more unlikely!). There is no point in now procuring huge amounts of equipment to fight in Afganistan at the cost of other projects because by the time it is ready we will have moved on, only to realise we've given up our ability to intervene somewhere else when we really need it.

    I'm not against investment in the army (and proper boots and vests cost peanuts against other projects, which is why it's such a travesty even these essential items weren't provided in sufficient quantity thanks to Labour dithering and budget control/cuts), but if you are going to invest in the army at the cost of an almost unique ability in the world then I don't see that being a good thing.
    I agree completely, but would go further and point out that we are a nation occupying a group of Islands, giving up the ability to project force via our Navy is simply absurd. I would further point out that flying troops and gear to places is not remotely practical or economic.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    I would further point out that flying troops and gear to places is not remotely practical or economic.
    it is the key to the defence of the falklands.

    the FDF is just big enough to make a successful assault impossible, and a full scale invasion will be blindinly visible to UK sig-int/com-int, and we can reinforce the island quicker than they can build up an invasion force man enough to wipe out the FDF, so its a lose lose situation for the Argies.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Will Unite's socialists become Cameron's stormtroopers?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/c...mtroopers.html
    The Tories have been slow to make capital out of Labour's militant union allies, argues Charles Moore.


    By Charles Moore
    Published: 7:27PM GMT 19 Mar 2010

    "If she comes to power, it will be wholly because of the trade unions… Moss Evans and his T & G have acted as her stormtroopers." So wrote Bernard Donoughue, head of Jim Callaghan's Downing Street Policy Unit, in his diary. It was early 1979, and Callaghan's Labour government was in the middle of the economic crisis that would ensure its defeat by Margaret Thatcher. That May, come to power she did.

    Here we are in early 2010, in the middle of an economic crisis. For the first time since that "Winter of Discontent", there is a real possibility that a Conservative Opposition will kick out a Labour government. An election is expected in May.

    And here we are, once again, with what Donoughue, a lifelong Labour man, called the stormtroopers. The "T & G" which he denounced was the Transport and General Workers Union, the largest union in the country, led by Moss Evans. Today, the T & G has amalgamated with Amicus and changed its name to Unite (though its fractious internal arrangements suggest that it would better be known as Divide). Unite is led by Tony Woodley. From today, he is pitting his union against hundreds of thousands of holidaymakers in a strike designed to break the will of British Airways, which could go bust. And yesterday Unite's traditional allies in the rail union RMT promised an Easter strike of signal workers.

    Mr Woodley is backed by the faction in his union called United Left, which declares that it wants "a socialist economic, social and political system", and wishes to "regain" the Labour Party. It has a motion down for the union's policy conference after the election that calls for the union to "give no support" to any Labour MPs who do not seek to abolish the "anti-trade union laws". This threat could be powerful: Labour campaigns in 148 constituencies are funded by Unite, and 167 Labour MPs and candidates are members of the union. Unite produces a quarter of Labour's money.

    Mr Woodley's future co-general secretary is Len McCluskey, who is also supported by United Left. In Liverpool in the 1980s, he admits ("I would never, ever deny that"), he backed the Militant Tendency, the most famous extreme "entryist" organisation in Labour history. "I led lots of strikes," he boasts. You can read discussions of his Left-wing heroism on the website Though Cowards Flinch (a phrase from "The Red Flag").

    Unite's political director is Charlie Whelan. Once he was Gordon Brown's spin doctor, and now he is back. Thinly disguised in flat cap and spectacles, he passes in and out of No 10 Downing Street. He is organising Unite to run the campaign in the marginal seats. He is Mr Brown's main adviser on how to fight the election.


    The relation between the unions and the Government is even closer than in 1979. Then, poor old Jim Callaghan was trying, unsuccessfully, to hold the unions back. Today, Mr Brown is leaning heavily on the unions for his survival. And if he falls, Unite will anoint his closest associate, Ed Balls, as his heir.

    Politically, this looks like an open goal for the Conservatives. But it is only this week that the Tories have started to kick the ball in the right direction. In the Commons, David Cameron asked the Prime Minister whether BA workers should cross picket-lines, a question Mr Brown dare not answer.

    Why has it taken so long? Why are the Tories so slow to bang home the political points? It sometimes feels as if the Tory defeat of 1997 was the equivalent of the Mull of Kintyre helicopter crash which wiped out our best security experts in Northern Ireland. An entire generation of knowledge perished. Since 2005, it is true, the party has got much better at presenting itself and developing policies in tune with people's desires. But it still resembles a boxer who prances around giving good pre-fight interviews, but then doesn't want to box in the ring. The Tories are not political, in the limited but vital sense of that word – knowing how to attack, how to behave when attacked, and how to keep on attacking.

    And that is the one skill that Labour has preserved. The country is bust; the public services are broken; we're all getting poorer. Yet, still, somehow, Labour can hit harder than its opponents.

    Witness the Lord Ashcroft row. There has always been a case for keeping Lord Ashcroft at arm's length. He is a classic example of the rugged individualist. The party could have decided that a man who had so much power over a foreign country [Belize], and who wished to remain a "non-dom" taxpayer while living here, was a bit too rugged.

    There has always been a case – a stronger one, in my view – for making full use of Lord Ashcroft. He is most unusual among multi-millionaires in being acute about politics and dedicated in his political work. His booklet, Smell the Coffee, is the best single analysis of why the Tories lost three elections in a row. His organisational focus on marginal seats is a key piece of work. And none of the lurid accusations thrown at him has been proved.

    But the Tories have never quite sorted out what they think about him. Lord Ashcroft's non-dom status could have been defended – despite what is now claimed, it was accepted at the time by the authorities in charge of scrutinising peerages, and, besides, all parties have non-dom peers. Or the Tories could have told him that it looked bad and he must change it. Instead, they took his help and money, but adopted a "don't ask, don't tell" approach to his tax position.

    No one sets out better than Lord Ashcroft himself how this Government plays rough. In his amazing book about it all, Dirty Politics, Dirty Times, Ashcroft explains how Labour suborned government officials to leak material against him, including the traditionally sacrosanct discussions between the parties about honours. Unlike too many current Tories, Ashcroft is phenomenally tough, as well as rich. He sued the Government for its leaks and extracted an apology and legal costs in 2003. So the Tories have known that Labour had government documents it was capable, if desperate, of abusing again. The election approaches, and it is desperate, so it leaks once more, to a pliant BBC. But the Tories were not ready. Don't they know there's a war on?

    I am not arguing that the Conservatives should follow Labour down the path of lies. But I am very suspicious of the frame of mind that shirks the election battle, saying: "Oh no, we are better people than they are." It is a loser's argument, just at the point when they could, at last, win.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 03-20-2010 at 10:18.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  24. #594
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    it is the key to the defence of the falklands.

    the FDF is just big enough to make a successful assault impossible, and a full scale invasion will be blindinly visible to UK sig-int/com-int, and we can reinforce the island quicker than they can build up an invasion force man enough to wipe out the FDF, so its a lose lose situation for the Argies.
    The Falklands is a special case, fighters, tanks, and munitions are kept in hardened bunkers so that only troops need to be flown in at short notice. However, flying equipment and munitions in is not economical.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    true enough.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    ah, how i want to see this scum broken once again:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/tr...-strikers.html
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/7...-nonsense.html
    Last edited by Furunculus; 03-21-2010 at 11:06.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  26. #596
    Ultimate Member tibilicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Enough about numbers and defence! Let's bring in a new topic.

    A possible "spring of discontent" (it won't happen and it's all media hype, but still) might make this election a little more interesting. Personally I think the whole BA strike is a joke and the cabin crew staff are shooting themselves in the foot. I'm more interested on which party can successfully capitalise on it though Mind you, at the minute, my money's on neither. Gordon's in a sticky situation seeming he takes cash from Unite and Cameron so far has failed to really capitalise on so many opportunities thrown his way.

    I have a feeling this election won't be about who's the winner, more who can prove themselves to be the lesser loser..


    "A lamb goes to the slaughter but a man, he knows when to walk away."

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    sure Defence isn't the only issue, and I am delighted the unions have taken this moment to remind the electorate what labour stand for.

    in other news, Labour urinate more than 50% of the nations wealth up the wall every single year:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-spending.html
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  28. #598
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    A fine piece in the Wall St. Journal today.

    http://blogs.wsj.com/iainmartin/2010...works-part-94/

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Stephen Byers is in hot water. The former cabinet minister is at the centre of a Sunday Times undercover investigation into lobbying and MPs making themselves available for hire to corporate interests keen to influence government policy in their favour.

    He now says that when he was caught on tape he was exaggerating, presumably to impress the fake lobbying firm trying to establish what he could do for them. He denies any wrongdoing.

    An extraordinary spin operation seems to have convinced parts of the BBC that actually there’s not much to see here, and that the real story is that ministers are condemning their former colleagues (well, they would, wouldn’t they, as someone from another scandal once put it). And also that Gordon Brown is determined to take action against lobbyists, something he seems to have overlooked in either the last three or 13 years.

    Ultimately, this story just demonstrates, yet again, how corporatism works. When government is too powerful, free markets are too weak and competition insufficient, companies (clearly not stupid) will realise quickly that the main route to getting what they want lies in convincing government to give it to them. Thus doing business and making money hangs on who you know in power and what they can do for you — rather than in just making better products than your rivals and selling them to customers.

    For a users manual, read Byers comments to The Sunday Times about National Express and the Department of Transport:

    “He regards his greatest success, however, as his “work” for National Express when the company was in negotiation with the government over its loss-making rail franchises that cost £1.4 billion. This is how he tells the story: “They approached me, June of last year, and said, ‘We’ve got a huge problem. We want to get out of the East Coast main line but not pay a huge penalty and we want to keep the other two franchises as long we can’.“So between you and I, I then spoke to Andrew Adonis, the transport secretary, and said, ‘Andrew, look, they’ve got a huge problem. Is there a way out of this?’ And then we, we sort of worked together — basically, the way he was comfortable doing it and you have to keep this very confidential yourself.”

    “He [Adonis] said we shouldn’t be involved in the detailed negotiation between his civil servants and National Express but we can give them a broad steer. So we basically got to a situation where we agreed with Andrew he would publicly be very critical of National Express and talk about, ‘I’m going to strip you of the franchise’ and be very gung-ho.“And we said we will live with that and we won’t challenge you in the court, provided you then let us out by December, by the end of the year, and we can keep the other two franchises for a little longer. So, and that’s what we managed to do.”

    See how it works? “They’ve got a huge problem… so I spoke to Andrew… then we sort of worked together… broad steer… we will Iive with that and won’t challenge you in the court, provided you then let us out… that’s what we managed to do…”

    We live, more than ever, in a corporatist world - as the conduct in recent years of some of the biggest banks demonstrates.

    There’s a great piece (also in the Sunday Times) from Michael Lewis (of Liar’s Poker fame) which in passing notes the corporatist aspects of the financial crisis.

    “A few Wall Street CEOs were fired for their roles in the sub-prime mortgage catastrophe, but most remained in their jobs and they, of all people, became important characters operating behind closed doors, trying to figure out what to do next. With them were a handful of government officials — the same government officials who should have known a lot more about what Wall Street firms were doing, back when they were doing it.”

    What Lewis describes is not free-marketeering. It’s corporatism, a conspiracy between two powerful interests: government and institutions. The loser is the consumer and the taxpayer.


    I liked this quote....

    Bravo, This is something I have been pointing out for years to anyone who will listen. We do not have a free market system in the UK, We are not a socialist, or a capitalist system. Neither of the main parties supports free-markets or capitalism or socialism. They are both corporatists. we are seeing the “third way” started by Blair and continued by both Brown and Cameron. The third way is a form of Privatisation that is very different from what Thatcher did. With BT and British Gas, etc. Vast and inefficient public monoliths were sold to ordinary everyday people. We could have a direct and valuable share in the ownership, instead of an indirect and value-less state ownership. Additionally, the state stopped stealing money from the tax-payer to fund these and left the cost to the customer.

    Modern privatisations see parts of state owned “assets” sold in private to elite cronies and the cost is STILL borne by the tax-payer. It is a merger between state and Corporation. This removes democratic oversight and privatises the profits whilst socialising the losses. We have seen something similar with the banking system, with a part nationalisation. Again, this was done to socialise the losses but keep the profits and bonuses flowing. This is NOT socialism, nor is it capitalism. This is Corporatism which is also known as Fascism.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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  29. #599
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    true enough.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    ah, how i want to see this scum broken once again:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/tr...-strikers.html
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/7...-nonsense.html
    Usual anti-union smear tactics. This stuff is as old as the hills.

    People like you think that it's fine for business to maximise it's legal rights to make money, but not for people to group together to protect their jobs.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  30. #600
    Member Member Boohugh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    People like you think that it's fine for business to maximise it's legal rights to make money, but not for people to group together to protect their jobs.
    But when they start to destroy the company they work for and all end up with no job because the company goes bust it seems rather counter-productive, no? Trade union activity helped kill off other British industries such as coal, steel and carmaking, why will airlines be any different? A company shouldn't be able to walk roughshod over its workers, but equally the workers (through trade unions) shouldn't stop the business being just that...a viable business.

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