Whats happened to this forum?

[Andres]

I think we must be careful not to become too pessimistic.

Apparently, the .Org audience and E:TW didn't match very well. It happens. Can't force one to love a game he doesn't like

However, I'm still a proud member of this community. We have some real gems at this place, wonderful people who can debate about a wide range of subjects in an intelligent, civilised and mature way. There's a lot of potential at this place and pessimism will get us nowhere. In fact, exaggerated pessimism will eventually lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[gollum]

Indeed pessimism can be fatal, and it should be avoided.

However so can be inaction in the face of factual signs, inability or indifference to read factual signs and wrong choices as to how to react to challenges and the changing times - in certain instances. It is in light of these that some, in good will and as loving members of the org, speak.

[Andres]

Indeed pessimism can be fatal, and it should be avoided.

However so can be inaction in the face of factual signs, inability or indifference to read factual signs and wrong choices as to how to react to challenges and the changing times - in certain instances. It is in light of these that some, in good will and as loving members of the org, speak.

Ah dear gollum, but for all our disagreement about .Org policy concerning MP, I really appreciate your insights, contributions, opinions and concerns.

You're one of those gems I was talking about

[gollum]

[Kadagar_AV]

I also noticed a downfall of participants... I would say it is because of 2 things:

1. The TW serie just does not hold up... Shogun was great, medieval quite ok, rome a disaster untill patched... Then they still havent sorted problems with medieval 2 and dont even get me STARTED on empire...

Think medieval 2 was the killer, they launched a game with an inactive AI... Most people had 15min of fun surrounding opposite army with cannons before moving on to games that cared about their customers and had some beta-testers (note that major bugs are still not fixed).

2. That is why the forum has lost life cause of the GAME SERIES it represents. Another point is that the forum in itself has scared away a lot of members. Either members gets banned for being too immature, or they get banned for being to educated (actually arguing against mainstream). This, at least, is my oppinion.

This leaves a very small bunch of mediocre people, who others have no interest in and who are irrelevant to each other.

Aswell as some KICK ASS people in the very secluded sections, only, new members doesnt even know about them...

As it is now, we lose 2-3 for every 1 we get.

[gollum]

I certainly know were you are coming from Kadagar_AV, but if you notice carefully you'll see that RTW (and to a lesser extent M2) were very much embraced by the org: the Coloseum has nearly 100k posts as much as the Main hall and the Citadel, not to mention the very very frequented RTW modding sections.

They (RTW/M2) most certainly though as you say carried a trend that didn't sit well with the core org members and this was shown finally with ETW. The level of participation for ETW was phenomenal the first month of release; at times 100+ people were hanging around the Parliament. However as the release fever started to recess and the flaws of the game became more and more obvious particiaption droped to quite low levels for a new tw game.

[gollum]

Other reasons that weren't mentioned about geting new members in the org, are that: a) its more difficult to achieve membership status than other forums b) there is a strong line from forum leaders/old members, and c) there is uniformity of appearance.

In fact b) and c) co-operate.

I think that for new/younger members, its far harder to remain interested in the org. Of course its true that these very same points constitute the reasons why for the org's greatest strengths, ie more civilised environment, more deep level of conversation and generally far more tidy behaviour and looks.

However, perhsp forum leaders and the admin, may want to think about putting some amount of water to their wine, as these reasons could potentially be driving away young/new members by appearing as a barrier.

At the same time, as new membership rates fall, forum leaders (moderators/regulars/senior members) become more and more dominant and the place less dynamic and even less accessible.

Perhaps its time to reconsider many of these points, assuming of course that the leaders/admin judge it good to change the status quo.

[Kagemusha]

One thing to consider is that about 1/5th of the active membership use the invisible mode. That makes the forum look more empty. But in the end my opinion is that its up to us members to try and make the forum more interesting and easy to enter by contributing positively to those areas where we frequent. Along the lines: "What can you do to Org, instead of what Org can do to you" .

[Pannonian]

Along the lines: "What can you do to Org" .

If you want to Org, just be patient and you will. Thinking the right thoughts will also help.

[Kagemusha]

If you want to Org, just be patient and you will. Thinking the right thoughts will also help.

Well maybe" for " would have been better word in English.

[gollum]

Well, i base my comments to the "users online" index that seems to showcase everyone online - be it a logged on member or a guest. According to that index and observations made on the same index of the twc, on average, as it has been already stated i think in this thread, twc has 10 times more traffic. Also thread numbers in sub forums are another reliable index, as are the "viewings" index of every sub-forum. I personally think they all tell the same tale.

I doubt that the org is lacking in interest. By all accounts it is interesting if nothing else, but this is not relevant to the point being discussed. In addition, i believe that most regulars, either staff or not do contribute very much, and it couldn't have been otherwise - else they wouldn't be regulars and staff - again its kind of beside the point.

The point is the existing environment of the org and the relationship and interaction between the same and new tw games and new members, as well as the course the org has run and the direction it wishes to follow in the future.

[Kagemusha]

Well, i base my comments to the "users online" index that seems to showcase everyone online - be it a logged on member or a guest. According to that index and observations made on the same index of the twc, on average, as it has been already stated i think in this thread, twc has 10 times more traffic. Also thread numbers in sub forums are another reliable index, as are the "viewings" index of every sub-forum. I personally think they all tell the same tale.

I doubt that the org is lacking in interest. By all accounts it is interesting if nothing else, but this is not relevant to the point being discussed. In addition, i believe that most regulars, either staff or not do contribute very much, and it couldn't have been otherwise - else they wouldn't be regulars and staff - again its kind of beside the point.

The point is the existing environment of the org and the relationship and interaction between the same and new tw games and new members, as well as the course the org has run and the direction it wishes to follow in the future.

Well i am long standing member of both Org and TWC and i can tell you that volume isnt everything but still needed. I dont think Org is hostile to new members to slightest extend. TWC´s growth came mostly with putting priority to modding and expanding amount of specialized subforums, where their "senior" member class,the "citizens" tried their best to contribute by creating interesting threads and posts. Large emphasis is also made on the appearance of forums, while the TWC members have created for example various forum skins.
With ETW and NTW the totalwar modding community will not be the magnet it used to be in times of MTW, RTW and M2TW. Simply because the games are less and less moddable. So if Org wants to survive.My opinion is that we should look into what else this forum can offer to people other then TW content and work on those aspects. In any case i think best way would be by creating a facelift for the old gall by creating bunch of new forum skins. I dont know if Tosa could create a test board where we could test new skins?

[gollum]

I appreciate that you are a long standing member of the community, but you are not the only one.

I doubt very much that the twc became popular only due to being interesting. Modding played certainly a very large part, but so did the fact that twc was far more open as a community, is using the reputation system and has internal politics based on it, it allows custom avatars, by all accounts was open to less mature and younger members and also embraced the newer tw games. To be perfectly honest a large part of the popularity of twc is unwnted from an orgahs point of view and i certainly agree with that. Amidst the accessible and loose environment there is a lot of pettiness, and this certainly also contributes (to its popularity). However, the org may be on the edge of having reached the other end - ie being isolationist due to its conservatism in regards to the tw community.

Volume is not everything - but a certain amount of inflow of new members is needed for the forum to remain dynamic both in terms of environment and participation. The problem is that past a critical point, a "downward spiral" effect may make the effects of lack of inflow sharply dramatic. Such an effect has already taken place; during the RTW years the org and the twc were almost equal. However by the time of M2TW the org lost ground because the trend of M2 was in line to RTW while the org core was expecting a return to pre_RTW gameplay, and because it was known to younger players by that time that twc was more oriented to CA's line. Also the org, being traditionally a bastion of the STW/MTW community that was its core, by the time of M2 was short of knowledgeable leadership in regards to new TW games. The only person that could do so (lead a new tw forum in the org), was econ21, and his absence as a moderator hurt the ETW section. Dont get me wrong; i understand that people come and go - but having only one person for that job (leadership in a new tw game sub forum) isn't exactly a sign of health in terms of participation.

[Kagemusha]

I appreciate that you are a long standing member of the community, but you are not the only one.

I doubt very much that the twc became popular only due to being interesting. Modding played certainly a very large part, but so did the fact that twc was far more open as a community, is using the reputation system and has internal politics based on it, it allows custom avatars, by all accounts was open to less mature and younger members and also embraced the newer tw games. To be perfectly honest a large part of the popularity of twc is unwnted from an orgahs point of view and i certainly agree with that. Amidst the accessible and loose environment there is a lot of pettiness, and this certainly also contributes. However, the org may be on the edge of having reached the other end - ie being isolationist due to its conservatism in regards to the tw community.

Volume is not everything - but a certain amount of inflow of new members is needed for the forum to remain dynamic both in terms of environment and participation. The problem is that past a critical point, a "downward spiral" effect may make the effects of lack of inflow sharply dramatic. Such an effect has already taken place; during the RTW years the org and the twc were almost equal. However by the time of M2TW the org lost ground because the trend of M2 was in line to RTW while the org core was expecting a return to pre_RTW gameplay, and because it was known to younger players by that time that twc was more oriented to CA's line. Also the org, being traditionally a bastion of the STW/MTW community that was its core, by the time of M2 was short of knowledgeable leadership in regards to new TW games. The only person that did so, was econ21, and his absence as a moderator hurt the ETW section. Dont get me wrong; i understand that people come and go - but having only one person for that job (leadership in a new tw game sub forum) isn't exactly a healthy sign.

I never said im the only one and i know one or two things about what happened at TWC during my active days there. But i wont go into commenting anything of it as i dont think it would be fair to either of these forums. I do agree that having likes of DukeJohn, Myrddraal and EpistolaRichrad as moderators in modding section was great thing for Org in the days of RTW when the community was expanding rapidly. Now if the Org doesnt posses such characters for ETW and NTW, that is a bad thing, but you cant force people to do the job if there is no interest.
So to me first thing would be to make Org look fancy enough for new people and work so the subforums would be vibrant. If that would be successful then no doubt we would gain many new interesting people also. Copy catting TWC is not an option as there is one TWC already. Org should adapt to new times, but not by loosing its essence.

[gollum]

This is indeed the core of the matter - change org's hardline in several areas or not.

I dont think that the org should turn into twc, neither i've ever implied that people should be forced to do the job. My comments were simply pointing out that there is a reason why there are few people to do it - because the org's core does not really like new tw.

There are several areas that the org's policy is perhaps too tight for its own good in terms of influx of new members; these are:
1. Avatar policy - even the moderators sounded happy to get new ones with the new infusion of NTW avatars.
2. Junior Member status - often frustrating even.
3. Strong line of the majority, that consists of more mature (age and otherwise) members that creates a strict environment for younger members, and also has often strong and common opinions overall.

Again, dont get me wrong; these are the very same points that are good about the org and indeed make it what it is. And so any changes - if judged appropriate - they should be respectful to the character of the org.

However, it would be rather sad imo for the org to evolve into a slowly dying place due to the lack of influx of members to take up office. Imo again, that's exactly whats happening right now. I;m not an admin, not even staff. But its clear that a crtical point is fast appraoching for the org, in terms of direction, content and demographic. If it is judged that the status quo and its foreseeable future is acceptable, then fine. If not, something's gotta be done in order to strengthen and revitalise the relationship of the org and new tw as well as the demographic.

[Pannonian]

Well i am long standing member of both Org and TWC and i can tell you that volume isnt everything but still needed. I dont think Org is hostile to new members to slightest extend. TWC´s growth came mostly with putting priority to modding and expanding amount of specialized subforums, where their "senior" member class,the "citizens" tried their best to contribute by creating interesting threads and posts. Large emphasis is also made on the appearance of forums, while the TWC members have created for example various forum skins.

The devolved model that TWC uses, where staff are very ready to allow local interests to have limited moderation powers in their own forums, may also contribute towards the dedication that members have towards TWC, which is effectively the gateway and host for their own little forum. And for the more rabid, there is also the abiding feature of TWC, the site politics. I don't think I've seen another internet forum that formally gives its members so many rights, to the eternal frustration of its staff. Thank goodness the scene is saner now than it used to be.

[Kagemusha]

These are indeed important matters and i would like to hear input form more Orgahs concerning these matters. This next thing is just my personal opinion, but for example if we look at ETW modding and we would like to have talented modders as moderators. If i were a admin i would offer full Moderatorship to both Mailman653 and King Louise Assurbanipal. If Fisherking is indeed the heart and soul of ETW forums, maybe he should then indeed run those forums. This is in no way criticizm towards anyone, but i think that those who have the will and enthusiasm, should be able to have means to project that.

We have many great unique things, like the PBEM section,gameroom and chapter house.But i agree that it is the TW section from which new people come in. Maybe for example it should be seriously discussed to drop the whole junior member thing atleast for a time to see if that would cause more trouble then good things.

Edit: Pannonian i think you know my views on site politics? I guess im still one of the only citizens who cant even see the Curia in TWC, which priviledge Imb gave me long time a go.

[gollum]

I very much agree with all you've just posted. Indeed these are very useful suggestions imo.

[Megas Methuselah]

...or they get banned for being to educated (actually arguing against mainstream). This, at least, is my oppinion.

I don't know, man; I'm still here. Though I was banned plenty of times, I think they just sort of gave up on me...

[Pannonian]

Edit: Pannonian i think you know my views on site politics? I guess im still one of the only citizens who cant even see the Curia in TWC, which priviledge Imb gave me long time a go.

You're out of touch man. The politics moved to Q&S long ago, where I was chiefly responsible for fending off the rabble for the best part of a year, tearing out much of my hair in the process. The Curia hasn't seen any controversy since around 2007, and is nowadays chiefly the forum where citizens wander around wondering what the place is for.

[Kagemusha]

You're out of touch man. The politics moved to Q&S long ago, where I was chiefly responsible for fending off the rabble for the best part of a year, tearing out much of my hair in the process. The Curia hasn't seen any controversy since around 2007, and is nowadays chiefly the forum where citizens wander around wondering what the place is for.

Ofcourse im out of touch as i havent even looked at Curia in years. But that job of yours most have given you quite few grey hair. I mainly only hang out in history and science sections of TWC.

[pevergreen]

The only person that could do so (lead a new tw forum in the org), was econ21, and his absence as a moderator hurt the ETW section. Dont get me wrong; i understand that people come and go - but having only one person for that job (leadership in a new tw game sub forum) isn't exactly a sign of health in terms of participation.

May be true. If it wasn't for econ, I'm fairly sure I wouldn't have stuck around.

1. Avatar policy - even the moderators sounded happy to get new ones with the new infusion of NTW avatars.
2. Junior Member status - often frustrating even.
3. Strong line of the majority, that consists of more mature (age and otherwise) members that creates a strict environment for younger members, and also has often strong and common opinions overall.

1. Avatar policy has been voted on a number of times, and though my head says recently, it may have been end of 07 when the last poll happened. The avatars are stuck in TW Themed. Community has voted each time to keep them that way.

2. It can be, but look at how much its been relaxed. When I joined, I could post in the entrance hall only. I had to wait 300 seconds (5 minutes) between every post. Between thread creation, I think it was like 2 and a half days.

3. I don't understand, are you saying that it makes it hard to come into an environment where everyone already knows each other and there is common opinions on stuff? I would agree, but I would also hope that we try to welcome the newer members, as the old Welcoming Committe did, and as many still do.

If i were a admin i would offer full Moderatorship to both Mailman653 and King Louise Assurbanipal. If Fisherking is indeed the heart and soul of ETW forums, maybe he should then indeed run those forums.

Mailman: yes. KLA? He certainly has the ability, but I see no reason why he should become a moderator. If he was inclined in that direction, I'm sure he'd post a bit more in that section, instead of putting his mod stuff in Parliament. If you have mod choice based on ability (like it seems you have done), then the entire structure would change...We'd have Prussian Iron leading the Frontroom, Tribesman leading the Backroom etc etc

[gollum]

Originally posted by pevergreen
1. Avatar policy has been voted on a number of times, and though my head says recently, it may have been end of 07 when the last poll happened. The avatars are stuck in TW Themed. Community has voted each time to keep them that way.

Yes, i know. But this is precisely the point. The conservatism of the community evidently won't be overcome by the community. It needs a bold move, by the administration/staff, assuming of course they judge that such a move is desirable. However "judge" is the keyword. If the org community thinks that this should be treated as a matter of preference, then the current avatar policy may as well stay. However the point is that its far more than that. It is a matter that affects accessibility as well as other things. As such it has to be rethought on that basis, rather than aesthetics only.

2. It can be, but look at how much its been relaxed. When I joined, I could post in the entrance hall only. I had to wait 300 seconds (5 minutes) between every post. Between thread creation, I think it was like 2 and a half days.

To be honest, the ability to edit for junior members is at the centre of this one. Almost all of them seem bewildered at the fact to various degrees (it adds to the embarassment and stress of the newby, especially for first timer and young people), as well as to the fact that they are under "supervision" by mods in order to be awarded membership status. I think this one being taken out would go quite some way towards bringing down accessibility barriers.

3. I don't understand, are you saying that it makes it hard to come into an environment where everyone already knows each other and there is common opinions on stuff? I would agree, but I would also hope that we try to welcome the newer members, as the old Welcoming Committe did, and as many still do.

The environment is precisely the great attraction and strength of the org. The good things about it are that its close knit, mature, having evolved through true fit and over some time, and that it has certain characteristics, admitedly pluralistic but characteristics nevertheless. The bad thing is that the reception and integration processes are quite detailed and slow - hence the close knit. The org lacks dynamic communities within the community as of late (with the notable exception of the EB community), and as time will go by it may well lack more if the demographic trend continues.

Maturity is also a large part of it. Warman was a good example. He had been accepted, given chances and treated nicely and fairly and yet because of that (and not despite) he was unable to integrate because he didn't had the potential to reach the level that would have been acceptable (at this time of his life). Warman behaves far more reasonably in certain instances in the twc, especially when among more immature members than he. This would have been an impossibility here, and so Warman is still to this day - believe it or not - lurking around the org and digging out for supporters, in order to stage his comeback. In short, what has been asked of him, was impossible to him at least for many more years to come, creating in essence a love/hate relationship from his side to this place, because he was implicitly asked to become an "orgah", while the best he could realistically do (and everyone knew it) was a caricature of an orgah. The expectation was unreasonable, and the result predictable. Admitedly Warman;s case is extreme, but it contains a truth; that the org does not have a place for various types of member. It has a place for a certain type of member - that which is akin to what we are here or to the type of member that is willing to become something very much like what we are here. The sieve holes are a little too small, especially given the fact that new tws are adressed to younger players.

Another example is the aforementioned issue about the moderation of teh redoubt - again a community within the community was judged with criteria that would have been valid in the "core" parts of the org, the frontroom, the gameroom or the parliament (or any other sp subforum). That was a mistake and the consequences showed. Whats happening in the reception and integration course of new members as a whole is a similar type of thing. The idiosyncracies of communities within the community are in fact discouraged, hence the homogeneity. Homogeneity however brings eventually lack of tension (harmful and creative) and eventually (lack) of pluralism. The environment finally stagnates.

[pevergreen]

Warman...I don't want to bring that back up. inb4 lock etc

But I disagree that the person must fit. If it was that rigid, you wouldn't have people like PI, or me when I started. Or even now.

As for your last paragraph, in my current state I don't understand most of what you said and so I shall not respond to it.

[gollum]

In fact you and PI are among the few new/young members that "managed" to fit. You in particular are still in the process imo.

As for the last paragraph, i am indebted to your shortsightedness ;)

[Prince Cobra]

Warman...I don't want to bring that back up. inb4 lock etc

But I disagree that the person must fit. If it was that rigid, you wouldn't have people like PI, or me when I started. Or even now.

As for your last paragraph, in my current state I don't understand most of what you said and so I shall not respond to it.

I share a slightly different opinion on Warman. My ghostly account in the TWC is perhaps kept alive because I discuss with Warman various ingame issues. We are very different (if not totally opposite) and that's perhaps what gives charm to our communication. With the suitable approach, he can give a lot to the Org. It is not necessary to agree with everything he says, of course. But more understanding and tolerant. People grow up and change and eventually, this happens with him. I really hope he will return soon and I really hope his impetuous nature won't bring him trouble again. But he certainly deserves a chance. And yes, perhaps we need slightly more impetious people (slightly!)

I would also express my view that permament bans should be in very very limited numbers.

I also think Kage is right. Gollum also has some point as well. Things are changing. The future of the Org. should no longer be tied only with the TW games, I think. We can continue the policy of enlightened absolutism and there is nothing bad in it. I also despise the reputations, perhaps because I never aimed to be popular. But apart from that, I support the changes.

The modifications of the profile were funny but I believe they were temporarily postponed after the update. But a slightly more liberal approach won't harm as well, though trolling should not be tolerated. And once again, the TW alone seem not to be a viable option for the Org. anymore.

[Subedei]

I for my part don´t come here so often any more b/c I do not play mafia games.

As soon as I click on new posts "half" of these are some sort of mafia this, or mafia that. I was used to interesting discussions about history / TW games [esp. EB] and sometimes soccer discussions. Well, I am not the Alpha & Omega of this forum, so just my 2 cents.

[pevergreen]

In fact you and PI are among the few new/young members that "managed" to fit. You in particular are still in the process imo.

As for the last paragraph, i am indebted to your shortsightedness ;)

You calling me young? I joined here on *insert join date here* and i was...15. I am now 19. I have to grow up some time, I guess?

And I'm totally older than Beefy. And maybe GH as well, I forget.

Would you believe that my mental capacity is so low right now that I don't understand what you are saying with that second line?

I would also express my view that permament bans should be in very very limited numbers.

I also think Kage is right. Gollum also has some point as well. Things are changing. The future of the Org. should no longer be tied only with the TW games, I think.

Bans: I don't know of a single perma ban. Warman's ban is only for a year. Plus any extensions added on (if there are any, and if it works like that)

I completely agree that the org needs to accept more games than just Total War, if we want to grow. The simplest expansion, the Paradox games.

[Kagemusha]

Mailman: yes. KLA? He certainly has the ability, but I see no reason why he should become a moderator. If he was inclined in that direction, I'm sure he'd post a bit more in that section, instead of putting his mod stuff in Parliament. If you have mod choice based on ability (like it seems you have done), then the entire structure would change...We'd have Prussian Iron leading the Frontroom, Tribesman leading the Backroom etc etc

I dont think it would hurt asking him. He doesnt seem to post much at all in any site outside his own hosted mod area. Doesnt make him any less capable modder and a nice person. Other then this i completely agree with you on that if Org would expand to other games, which i would see as positive as many of the Orgahs have also moved on from TW. The Paradox games would be obvious group of games to do so.

[pevergreen]

Doesnt make him any less capable modder and a nice person.

No it doesnt. I disagree with some of his posting methods, but he seems to have changed that anyway.

Anyway, moderator selection is a secret and mysterious thing.